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CTD - Proximity Grenade


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#1 Syntax Error

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 07:42 AM

Proximity grenade :


This is not a classical grenade using a timer detonator but a high plastic explosive grenade with a detector of movement that can be used on a battlefield to quickly mine the ground, the grenade explodes when something moves in the vicinity. The deflagration can damage the vehicles and killing your own soldiers, use it with precaution.

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#2 Breunor

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 08:06 AM

Perhaps it should explain a little what the sensor consists of, is it a typical infared sensor like a security light uses? What's the sensor/blast radius (would require playing the original game to determine this, line up soldiers and drop the grenade at the head of the line's feet, then have him move. Nobody should have armor on, then see how far out damage is taken.)

#3 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 09:14 AM

You should make it longer (possibly add a developement history?) and it needs some nice fluff text. Ex" The XG-1 Proximity Grenade is a recent development in modern warfare. It functions like a small mine, detonating when it detects movement nearby..."

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#4 Syntax Error

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 09:33 AM

This grenade not using a timer detonator but a detector of movement that can be used on a battlefield to quickly mine the ground, it is used as a grenade exploding when something moves in the vicinity.
Used for the first time during the war of Viet-Nam in 1967 to trap the entry of the Vietcongs tunnels, the detector of movement was not yet at the point and the soldiers did not rely any on these machines, several accidents were deplored. The unexpected release caused by the wind or an insect was solved by the addition of a second infra-red detector.
The detector of movement is an sonic anemometer able to measure negligible ambient air volume displacement in a radius of 5 meters, it is coupled in an infra-red eye able to identify the origin of a heat source in the same range, which avoids the unexpected explosions.
The deflagration can damage the vehicles and killing your own soldiers in a radius of 10 meters, use it with precaution.

"Damn, these things are great! Put one at both doors of a UFO, and wait for the alien screams."-Cpl. Alex Dupont

And now?

#5 Cartesian

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 09:35 AM

do we want the prox grenades to go off when a flying uit moves close by? if we do, that eliminates vibration.

infra red detection means that firing a laser/plasma near it will set it off as the ground will heat up.

sound means it'll be set off by loud noises like a rifle firing.

what do modern day real life prox grenades use? do we have any?

#6 Breunor

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 10:15 AM

Can we say that the sensor is keyed to only activate with small humanoids or larger, therefore some more fluff text could be "any use of this weapon should be carefully considered when there is a civilian presence, small children can activate the explosives just as easily as a [sectoid]."

I like the use of the anemometer, "ultrasonic and LASER Doppler (which measure the phase shift of sound or coherent light reflected off of moving air molecules)." You could include a line stating that the device has been miniaturized for combat use, and when a combination of sufficient air pressure changes coincide with the motion sensor picking up a physical presence inside the 5 meter range...
:explode:
This would go off when flying units enter its range as well, but for v1 I think we'd say only if the unit is "at ground level" relative to the explosive. What was the effect in the original game? We need to mirror that first, but later versions could reflect a more accurate 3D range feature, that would be cool to blast floaters as they sneak by...

#7 Syntax Error

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Posted 01 December 2003 - 12:01 PM

This grenade not using a timer detonator but a detector of movement that can be used on a battlefield to quickly mine the ground, it is used as a grenade exploding when something moves in the vicinity.
Used for the first time during the war of Viet-Nam in 1967 to trap the entry of the Vietcongs tunnels, the detector of movement was not yet at the point and the soldiers did not rely any on these machines, several accidents were deplored. The unexpected release caused by the wind or an insect was solved by the addition of a second infra-red detector.
The detector of movement is an sonic anemometer able to measure negligible ambient air volume displacement in a radius of 5 meters, it is coupled in an infra-red eye able to identify the origin of a heat source in the same range, which avoids the unexpected explosions.
The device has been miniaturized for combat use, and when a combination of sufficient air pressure changes coincide with the motion sensor picking up a physical presence inside the 5 meter range then the grenade will blow up.
When we will know more about these aliens we could program the detectors to make them more effective and maybe detonate only when one of these s... of a b.... will walk near the grenade but not with a civilian or one of your soldiers.

The deflagration can damage the vehicles and killing your own soldiers in a radius of 10 meters, use it with precaution.


"Damn, these things are great! Put one at both doors of a UFO, and wait for the alien screams."-Cpl. Alex Dupont

#8 Moriarty

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 03:00 PM

I just looked at this and realized that perhaps it is a bit too sophisticated - because this grenade exists from the beginning and the motion scanner has yet to be researched. for the prox grenade, I suppose the simplest possible solution should be used. perhaps it really is just a vibration trigger against ground units. I don't know if the proximity grenade should work against flying units - after all, it is a "low tech" / "pre-alien" weapon, where nobody would even consider the existence of flying enemies. :huh?:
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#9 dan2

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Posted 27 February 2005 - 06:10 PM

Here's my version, I hope it's OK.

[PROXIMITY GRENADE]

[PROXIMITY GRENADE] is powerful explosive device, being thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once landed it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement.
[PROXIMITY GRENADE] is manufactured for X-Corps by contract manufacturers and delivered promptly, enabling our engineers to focus on more stringent jobs, but is powerful enough to allow our soldiers to use it even against very armored enemies. [PROXIMITY GRENADE] is simple in it's construction and doesn't require sophisticated timers, thus allowing more explosive to be packed in it's light titanium shell. This grenade have only one switch, and the manufacturer strongly recommends that after its activation, the grenade should be thrown without much delay to minimize the risk of self damage. The explosive inside is the well known chemical compound RDX, a very stable, but very powerful explosive and the electrothermal detonator is connected to a simple proximity detection system. When very low frequency vibrations are strong enough, characteristic for ground moving targets, a tiny metal coil would begin to resonate with these vibrations until is touching a metal cylinder, thus closing the detonator's circuit. The explosion damages any nearby target from below, and our soldiers must be careful not to get caught in its large blast radius. While our soldiers are fully trained in the usage of the [PROXIMITY GRENADE], it is recommended to be used by only experienced soldiers and accurate records of any such thrown device must be kept in order to prevent injuries or death. Any unused grenade after the battle is collected using long cushioned pliers and deactivated, for future usage.

#10 Astyanax

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 12:03 PM

I hope my comments will be coherent; my mind feels rather dull today. :(

The usual stuff: Red text indicates additions, orange text indicates deletions, and blue text indicates comments or suggestions.

Added [brackets] and capitalizations of the word "Alien" are not denoted, and British spellings are replaced with red-marked American spellings.

[PROXIMITY GRENADE]

The [PROXIMITY GRENADE] is powerful explosive device , being thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once landed it lands, it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement.

The [PROXIMITY GRENADE] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers and delivered promptly, enabling allowing? our engineers to focus on more stringent arduous/specialized tasks? jobs., but Nevertheless, it is powerful remains effective? enough to allow our soldiers to use it even against very to be used against even well-armored enemies targets?.

Because the [PROXIMITY GRENADE]'s is simple in it's construction and doesn't does not require a sophisticated timers, thus allowing more explosives can to be packed in it's its lightweight titanium shell. This grenade have has only one switch, and the manufacturer strongly recommends that after its activation, the grenade should be thrown without much delay shortly after activation to minimize the user's risk of self damage severe/grievous injury/bodily harm.

The explosive inside the [Proximity Grenade] is the well-known chemical compound RDX, a very stable , but yet very powerful explosive, and it is triggered via an the electrothermal detonator is connected to a simple proximity detection system. When very low frequency vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are in the vicinity are strong enough, characteristic for ground moving targets, a tiny metal coil within the proximity detector would begins to resonate in time with these vibrations.  As a target approaches, its vibrations cause this metal coil to resonate with increased intensity/vigor.  When the metal coil's resonance causes it touch a nearby until is touching a metal cylinder, it closes thus closing the detonator's circuit, allowing a small electrical charge to trigger the RDX payload in the next compartment. The resulting? explosion damages any nearby targets from below at ground level?, and our soldiers must be careful should take care not to get caught in its the large blast radius.

While our soldiers are fully trained in the usage uses? of the [PROXIMITY GRENADE], it is recommended to be used by that only experienced soldiers use them since and accurate records of any such thrown explosive device must be kept in order to prevent injuries accidental injury or death at a later time. Any unused Activated [Proximity grenade]s after the battle is collected are salvaged following combat using long cushioned pliers and are carefully deactivated, for future usage.


Edited by Astyanax, 28 February 2005 - 12:05 PM.

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#11 dan2

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 12:51 PM

Ouch, Asty, that's red all over... I'm kidding, it's great you had the time, thanks. :)
How about blue -comments- you're not against anything?

#12 Astyanax

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 02:01 PM

Oops, sorry Dan2. I guess I'm a little crankier than usual because my head feels like it's filled with cotton- didn't mean to take it out on your text. Incidentally, I should clarify that red highlighted texts are usually also comments (I sometimes get confused while proofreading, to be honest :OhBrother:). In the RDX paragraph, I probably should have said that further explanation was needed, but I was, er, in the proofreading "zone" and got carried away. :unsure:
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#13 dan2

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 06:14 PM

Thank you, Astynax, for your careful additions and corrections.
After my text was bleeding to death, here's my attempt to rescue it (actually I just followed most of Astynax suggestions).
I didn't agree, though, with "at ground level?," and I think "closes the detonator's circuit, allowing a small electrical charge to trigger the RDX payload in the next compartment" sounds a bit odd, but I blame my non-english inheritance.


X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is powerful explosive device thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once it lands, it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement.

The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well-armored targets.

Because the [Proximity Grenade]'s simple construction does not require a sophisticated timer, more explosives can be packed in its lightweight titanium shell. This grenade has only one switch, and the manufacturer strongly recommends the grenade be thrown shortly after activation to minimize the user's risk of severe injury.

The explosive inside the [Proximity Grenade] is the well-known chemical compound RDX, a very stable yet very powerful explosive, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system. When very low frequency vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are in the vicinity, a tiny metal coil within the proximity detector begins to resonate in time with these vibrations. As a target approaches, its vibrations cause this metal coil to resonate with increased intensity. When the metal coil's resonance causes it touch a metal cylinder, it closes the detonator's circuit, allowing a small electrical charge to trigger the RDX payload in the next compartment. The resulting explosion damages any nearby targets from below, and our soldiers should take care not to get caught in the large blast radius.

While our soldiers are fully trained in the use of the [PROXIMITY GRENADE], it is recommended that only experienced soldiers use them since accurate records of any thrown explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental injury or death at a later time. Activated [Proximity grenade]s are salvaged following combat using long cushioned pliers and are carefully deactivated.

Edited by dan2, 28 February 2005 - 06:17 PM.


#14 Cpt. Boxershorts

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 11:23 PM

Activated [Proximity grenade]s are salvaged following combat using long cushioned pliers and are carefully deactivated.


This line seems a bit odd to me. Right now, military and police forces are starting to use remotely operated vehicles to disarm explosives. It just seems a little primitive to have the planet's elite combat force in the near future doing it with long-handled pliers.

Maybe just something like:

"Activated [Proximity grenade]s are disarmed and recovered following combat."

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#15 Penta

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 11:41 PM

Activated [Proximity grenade]s are salvaged following combat using long cushioned pliers and are carefully deactivated.


This line seems a bit odd to me. Right now, military and police forces are starting to use remotely operated vehicles to disarm explosives. It just seems a little primitive to have the planet's elite combat force in the near future doing it with long-handled pliers.

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Starting? They've been doing it like that for 10 years.

#16 dan2

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Posted 28 February 2005 - 11:44 PM

Activated [Proximity grenade]s are salvaged following combat using long cushioned pliers and are carefully deactivated.


This line seems a bit odd to me. Right now, military and police forces are starting to use remotely operated vehicles to disarm explosives. It just seems a little primitive to have the planet's elite combat force in the near future doing it with long-handled pliers.

Maybe just something like:

"Activated [Proximity grenade]s are disarmed and recovered following combat."

-The Captain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It can be done, but they're disarmed how? And not a method usable in combat <_< ,even if I wish I had a remote control for them in TFTD

#17 Moriarty

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 06:33 AM

wow, that raises an interesting question. I never thought about how they disarm the proximity grenades in XCom. Perhaps we should consider the possibility that they cannot be disarmed... that would mean that maybe they can only be remotely detonated. this would imply that once you throw a grenade, you lose it, even if it does not detonate until the ground battle is over.

any explanation involveing remote off-switching would cause players to wonder "why don't I have the remote with me on the mission?".
come to think of it, I just thought of a way out: there is a remote disarming function, but for safety reasons (that is, to prevent aliens from finding out how to do it and use it every time you throw one) there is a time delay of, say, 10 minutes. that means your mop-up crew has to wait ten more minutes before they can begin, but you do get to keep the proximity grenades.
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Posted 01 March 2005 - 08:49 AM

How about the Prox grenades having a failsafe system which prevents them from being disarmed before all enemies are defeated?, the prox grenades remaining could be remotely disarmed by the commander of the mission (which would be the player). That system of having the commander and not the soldiers being able to disarm them could have been made in response to the Alien psionic attacks, or, more adequate for the first stages of the game, because if an Alien kills a soldier and takes the remote control for the prox mines, then it could deactivate them all, that'd not be good.

#19 Moriarty

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 09:30 AM

what, you mean the commander of XCorps has to come out everytime proximity grenades have been used? man, I'd be pretty pissed about that :)
Or do you mean that they are remotely disabled from the base? that's probably a bit too far, and the transceiver would have to be veeeeery powerful, plus very sophisticated, unless you would want the aliens to intercept and decode the signal.

at least we agree that there has to be a remote-control deactivation system. :D
I am just trying to explain why noone should even think about using it in a battle, and the time-delay sounds like a good explanation to me.
I doubt, therefore I might be.

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#20 mikker

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 09:33 AM

why not just make it, so that the prox nades that you have already activated CAN'T be deactivated? Simple: The soldier throw a rock at everyone of the prox nades before returning to base.

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#21 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 10:22 AM

why not just make it, so that the prox nades that you have already activated CAN'T be deactivated? Simple: The soldier throw a rock at everyone of the prox nades before returning to base.

That sounds... awfully primitive, it's 2012, I think there should be a way.

what, you mean the commander of XCorps has to come out everytime proximity grenades have been used? man, I'd be pretty pissed about that  :)
Or do you mean that they are remotely disabled from the base? that's probably a bit too far, and the transceiver would have to be veeeeery powerful, plus very sophisticated, unless you would want the aliens to intercept and decode the signal.

at least we agree that there has to be a remote-control deactivation system.  :D
I am just trying to explain why noone should even think about using it in a battle, and the time-delay sounds like a good explanation to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not the Commander himself, I expressed myself wrong, the commander of the mission, whoever he is, the Leader, he would be actually the player, maybe running off things from the base, as the player does in the battlescape. How about the commander/leader/whatever sends a deactivation signal to the Condor/Transport and the transport relays it to the prox mines?
Or, maybe, simply the mines are deactivated by the pilot on the transport, who broadcasts the signal once all troopers report that the aliens are dead (when the mission is over, that is)

#22 Astyanax

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:13 PM

I'm not too keen on the radio deactivation idea. If the Aliens capture one (i.e. you lost a mission), I'm sure the Aliens could easily discover the frequency and deactivate all future prox grenades. Because this doesn't happen in the game, I think other ideas might be better.

About the mission leader disarming the grenades... I'm sorry to be so negative in this post, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. First, it sounds like something a leader would pass on to a lowly recruit, "Picking up unexploded ordnance? Here Private, you do it." Secondly, if there's danger involved, why risk the loss of the most experienced person? The leader should take the fewest risks because his/her tactical understanding is particularly important during missions.

Dan2, how about this?

As a target approaches, its vibrations cause this metal coil to resonate with increased strength/vigor.  When the vibrations reach a threshold intensity, the resonating metal coil strikes a nearby metal cylinder, allowing a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the explosive RDX payload in the next compartment.


Edited by Astyanax, 01 March 2005 - 01:22 PM.

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:21 PM

I'm not too keen on the radio deactivation idea.  If the Aliens capture one (i.e. you lost a mission),  I'm sure the Aliens could easily discover the frequency and deactivate all future prox grenades.  Because this doesn't happen in the game, I think other ideas might be better.

About the mission leader disarming the grenades... I'm sorry to be so negative in this post, but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  First, it sounds like something a leader would pass on to a lowly recruit, "Picking up unexploded ordnance?  Here Private, you do it."  Secondly, if there's danger involved, why risk the loss of the most experienced person?  The leader should take the fewest risks because his/her tactical understanding is particularly important during missions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First, the radio frequency doesn't have to be always the exact same, it can be changed per mission.
Second, then have a low recruit do the job, but it's the leader that gives the order to deactivate the prox mines. And there is no risk of loss because deactivating doesn't mean that the leader will go personally to pick them up. He just presses a button/gives the signal.

#24 Astyanax

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:25 PM

Hm, it could work... maybe have a short radio sequence consisting of several frequencies in a set pattern, changeable after each mission?

I like the idea! :)

Edit- Wow, I've never posted 200 times on a board before! :P

Edited by Astyanax, 01 March 2005 - 01:26 PM.

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#25 dan2

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 01:40 PM

Dan2, how about this?

As a target approaches, its vibrations cause this metal coil to resonate with increased strength/vigor.  When the vibrations reach a threshold intensity, the resonating metal coil strikes a nearby metal cylinder, allowing a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the explosive RDX payload in the next compartment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The way I see it is a metal coil vibrating inside a metal cylinder, so "nearby" is not really apropriate. When it's vibrating inside, it doesn't matter the direction of the incoming vibration. So can you find a substitute for "nearby". And yes, congratulations for 200 posts, "Way to go :) " (Although the number of posts is irrelevant to me, it's their quality that counts, so trust me, yours worth double on the black market"
I guess I'll watch the various ideas and I'll incorporate the ones that seems make most sense. Btw, the programming department have any requirements for this, I mean are any activated thrown grenades lost or regained after the battle?

#26 Astyanax

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 02:05 PM

Hah, I'm just a chatterbox, you know... :Speach: But I'm just surprised that I've managed to stay this long. ;)

How's this?

When very low frequency vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are in the vicinity, a tiny metal coil encased within a small metallic cylinder (the proximity detector) begins to resonate in time with these vibrations.  As a target approaches, its vibrations cause this metal coil to resonate with increased strength/vigor.  When the vibrations reach a threshold intensity, the resonating metal coil strikes the interior of its cylindrical metal casing, allowing a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the explosive RDX payload in the next compartment.


Edited by Astyanax, 01 March 2005 - 02:06 PM.

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#27 dan2

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 02:12 PM

Hah, I'm just a chatterbox, you know... :Speach:  But I'm just surprised that I've managed to stay this long. ;)

How's this?

When very low frequency vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are in the vicinity, a tiny metal coil encased within a small metallic cylinder (the proximity detector) begins to resonate in time with these vibrations.  As a target approaches, its vibrations cause this metal coil to resonate with increased strength/vigor.  When the vibrations reach a threshold intensity, the resonating metal coil strikes the interior of its cylindrical metal casing, allowing a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the explosive RDX payload in the next compartment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds great to me, I wouldn't ever said it better myself. Encased, that's the word. I would choose strength rather than vigor. What do you think, to "remote" or not to "remote"?

#28 dan2

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 06:57 PM

X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is powerful explosive device thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once it lands, it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement.

The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well-armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains one switch, coupled with a simple, small size timer, and also a large amount of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell. Once activated, the timer keeps the grenade activated long enough until the end of the battle. The manufacturer strongly recommends the grenade be thrown shortly after activation to minimize the user's risk of severe injury.

The explosive inside the [Proximity Grenade] is the well-known chemical compound RDX, a very stable yet very powerful explosive, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.
When very low frequency vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are in the vicinity, a tiny metal coil encased within a small metallic cylinder (the proximity detector) begins to resonate in time with these vibrations. As a target approaches, its vibrations cause this metal coil to resonate with increased strength/vigor. When the vibrations reach a threshold intensity, the resonating metal coil strikes the interior of its cylindrical metal casing, allowing a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the explosive RDX payload in the next compartment. The resulting explosion damages any nearby targets from below, and our soldiers should take care not to get caught in the large blast radius.

While our soldiers are fully trained in the use of the [PROXIMITY GRENADE], it is recommended that only experienced soldiers use them since accurate records of any thrown explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental injury or death at a later time. After the battle, the deactivated [Proximity grenade]s are collected and stored for the further use.

Edited by dan2, 01 March 2005 - 08:45 PM.


#29 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 08:40 PM

The manufacturer strongly recommends the grenade be thrown shortly after activation to minimize the user's risk of severe injury.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is kinda obvious, right?

Anyway, you didn't add the part about the deactivation.

#30 dan2

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Posted 01 March 2005 - 08:52 PM

The manufacturer strongly recommends the grenade be thrown shortly after activation to minimize the user's risk of severe injury.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is kinda obvious, right?

Anyway, you didn't add the part about the deactivation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obvious, indeed, but how many rookies do you think would forget that and move his soldiers with those grenades activated? It's just a warning, it's not senseless, I think. But I can take it out any time, of course.
I already changed the part with the switch and I added a timer that deactivates the grenade after the battle. Usually the battle time do not add to geoscape time, either EU or TFTD, even in Apoc, so I presume battles should last a few minutes. If the timer deactivates soon after, they can be collected after battle, but not before the end of it. It sounds fine in my head, but I expect many objections to this.

Edited by dan2, 01 March 2005 - 08:52 PM.


#31 Moriarty

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Posted 02 March 2005 - 03:53 AM

is it only me, or does the metal-coil-vibrating-and-striking-the-cylinder sound awfully low-tech? I'm thinking more along the lines of "integrated-circuit vibration sensors in an array allowing detection and triangulation of the source of the vibration". The reason is this: a grenade only sensing intensity of vibration would be triggered by
1) a Grey stepping on it
2) an Artopod walking by at 5 meters distance
3) a Fusion Bomb detonating at 40 meters distance
I doubt, therefore I might be.

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#32 dan2

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Posted 02 March 2005 - 10:31 AM

is it only me, or does the metal-coil-vibrating-and-striking-the-cylinder sound awfully low-tech? I'm thinking more along the lines of "integrated-circuit vibration sensors in an array allowing detection and triangulation of the source of the vibration". The reason is this: a grenade only sensing intensity of vibration would be triggered by
1) a Grey stepping on it
2) an Artopod walking by at 5 meters distance
3) a Fusion Bomb detonating at 40 meters distance

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

About vibrations, I wanted to keep it simple. I said it feels low frequency vibrations, so an explosion wouldn't detonate it. I guess I can put three coil devices and an on-board computer to triangulate the position of the signal.
About it's too low-tech, I think it should be, otherwise nobody will say "Ooohhh, alien technology".
I can put in a shot fresh californium, directly taken from the nuclear reactor and a lot of lithium deuteride and with just grames of explosive, the fission/fusion reaction would be enough to erase the entire map (together with aliens and their tiny UFO) from history. But there will be no point in fighting some lame aliens, then.
Indeed, I think some triangulation device must be included, but not very high-tech. What do you say?

#33 dan2

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Posted 02 March 2005 - 02:09 PM

X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is powerful explosive device thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once it lands, it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well-armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains only one switch, coupled with a miniaturized timer, electronics and detectors, and also a large amount of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell. Once activated, the timer keeps the grenade activated long enough until the end of the battle. The manufacturer strongly recommends the grenade be thrown shortly after activation to minimize the user's risk of severe injury.

The explosive inside the [Proximity Grenade] is the well-known chemical compound RDX, a very stable yet very powerful explosive, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.
When the vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are detected by 3 piezoelectric crystalls positioned in an equilateral triangle shape inside the grenade, a simple electronic device is able to extrapolate the origin of the vibration based on the time required for each crystall to receive the vibration. As a target approaches below a threshold distance, the electronic device allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the explosive RDX payload in the next compartment. The resulting explosion damages any nearby targets from below, and our soldiers should take care not to get caught in the large blast radius.

While our soldiers are fully trained in the use of the [PROXIMITY GRENADE], it is recommended that only experienced soldiers use them since accurate records of any thrown explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental injury or death at a later time. After the battle, the deactivated [Proximity grenade]s are collected and stored for the further use.

#34 Moriarty

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 12:47 AM

that sounds perfect to me. I was thinking about piezoelectrics for this, too, but you were faster :) great text!

oh, one thing I noticed: this grenade uses "RDX" as the explosive. the standard grenade is supposed to use "Blend & White Plastic Explosive" (I don't know what that is supposed to be... I know I wrote the current version, but I just copied that from an earlier post), and I haven't yet checked, but I suppose the third available explosive device uses something else altogether. should we keep it that way? or should we use one kind of explosive for all? :huh?: :shrug: :hmmm:
I doubt, therefore I might be.

Posted Image,the sneaky little bastard.

#35 dan2

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 01:11 PM

oh, one thing I noticed: this grenade uses "RDX" as the explosive. the standard grenade  is supposed to use "Blend & White Plastic Explosive" (I don't know what that is supposed to be... I know I wrote the current version, but I just copied that from an earlier post), and I haven't yet checked, but I suppose the third available explosive device uses something else altogether. should we keep it that way? or should we use one kind of explosive for all?  :huh?:  :shrug:  :hmmm:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I chose RDX because is powerful, stable and it exists.
I mean why the humans don't just nuke the aliens? Because they want to collect and research alien technology. Why aliens use such powerful weapons? Because they don't care about inferior human technology and they want to inflict heavy casualties.
So if you ask me about explosive choises, since Proximity Grenade is a pre-Alien (made before aliens even appear to oppose the humans) and is designed to damage slightly, but not totally, the aliens, I thought RDX (or even good old TNT) would do. This is my view of things, the first weapons must be simple in order to be able to collect alien technology, instead of collecting ashes. That's what I like in Xcom3, use too powerful weapons and you destroy valuable technology.
About many types of explosive, that's fine, in the world there are so many different ones, why should we make them all the same? I agree, it will be nicer and more organized, but remember, we're so many in CTD, everybody with their knowledge and taste, do you think at the end the texts will look coherent in their ideas? But that's more realistic, I think

#36 Penta

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 02:50 PM

RDX is usually mixed with something. See, encountered alone, RDX is crystalline, like sugar.

To use it, you need to mix it with, for example, plasticizers.

#37 dan2

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 03:07 PM

RDX is usually mixed with something. See, encountered alone, RDX is crystalline, like sugar.
To use it, you need to mix it with, for example, plasticizers.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok, that can be done. Any idea of which plasticizer seems more suitable for the text?
I didn't say RDX is alone there, maybe in order to be very accurate I should write "RDX-based explosive". Is it a good choice?

#38 Penta

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 05:29 PM

Ok, that can be done. Any idea of which plasticizer seems more suitable for the text?
I didn't say RDX is alone there, maybe in order to be very accurate I should write "RDX-based explosive". Is it a good choice?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


RDX-based explosive would work.

#39 dan2

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 06:12 PM

X-Net://Pegasus.net/Weapons/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is powerful explosive device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once it lands, it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well-armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains only one switch, coupled with a miniaturized timer, electronics and detectors, and also a large amount of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell. Once activated, the timer keeps the grenade activated long enough until the end of the battle. The manufacturer strongly recommends the grenade be thrown shortly after activation to minimize the user's risk of severe injury.
The very stable yet very powerful explosive inside the [Proximity Grenade] is based on the well-known chemical compound RDX, which is mixed with shock inhibitors and radical stabilizers into a moldable material, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.
When the vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are detected by 3 piezoelectric crystalls positioned in an equilateral triangle shape inside the grenade, a simple electronic device is able to extrapolate the origin of the vibration based on the time required for each crystall to receive the vibration. As a target approaches below a threshold distance, the electronic device allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the RDX-based explosive in the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius, and our soldiers should take care not to get caught inside it.
Caution is recommended when using [Proximity grenades], since accurate records of any thrown explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental injury or death of any friendly unit. After the battle, the self-deactivated [Proximity grenade]s are collected and stored for the further use.

Edited by dan2, 03 March 2005 - 06:35 PM.


#40 Penta

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 11:07 PM

Looks good.

<grabs Dan2, hooks him up to the static line>

GO GO GO!

<pushes him out of the airplane with his draft>

#41 AlienInBlack

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Posted 03 March 2005 - 11:57 PM

  Looks good.


Seconded. This looks like a very solid entry into X-Net.

#42 dan2

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 06:16 AM

Wait until the proofreaders will have time for it, the text will become red all over... ouch :Leek:

P.S. If you have time to look over Intimidator or Motion Detector, any suggestions will be highly appreciated

Edited by dan2, 04 March 2005 - 06:25 AM.


#43 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:38 AM

I'll just do a quick run through the paragraphs, I'll leave word-per-word revision to actual proofreading. My comments on green, highlights on blue, additions for spelling, grammar or whateva in red.

[PROXIMITY GRENADE]
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is a powerful explosive device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once it lands, it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well-armored targets.

Don't all landmines trigger by nearby movement?, I'm not sure so this is actually a question :)
Also "Nevertheless" implies that having the weaponry manufactured for xcorps means that it will be of inferior quality, that is not necesarily true, not at the beginning of the game.


The [Proximity Grenade] contains only one switch, coupled with a miniaturized timer, electronics and detectors, and also a large amount of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell. Once activated, the timer keeps the grenade activated long enough until the end of the battle. The manufacturer strongly recommends the grenade be thrown shortly after activation to minimize the user's risk of severe injury.

I still can't help to feel that it is an unnecesary recommendation, it's like having a warning on a grenade "Recommended to throw after pulling the pin". It doesn't look all that good there.

The very stable yet very powerful explosive inside the [Proximity Grenade] is based on the well-known chemical compound RDX, which is mixed with shock inhibitors and radical stabilizers into a moldable material, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

RDX is an acronym I suppose, please put the complete words before using it, and then in parenthesis the acronym, the first time at least. Leave this paragraph and the next separated, to make reading easier.

When the vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are detected by 3 piezoelectric crystalls positioned in an equilateral triangle shape inside the grenade, a simple electronic device is able to extrapolate the origin of the vibration based on the time required for each crystall to receive the vibration. As a target approaches below a threshold distance, the electronic device allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the RDX-based explosive in the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius, and our soldiers should take care not to get caught inside it.

Caution is recommended when using [Proximity grenades], since accurate records of any thrown explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental injury or death of any friendly unit. After the battle, the self-deactivated [Proximity grenade]s are collected and stored for the further use.

I like the triangulation system, however I don't understand why the proximity grenade needs one, only thing it needs is to know it's there, it's not really important where exactly, as long as it's *there*. Separated the two last paragraphs.
I think it would also be interesting to compare it's power to that of a Sidewinder missile, which are exactly the same.

Edited by Azrael, 04 March 2005 - 08:39 AM.


#44 dan2

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:32 PM

[PROXIMITY GRENADE]
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is a powerful explosive device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once it lands, it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well-armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains only one switch, coupled with a miniaturized timer, electronics and detectors, and also a large amount of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell. Once activated, the timer keeps the grenade activated long enough until the end of the battle.

The very stable yet very powerful explosive inside the [Proximity Grenade] is based on the well-known chemical compound cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine (RDX), which is mixed with shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers into a moldable material, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

When the vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are detected by 3 piezoelectric crystalls positioned in an equilateral triangle shape inside the grenade, a simple electronic device is able to extrapolate the origin of the vibration based on the time required for each crystall to receive the vibration. As a target approaches below a threshold distance, the electronic device allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the RDX-based explosive in the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius, and our soldiers should take care not to get caught inside it.

Caution is recommended when using [Proximity grenades], since accurate records of any thrown explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental injury or death of any friendly unit. Also, walking or running with an activated [Proximity grenade] inside one's inventory is strictly prohibited by the manufacturer. After the battle, the self-deactivated [Proximity grenade]s are collected and stored for the further use.

#45 dan2

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Posted 04 March 2005 - 08:48 PM

1. Don't all landmines trigger by nearby movement?, I'm not sure so this is actually a question :)

2. I like the triangulation system, however I don't understand why the proximity grenade needs one, only thing it needs is to know it's there, it's not really important where exactly, as long as it's *there*.

3. I think it would also be interesting to compare it's power to that of a Sidewinder missile, which are exactly the same

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


1. No, there are mines that require the victim to step on it and some explode only when the pressure is released. This grenade can explode when you're close enough (1 square away in TFTD)
2. Some people like it and it describes how the grenade/mine work. It's useful for the story and it's not long. It make sense...
3. But Sidewinder missile is a ship weapon and is used in geoscape, while the mine is used in battlescape. You cannot compare the damage for the two, because even if the values are numerically the same, they represent different damage to different things. Maybe they're equal in the proportion toward a maximum damage, but they're not equal. Are you sure?

#46 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 02:56 AM

1. No, there are mines that require the victim to step on it and some explode only when the pressure is released. This grenade can explode when you're close enough (1 square away in TFTD)

Ok, figured :)

2. Some people like it and it describes how the grenade/mine work. It's useful for the story and it's not long. It make sense...

It doesn't matter that much if it makes it all pretty, the text has to make as much sense as possible, try to follow my reasoning: if the grenade all it does is exploding when it senses movement nearby, then why does it need a system to triangulate position?, I like it as well, but for this text is just redundant, it's unecessary, unnecesary electronics in a device increases its cost, so a simply prox grenade which explodes when it senses nearby movement would cost much less than a prox grenade which explodes when it senses nearby movement AND triangulates your position...but explodes anyway if it detects you nearby, regardless of your position. If the explosion could be "directional", like only exploding or firing something at the target's position, then the system would be necesary, but not for this.

3. But Sidewinder missile is a ship weapon and is used in geoscape, while the mine is used in battlescape. You cannot compare the damage for the two, because even if the values are numerically the same, they represent different damage to different things. Maybe they're equal in the proportion toward a maximum damage, but they're not equal. Are you sure?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The power listed in the Ufopaedia and the power that will be listed in the X-Net are the same, 70, so I think it would be interesting to have the power of both compared. It's precisely the fact that one is a ship weapon and the other is a small grenade that the comparison is interesting. :D

#47 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 03:07 AM

It's not that important, but I found this other meanings of RDX..

RDX Cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine (CAS Number 121-82-4)   
RDX Hexahydro-Trinitro-Triazine (explosive/propellant)   
RDX Rapid Detonating Explosive   

The first one is the one you used, wouldn't it be better to use the second or the third?, it's your choice :)

#48 dan2

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 08:54 AM

It's not that important, but I found this other meanings of RDX..

RDX Cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine (CAS Number 121-82-4)   
RDX Hexahydro-Trinitro-Triazine (explosive/propellant)   
RDX Rapid Detonating Explosive   

The first one is the one you used, wouldn't it be better to use the second or the third?, it's your choice :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The first chemical name is accurate, the second is missing position numbers, so I won't use it. The military name, the third, yes, it can be added, right after the chemical name.

#49 dan2

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 09:16 AM

It doesn't matter that much if it makes it all pretty, the text has to make as much sense as possible, try to follow my reasoning: if the grenade all it does is exploding when it senses movement nearby, then why does it need a system to triangulate position?, I like it as well, but for this text is just redundant, it's unecessary, unnecesary electronics in a device increases its cost, so a simply prox grenade which explodes when it senses nearby movement would cost much less than a prox grenade which explodes when it senses nearby movement AND triangulates your position...but explodes anyway if it detects you nearby, regardless of your position. If the explosion could be "directional", like only exploding or firing something at the target's position, then the system would be necesary, but not for this.

The power listed in the Ufopaedia and the power that will be listed in the X-Net are the same, 70, so I think it would be interesting to have the power of both compared. It's precisely the fact that one is a ship weapon and the other is a small grenade that the comparison is interesting. :D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


But this passage explains why the grenade doesn't blow up when a really far, but powerful fusionball explosion produces vibrations highly exceeding any vibrations from walking enemies. The grenade explodes when the victim is really close, not when it is able to vibrate strongly. The artopod will produce far more vibrations than a grey, but as long as they not close enough, the grenade won't explode. This was pointed out already earlier in the thread. And electronics today are really cheap and highly miniaturized, so this won't be a problem either.

The programmers can store in a byte (8 signs of binary zeros and ones) a number between 0 and 255. Then in order to compair various weapon strength they assign such number. But compairing these values between ship weapons and soldier weapons is irrelevant. Let's say in X-com3, one Megapol Auto Cannon have the strength for its HE ammo of 33. A Janitor missile has a strength of 22. Do you think the explosion of a Janitor missile is less powerful than an HE auto cannon explosion? They have assigned numbers to compare a Janitor (22) with a Profet (26) or with a Medium Disruptor (40), but you can't say a Megapol Launcher (HE=90) used by a soldier is more than twice as powerful than a ship weapon. Did I completely misunderstand you?

Edited by dan2, 05 March 2005 - 09:17 AM.


#50 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 02:56 PM

But this passage explains why the grenade doesn't blow up when a really far, but powerful fusionball explosion produces vibrations highly exceeding any vibrations from walking enemies. The grenade explodes when the victim is really close, not when it is able to vibrate strongly. The artopod will produce far more vibrations than a grey, but as long as they not close enough, the grenade won't explode. This was pointed out already earlier in the thread. And electronics today are really cheap and highly miniaturized, so this won't be a problem either.

So?, but what's the point of having it triangulate the position?, all the thing needs is to somehow detect that it's within x meters, in which direction is unimportant.

The programmers can store in a byte (8 signs of binary zeros and ones) a number between 0 and 255. Then in order to compair various weapon strength they assign such number. But compairing these values between ship weapons and soldier weapons is irrelevant. Let's say in X-com3, one Megapol Auto Cannon have the strength for its HE ammo of 33. A Janitor missile has a strength of 22. Do you think the explosion of a Janitor missile is less powerful than an HE auto cannon explosion? They have assigned numbers to compare a Janitor (22) with a Profet (26) or with a Medium Disruptor (40), but you can't say a Megapol Launcher (HE=90) used by a soldier is more than twice as powerful than a ship weapon. Did I completely misunderstand you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm still unsure, but it was only a suggestion, so you do what you think is best :)