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CTD - Proximity Grenade


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#51 dipstick

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 03:42 PM

I would recommend that you do NOT compare the weapons' strength - dan, you are right. :)
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#52 dan2

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Posted 05 March 2005 - 09:52 PM

So?, but what's the point of having it triangulate the position?, all the thing needs is to somehow detect that it's within x meters, in which direction is unimportant.

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Triangulation is the only method for accurately measure distances, intensity of sound seems not enough and I don't know any simpler methods.

#53 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 06 March 2005 - 01:55 AM

NKF has come to our aid once again :)

The proximity mine basically gets set off when anyone walks into its 3x3 detection grid, with the mine being in the centre. Anyone walking out of this grid is safe, but anyone walking into it sets it off. It doesn't detect movement for anything that drops down onto it or its detection radius.

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shouldn't your detection system detect someone falling on top of it?

#54 Moriarty

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 02:51 AM

so our prox grenade in xenocide will have the same shortcoming the ones in XCom had? well, if that's the case, I guess we should delete the part about triangulation. (btw, dan: thank you for defending my point! :) )
still, the grenade needs some way of detecting nearby motion that actually makes sense. the "triangulation of vibration source" sounds cool to me, but you are right, if the grenade cannot detect flying or dropping objects, we need to explain that. although I wouldn't know how. :P
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#55 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 05:11 AM

so our prox grenade in xenocide will have the same shortcoming the ones in XCom had? well, if that's the case, I guess we should delete the part about triangulation. (btw, dan: thank you for defending my point! :) )
still, the grenade needs some way of detecting nearby motion that actually makes sense. the "triangulation of vibration source" sounds cool to me, but you are right, if the grenade cannot detect flying or dropping objects, we need to explain that. although I wouldn't know how.  :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


AFAIK, battlescape elements will have the exact same behaviour as those from X-Com 1. Maybe once we have a playable battlescape, we can make some changes, but not before, unfortunately.
About detection then, how about a simple short-range motion tracker?

#56 Moriarty

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 09:48 AM

About detection then, how about a simple short-range motion tracker?

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hmmm. can you tell me why a simple motion tracker would not be triggered by things moving above it or dropping on it?

Thinking about it, the piezo-crystal triangulation thing is actually the best mechanism to explain that, because they detect vibration in the ground. that still does not explain how a terror disk can trigger a proximity grenade, though. And if at a later stage we change the prox 'nades to detect flying things, we can just say that the piezo-crystals can also detect air oscillations (=sound waves). it's just a matter of defining the input filter.

EDIT: typos

Edited by Moriarty, 07 March 2005 - 09:49 AM.

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#57 dan2

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 10:51 AM

About detection then, how about a simple short-range motion tracker?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


hmmm. can you tell me why a simple motion tracker would not be triggered by things moving above it or dropping on it?

Thinking about it, the piezo-crystal triangulation thing is actually the best mechanism to explain that, because they detect vibration in the ground. that still does not explain how a terror disk can trigger a proximity grenade, though. And if at a later stage we change the prox 'nades to detect flying things, we can just say that the piezo-crystals can also detect air oscillations (=sound waves). it's just a matter of defining the input filter.

EDIT: typos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, he's right. I was in the process of thinking, that's why I didn't say anything. The only thing I was able to come up till now was to make the detector go BANG only when it detects movement below several meters per second, characteristic to unit movements and not bullets, thrown objects or deflagrations, which are way faster. Flying units are above the distance radius, because each cursor cube is a distorted cube, 1 meter wide, 1 meter long, but 2 meters tall (I'm talking about units hovering in a different height plane). And the detection system detects movement in a planar fashion, rather than 3D, since all piezoelectric crystalls are in the horizontal plane.

#58 dan2

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:38 AM

[PROXIMITY GRENADE]
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is a powerful explosive device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, but once it lands, it behaves like a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well-armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains only one switch, coupled with a miniaturized timer, electronics and detectors, and also a large amount of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell.

The very stable yet very powerful explosive inside the [Proximity Grenade] is based on the well-known chemical compound cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, also known as "Rapid Detonating Explosive" (RDX), which is mixed with shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers into a moldable material, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

Once the [Proximity grenade] is activated, a pressure detector on the bottom of the grenade allows a battery to send power to the proximity detection circuits as soon as the grenade lands on the ground and the timer keeps the grenade activated long enough until the end of the battle. When the vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are detected by 3 piezoelectric crystalls positioned in an equilateral triangle shape inside the grenade, a simple electronic device is able to extrapolate the distance and the speed of the origin of the vibration based on the time required for each crystall to receive the vibration. Anything faster than a few meters per second is ignored as being a thrown object, explosion or fired ammo, but anything slower is considered as a hostile unit. As a target approaches below a threshold distance, the detection circuit allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit and trigger the RDX-based explosive in the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius, and our soldiers should take care not to get caught inside it.

Caution is recommended when using [Proximity grenades], since accurate records of any thrown explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental injury or death of any friendly unit. Also, walking or running with an activated [Proximity grenade] inside one's inventory is strictly prohibited by the manufacturer. After the battle, the self-deactivated [Proximity grenade]s are collected and stored for the further use.

Edited by dan2, 07 March 2005 - 04:45 PM.


#59 tzuchan

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:46 AM

And the detection system detects movement in a planar fashion, rather than 3D, since all piezoelectric crystalls are in the horizontal plane.

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:huh: You do realize that this device is designed to be thrown right? If so, there's no 100% way to be sure that it lands in the proper orientation for the piezoelectric crystals to always work on ground targets?

*edit* Perhaps if the grenade can only be set off by ryhmatic<sp?> vibrations. That way, the vibrations caused by explosions, dropping bodies, and gunshots won't set off the grenade, but the vibrations caused by someone walking/hovering will have a certain rhythm that can be recognized by a microchip.

Also, a deadman style trigger would be ideal, so that the grenade won't be active until thrown/dropped. And with regards to the timer, I think it'd be more logical to built in a receiver that deactivates the grenade when it receives a signal... Safer and easier than waiting for a grenade to deactivate... As well as the fact that then you won't have to worry about the grenades deactivating themselves in the middle of a battle.

Edited by tzuchan, 07 March 2005 - 11:56 AM.

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#60 dan2

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:48 AM

(btw, dan: thank you for defending my point! :) )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If your idea is right in my opinion, of course I'll defend it with arguments.
If your suggestions seem reasonable I'll always try to change the story to fit the reasonable.
If I'm not sure of something I'll look into it, and the internet is perfect for this.
We're here to agree on things, otherwise this project will be not finished or it will be finished with very bad and unfit explanations, to the shame of CTD. And I hope from all my heart it will not be the case.
Actually I hope CTD texts will be the best part of this game :fingerscrossed:

#61 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 01:03 PM

About detection then, how about a simple short-range motion tracker?

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hmmm. can you tell me why a simple motion tracker would not be triggered by things moving above it or dropping on it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I can't :P

edit

I think it'd be more logical to built in a receiver that deactivates the grenade when it receives a signal... Safer and easier than waiting for a grenade to deactivate... As well as the fact that then you won't have to worry about the grenades deactivating themselves in the middle of a battle.

That's what I was saying, tzuchan and I agreeing on more than one thing... on the same year... weird :rolleyes:

Edited by Azrael, 07 March 2005 - 01:12 PM.


#62 dan2

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 02:17 PM

[:huh: You do realize that this device is designed to be thrown right? If so, there's no 100% way to be sure that it lands in the proper orientation for the piezoelectric crystals to always work on ground targets?
Also, a deadman style trigger would be ideal, so that the grenade won't be active until thrown/dropped. And with regards to the timer, I think it'd be more logical to built in a receiver that deactivates the grenade when it receives a signal... Safer and easier than waiting for a grenade to deactivate... As well as the fact that then you won't have to worry about the grenades deactivating themselves in the middle of a battle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess a way to explain it, it would be the fact that the mass inside the grenade is not distributed equally, the bottom being heavier, so it will land to an almost horizontal position. Even at a 30 inclination (which is pretty steep slope) it will still work fine.
Of course, the triangulation system begins to work only when thrown or left to fall on the ground, maybe I should say it specifically in my text.
I'll answer your second question (about the deactivation timer) if you tell me how much real time (in geoscape) a battle takes.

#63 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 02:26 PM

[:huh: You do realize that this device is designed to be thrown right? If so, there's no 100% way to be sure that it lands in the proper orientation for the piezoelectric crystals to always work on ground targets?
Also, a deadman style trigger would be ideal, so that the grenade won't be active until thrown/dropped. And with regards to the timer, I think it'd be more logical to built in a receiver that deactivates the grenade when it receives a signal... Safer and easier than waiting for a grenade to deactivate... As well as the fact that then you won't have to worry about the grenades deactivating themselves in the middle of a battle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess a way to explain it, it would be the fact that the mass inside the grenade is not distributed equally, the bottom being heavier, so it will land to an almost horizontal position. Even at a 30 inclination (which is pretty steep slope) it will still work fine.
Of course, the triangulation system begins to work only when thrown or left to fall on the ground, maybe I should say it specifically in my text.
I'll answer your second question (about the deactivation timer) if you tell me how much real time (in geoscape) a battle takes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you prefer Dan, keep your triangulation system in the text, I like it too, but I just wanted to let you know that it could be modified in the future, once we have the battlescape :)

#64 dan2

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 03:49 PM

If you prefer Dan, keep your triangulation system in the text, I like it too, but I just wanted to let you know that it could be modified in the future, once we have the battlescape :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So my text is expendable?......Yeah, I pretty much knew that.... I'm new here, so it's understandable....I'll read more and write less.... :unsure:

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 03:55 PM

If you prefer Dan, keep your triangulation system in the text, I like it too, but I just wanted to let you know that it could be modified in the future, once we have the battlescape :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So my text is expendable?......Yeah, I pretty much knew that.... I'm new here, so it's understandable....I'll read more and write less.... :unsure:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't say that, not expendable, just wanted you to know that these texts (those associated with battlescape items) could suffer changes as the battlescape is developed. It will be a time before that happens, so don't worry, and if you are still here when the battlescape is tested, you'll have the chance to make the necessary changes yourself.
Edit: And no, it has nothing to do with you being new, this goes for all battlescape-related texts. Even Basescape-related texts could suffer changes, we don't have an art model for Psionic Lab, so the description written could be changed later, tzuchan's NEUDARS have to have their description modified (have to look into that, damn), so don't feel like this is only for you :)

Edited by Azrael, 07 March 2005 - 03:57 PM.


#66 Astyanax

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Posted 08 March 2005 - 05:02 PM

Yeah, don't feel bad, Dan2. In the grand scheme of things, the CTD is considered the most fluid, as changes to text can be made with greater ease than changes to artwork, changes to computer code, or changes to sounds. No text is exempt from this treatment; it's just another fact of life here in the CTD. Still, when the battlescape starts to become more fleshed out, perhaps the programmers/senior members might be open to a few ideas. :P

As for the triangulation system, I could go either way. It adds a nice touch to the text, but it is by no means essential to the CT. As for the Terror Disc issue, maybe the gravity-waves exerted by units hovering near the ground generate vibrations that "fortuitously" trigger proximity grenades in their immediate vicinity. As units hover further from the ground, the gravity-waves are more diffuse and are not strong enough to trigger the proximity device... :)

Edited by Astyanax, 08 March 2005 - 05:05 PM.

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#67 dan2

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Posted 08 March 2005 - 05:50 PM

But what do you think about the latest version of the text? Is it going to be red all over? Or does it sound right to you in this form?

#68 Astyanax

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Posted 08 March 2005 - 06:48 PM

All right, all right. Sheesh, the things I do for the CTD. ;)

Let's take a look. Um... what can I say? It always looks far worse than it really is... :( But the ideas are good; it's easier for me to work with pre-existing ideas than make them myself. :P

The usual stuff: Red text indicates additions, orange text indicates deletions, and blue text indicates comments or suggestions.

[PROXIMITY GRENADE]
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is a powerful explosive tactical/strategic? "Explosive" is implied later with "landmine" device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, but except? once it lands, it behaves like acts as? a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well-armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains only one a single switch, coupled with a miniaturized timer, basic/simple? electronics, and two detectors, and also a large amount quantity? of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell.

The very highly? stable yet very powerful explosive inside within? the [Proximity Grenade] is a moldable mixture of based on the well-known chemical compound cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, also known as "Rapid Detonating Explosive" (RDX), which is mixed with shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers into a moldable material, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

After priming Once the [Proximity grenade] is activated, a pressure detector on the bottom underside? of the grenade allows a battery to send power to the proximity detection circuits as soon as the grenade lands on the ground and the timer keeps the grenade activated long enough until the end of the battle activates the proximity detector for (xx minutes/the duration of the battle) once the grenade settles on the ground. When the vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets are detected by the proximity detector (3 piezoelectric crystalls positioned in an equilateral triangle formation) shape inside the grenade, a simple electronic device is able to extrapolate triangulates the distance and the speed of the origin of the moving target based the proximity detector's readings vibration based on the time required for each crystall to receive the vibration. Anything Objects traveling faster than a few meters per second is ignored as being a are assumed to be thrown objects, explosions, or fired ammo ammunition and are subsequently ignored, but anything objects traveling at slower speeds are slower is considered as a to be hostile units. As a target approaches below a Once a suitable target reaches the threshold distance, the detection circuit allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit, triggering and trigger the RDX-based explosive in housed within? the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius of xx meters;, and our soldiers should take care not to get caught inside it Maybe: "...our soldiers should take care not to be within this area when the [proximity grenade] detonates".

Caution is recommended when using [Proximity Grenades], since and accurate records of any thrown activated explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental injury or death of any friendly unit casualties. Also, walking or running with an activated [Proximity grenade] inside one's inventory is strictly prohibited by the manufacturer. Deleted the previous sentence because it doesn't really fit here After the [proximity grenade]'s internal battery is spent, it self-deactivates, and the inert grenades battle, the self-deactivated [Proximity grenade]s are collected and stored for the further later use.

EDIT- made some minor tweaks.

Edited by Astyanax, 09 March 2005 - 05:32 PM.

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#69 dan2

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 10:21 PM

All right, all right.  Sheesh, the things I do for the CTD. ;)

Let's take a look.  Um... what can I say?  It always looks far worse than it really is... :(  But the ideas are good; it's easier for me to work with pre-existing ideas than make them myself. :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have no idea why work three times making the text red, yellow and blue when you can just post your improved version of the text, but I guess that's the way it is. I eliminated all colors from text and I tried to simplify it a bit.
I still think there should be a warning for players not to arm this type of grenade and then move their soldiers with the activated grenade in their hand or backpack, but it's the second time I'm asked to take it out. I did this mistake so many times in the begining, but I guess others should find it out on their own and not from this description.
Before yelling at me about the air vibrations, remember that a cube-shaped cell in the game is actually 1 meter wide, 1 meter long and 2 meters tall and the grenade have a threshold of 1 meter.
I assume a Cyberdisk is not extremely silent (does it have engines or what?).

[PROXIMITY GRENADE]
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/[Proximity grenade]

The [Proximity Grenade] is a powerful tactical device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, except once it lands, it acts as a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains only single switch coupled with a miniaturized timer, integrated circuitry, detectors, and also a large quantity of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell.

The highly stable yet very powerful explosive within the [Proximity Grenade] is a moldable mixture of cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, also known as "Rapid Detonating Explosive" (RDX), shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

After priming, a pressure detector on the underside of the grenade activates the proximity detector for the duration of the battle once the grenade settles on the ground. When the proximity detector, based on piezoelectric crystals, receives ground or air vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets, a simple electronic device triangulates the distance and the speed of the moving target based on the proximity detector's readings. Objects traveling faster than a few meters per second are assumed to be thrown objects, explosions, or fired ammunition and are subsequently ignored, but objects traveling at slower speeds are considered to be hostile units. Once a suitable target reaches the threshold distance, the detection circuit allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit, triggering the RDX-based explosive within the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius; our soldiers should take care not to be within this area when the [proximity grenade] detonates.

Caution is recommended when using [Proximity Grenades], and accurate records of any activated explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental casualties. After the [proximity grenade]'s internal battery is spent, it self-deactivates, and the inert grenades are collected and stored for later use.



#70 Astyanax

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 11:20 PM

Regarding the multi-colored method by which I proofread... believe me, it would be far easier for me to zip right through changing things. For a while, I wished I could do so, but I was asked to do it this way. Since then, I've reconsidered. As these are not my texts, I want to leave a trail of what I'm actually doing- so some changes can be accepted while others can be rejected. Sometimes my manner of proofreading may be a bit intimidating, but to be honest, I like it when people experiment with the changes I make- it shows to me that the writer is taking an active role in the text's creation. Although I can make extensive changes should a text need it during a later proofreading round (where the original writer has no say), I prefer to have texts evolve in Active where the owner has a definitive voice. That way, by the time the text leaves Active, there will be little left to change, and both the original writer and the proofreaders will be happy with the end result.

Forgive me if I've been too rough; I've been proofreading my roommate's business school essays for his applications, so I have been very meticulous of late. Let me know if I've been too harsh, alright? Just so you know, I seldom yell :P, but in my experience, writing is about draft after draft after draft... and lots of discussion and wrangling over ideas. Things continually change, and sometimes they change back to the way they were originally (I do make mistakes every now and then, you know). If I sound a bit "mystical" towards writing, it's because I have, er, a sort of artistic view of writing.

Anyway, I tend approach the texts more from a language viewpoint, and I'm not quite as keen about the gameplay aspect. About the manufacturer's warning, I'm not sure about what the gameplay mechanics exactly are; I felt that it didn't fit as it was. I'll admit, when you asked me to look over your text this last time, I didn't pay much attention to the previous discussion, so if I have removed something you feel should be in the text, by all means leave it in, though perhaps this case could have used some rewording?

If indeed a primed proximity grenade will be triggered while it is still in the hand of its' owner, then you're right, it should be mentioned in the text. On another note, maybe the blast area is a hemisphere with a 1-meter radius?

In any case, remember that this is your text now, Dan2, not mine; make sure you're happy with the end result, ok?

Edited by Astyanax, 09 March 2005 - 11:32 PM.

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#71 Moriarty

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 08:45 AM

@dan2: I don't know if the thing with the 1m*1m*2m area will be true for xenocide. of course it was that way in X-Com, but if I remember correctly, in xenocide there will be no tiles. it's free-range movement all the way. and no cursor box, either.
I doubt, therefore I might be.

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#72 Astyanax

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 10:43 AM

Really? That'd be pretty neat! As it is, my computer doesn't even approach the specs needed to run Xenocide, :( so I'm left to torture my fellow writers in the CTD and maim their texts through my crazed rantings. :P

Wha?!! Not the jacket again! I had to wear that all last week!

Edited by Astyanax, 10 March 2005 - 10:43 AM.

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#73 dan2

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 11:34 AM

Regarding the multi-colored method by which I proofread... believe me, it would be far easier for me to zip right through changing things.  For a while, I wished I could do so.
So if I have removed something you feel should be in the text, by all means leave it in, though perhaps this case could have used some rewording?
If indeed a primed proximity grenade will be triggered while it is still in the hand of its' owner, then you're right, it should be mentioned in the text.  On another note, maybe the blast area is a hemisphere with a 1-meter radius?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wouldn't mind if you would rewrite the text. It's a team work, I hit the ball, you hit the ball, you know the drill. I guess an advantage with colours is that you can propose more than one change in blue. But after all your work, the text still stays mine, which is not really fair. I think.
Not only you asked me to take it out, it was also Azrael, so it's out. But in TFTD in the begining I was arming those grenades, runing with them till I was finding an alien, then throw them. To my big surprise they were not detonating on movement. I guess it's a bug, or something. If I was arming the grenade and throw it right away, it was working. Hence, my recommendation. It's no big deal, the game engine is different here, so this bug might be removed.
About the blast area, I want to keep it fuzzy, because one day the programming department might think it's power is 70 (equivalent of 7 meter radius) and suddenly decide it would be better to be 100. Why change the text, anyway? I left it as "large", leaving some room for modifications.
As I said earlier, they're not my texts, they're our texts, to all those who came with improvements or constructive comments. I guess I'm the one supposed to pay alimony for this text, am I? :)

#74 Astyanax

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 12:08 PM

LOL

I never thought of the CTD as an orphanage, nor its members as deadbeat parents skipping out on child support, nor paid much attention to the wild-eyed, straitjacketed fellow raving in the corner... though this concept might be worth exploring a bit... :P

Well, I'm not too sure how the prox. grenade will actually work, but I'm sure the text can be fixed when it is finally decided. Personal preference- I like to add as much detail as I can without affecting readability. Although these are supposedly scientific research reports, I try to keep as many details in the text as possible without becoming as dry and soulless as scientific articles can often be. :P

The whole ownership aspect is for establishing a hierarchy. In situations where the owner and another disagree strongly- the owner will have the final say. This also prevents someone else deciding to rewrite a text from scratch- the owner's contributions will always be considered to some extent, even if the owner disappears. It helps to prevent the chaos associated with myriad versions of the same text. ;)

Honestly, I don't need much recognition- I'm just a non-recovering proofread-a-holic- and I already have one text to call my own. :) Whether or not the prox. genade text will be classified as a group collaboration is in someone else's hands. :P

In any case, I'll probably be a lot less invasive (comments rather than word-by-word corrections) in my future proofreadings in Active- I have a bunch of Phase 2 proofreadings to work on, too, and I can't just shirk my duties just because I have more fun in Active... :P I can be stern, but rest assured all criticism is meant wholeheartedly in a constructive fashion. Keep up the good work, Dan2.

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#75 dan2

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 12:09 PM

@dan2: I don't know if the thing with the 1m*1m*2m area will be true for xenocide. of course it was that way in X-Com, but if I remember correctly, in xenocide there will be no tiles. it's free-range movement all the way. and no cursor box, either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess the floaters will float at least 2 meters high in order to be safe from a proximity grenade, then. I don't know, I love cursors, it gives me a sense of order and neatness. Although I love LBA, it has some problems with all that free movement, I hope this game won't be that buggy :)

#76 Astyanax

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 12:31 PM

LBA- Little Big Adventure?
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#77 dan2

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 12:37 PM

LBA- Little Big Adventure?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, Little Big Adventure, a great game with free movement. I was able to play it well even on my 386, long time ago. Did you like it, too?

#78 Astyanax

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 12:45 PM

It was AWESOME!!! I was especially amused by his "aggressive" stance. LOL

I still have to beat LBA2, though; I should dig it up. It's one of the few games that will still run on my ancient computer. :P Thanks for reminding me of such a cool game, Dan2!

Edited by Astyanax, 10 March 2005 - 12:46 PM.

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#79 dan2

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 01:24 PM

I didn't finish LBA2 either, I was really deep inside it, but at some point I decide to play something else and I forgot about it. When I moved I didn't take the CD with me, so I download it from net, but to my big surprise it was in spanish. I don't understand much spanish, so I can't play it well. I didn't find it for sale yet, but I still have hope.
Now time for fluff:
"What, you're saying you're going to leave your proofreading post for fun with a gaaaammmmmeeeeeee???? Where is Azrael when you need him, a few whips on your back and you're back to work :) "
Going back on serious, you have fun with it :) , it's a requirement for writing or proofreading texts to be happy in the begining. It's preventing you from ripping too much hair when you see so many mistakes

Edited by dan2, 10 March 2005 - 02:52 PM.


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Posted 11 March 2005 - 06:24 PM

I didn't finish LBA2 either

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did :NyaNyaNya: , great game!, too bad I seem to have misplaced my copy of it :(, it's one of the greatest games of old, along with LBA 1 of course :)

#81 dan2

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Posted 12 March 2005 - 11:20 PM

I didn't finish LBA2 either

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I did :NyaNyaNya: , great game!, too bad I seem to have misplaced my copy of it :(, it's one of the greatest games of old, along with LBA 1 of course :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you play it in spanish or english? I remembered why I didn't finish it. I got stuck on that car track, I wasn't able to exceed the speed of the other competitor. Is there any trick there?

#82 dan2

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 10:40 PM

Very minor corrections :)

PROXIMITY GRENADE
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/Proximity grenade

The [Proximity Grenade] is a powerful tactical device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, except once it lands, it acts as a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains only a single switch coupled with a miniaturized timer, integrated circuitry, detectors, and also a large quantity of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell.

The highly stable yet very powerful explosive within the [Proximity Grenade] is a moldable mixture of cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, also known as "Rapid Detonating Explosive" (RDX), shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

After priming, a pressure detector on the underside of the grenade activates the proximity detector for the duration of the battle once the grenade settles on the ground. When the proximity detector, based on piezoelectric crystals, receives ground or air vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets, a simple electronic device triangulates the distance and the speed of the moving target based on the proximity detector's readings. Objects traveling faster than a few meters per second are assumed to be thrown objects, explosions, or fired ammunition and are subsequently ignored, but objects traveling at slower speeds are considered to be hostile units. Once a suitable target reaches the threshold distance, the detection circuit allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit, triggering the RDX-based explosive within the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius; our soldiers should take care not to be within this area when the [Proximity Grenade] detonates.

Caution is recommended when using [Proximity Grenade]s, and accurate records of any activated explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental casualties. After the [Proximity Grenade]'s internal battery is spent, it self-deactivates, and the inert grenades are collected and stored for later use.



#83 Moriarty

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 03:22 AM

we have been discussing this before: I still don't like the deactivation mechanism you describe in the last paragraph. in you version, the grenade deactivates automatically after a given time. that is, always after the same period of time. that's kinda dumb. let's say this time is 10 minutes. if the battle is over after 2 minutes, you have to wait 8 more minutes... if the battle goes on for 20 minutes, the grenades shut down right in the middle of it.

I would make it like this: the grenades have a remote off-switch. a really really simple one, perhaps even one that the aliens might be able to replicate. but when the signal is sent, a timer starts, perhaps a five-minutes timer, and after that the grenade de-activates.

the point is, it makes the off-switch more usable for battles of different durations. and the aliens would not really gain anything from knowing the off-switch-signal, because it does not shut down the grenade instantly.

am I making sense?
I doubt, therefore I might be.

Posted Image,the sneaky little bastard.

#84 dan2

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 09:59 AM

Yes, perfectly.
But you avoided a question I asked earlier, in order to transform my text.
I'll put it again: "How much time takes a battle in geoscape time?". Or how much time a turn takes? Also, in geoscape time.

#85 Moriarty

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 10:53 AM

actually, I don't have a clue. :D
thing is, in the original game, a battle lastet exactly 0 seconds geoscape time :) I suppose this was in order to prevent anything happening without you being able to look. then again, it was definitely over in very little time compared to the events in the geoscape.
I doubt, therefore I might be.

Posted Image,the sneaky little bastard.

#86 dan2

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 11:04 AM

PROXIMITY GRENADE
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/Proximity grenade

The [Proximity Grenade] is a powerful tactical device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, except once it lands, it acts as a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well armored targets.

The [Proximity Grenade] contains only a single switch coupled with a miniaturized timer, integrated circuitry, detectors, and also a large quantity of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell.

The highly stable yet very powerful explosive within the [Proximity Grenade] is a moldable mixture of cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, also known as "Rapid Detonating Explosive" (RDX), shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

After priming, a pressure detector on the underside of the grenade activates the proximity detector for the duration of the battle once the grenade settles on the ground. When the proximity detector, based on piezoelectric crystals, receives ground or air vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets, a simple electronic device triangulates the distance and the speed of the moving target based on the proximity detector's readings. Objects traveling faster than a few meters per second are assumed to be thrown objects, explosions, or fired ammunition and are subsequently ignored, but objects traveling at slower speeds are considered to be hostile units. Once a suitable target reaches the threshold distance, the detection circuit allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit, triggering the RDX-based explosive within the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius; our soldiers should take care not to be within this area when the [Proximity Grenade] detonates.

Caution is recommended when using [Proximity Grenade]s, and accurate records of any activated explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental casualties. When the battle is over, the computer on the ship is transforming a unique deactivation code into engine core vibrations, powerful and with a very specific modulation and sequence, that propagate all over the battlefield. When such deactivating code is received through the vibration detector, all [Proximity Grenade]s are self-deactivated, and the inert grenades are collected and stored for later use.


So, is it better or I fixed a problem, but made two worse ones?

#87 Moriarty

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 12:42 PM

very clever system... the grenades listen for vibrations anyway, and the right kind of vibrations switches them off... that's a very good idea!

I'd re-phrase the bit about "accurate records of any activated explosive device must be kept" - keeping records sounds too much like soldiers sitting in the middle of the battlefield and drawing little maps or scribbling down "one grenade is two steps to the right of the big tree that looks like the commander, one is in the bush that is next to the little puddle where the stupid rookie was hit by the grey..."
:D
I doubt, therefore I might be.

Posted Image,the sneaky little bastard.

#88 dan2

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Posted 16 March 2005 - 12:56 PM

very clever system... the grenades listen for vibrations anyway, and the right kind of vibrations switches them off... that's a very good idea!

I'd re-phrase the bit about "accurate records of any activated explosive device must be kept" - keeping records sounds too much like soldiers sitting in the middle of the battlefield and drawing little maps or scribbling down "one grenade is two steps to the right of the big tree that looks like the commander, one is in the bush that is next to the little puddle where the stupid rookie was hit by the grey..."
:D

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I didn't want to cram a radio receiver in the grenade, so I chose vibrations. Don't ask me why soldiers can't deactivate grenades individually during the battle, it seems obviously easy to do, but it's not used in Xcom, so.... beats me :blink:
About accurate records, I know, it's beaurocratic, but here's my funny story:
In my no-save-in-battlescape campaign, I activated once a grenade, but I was unable to throw it near the alien. I throw it somewhere else, thinking it would be out of the way. After some more exploring, I decided to send a soldier on a long path to the entrance of the USO. While my soldier was following the order, suddenly an explosion and the soldier is dead..... :huh?:
Darn, I should have kept some record in my mind about that lousy grenade, so here's the origin of the text.
Of course, it doesn't sound quite right, I'll think of something better.

How about this, what do you think I missed?
http://www.xcomufo.c...ndpost&p=114285

#89 dan2

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 04:03 PM

I guess my text is getting mold after two months being untouched. Hmmm, nobody have anything to say for or against this text? :Leek:

#90 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 04:18 PM

I guess my text is getting mold after two months being untouched. Hmmm, nobody have anything to say for or against this text?  :Leek:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry dan2, school kept me busy :D, I promise to take a look tomorrow, I have to read a lot of texts :Leek:

#91 Astyanax

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 05:54 PM

If you call, commentators will come. :Tomato: You know me, I tend to give lots of suggestions- they are just things that crossed my mind while I was reading the text.

I really liked Az's coloring scheme; I'll give it a whirl here. ;)

PROXIMITY GRENADE
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/Proximity grenade

The [Proximity Grenade] is a powerful tactical device that is thrown like an ordinary grenade, 1except once it lands, it acts as a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The [Proximity Grenade] is 3manufactured for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. 2Nevertheless, it remains effective enough to be used against even well armored targets.

1.) Nothing wrong, just a rewording suggestion: "...thrown like an ordinary grenade but acts like a landmine triggered by nearby movement once it comes to a stop/comes to rest/lands/settles."
2.) Repetition of "manufacture" here. Suggest changing the first one to "constructed", "assembled", or "produced"?
3.) The usage of "nevertheless" here currently implies that items made by contract manufacturers are of lesser quality than X-Corps manufactured stuff. If that's what you mean, then ignore this comment; I just want to make sure this is what you're trying to say.


The [Proximity Grenade] contains only a single switch coupled with a miniaturized timer, integrated circuitry, detectors, and also a large quantity of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell.

The highly stable yet very powerful explosive within the [Proximity Grenade] is a moldable mixture of cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, also known as "Rapid Detonating Explosive" (RDX), shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

After priming, a pressure detector on the underside of the grenade activates the proximity detector for the duration of the battle once the grenade settles on the ground. When the 4proximity detector, based on piezoelectric crystals, receives ground or air vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets, a simple electronic device triangulates the distance and the speed of the moving target based on the proximity detector's readings. Objects traveling 5faster than a few meters per second are assumed to be thrown objects, explosions, or fired ammunition and are subsequently ignored, but 6objects traveling at slower speeds are 7considered to be hostile units. Once a 8suitable target 9reaches the threshold distance, the detection circuit 10allows a small electrical current to flow through the detonator's circuit, triggering the RDX-based explosive within the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius; our soldiers should take care not to be within this area when the [Proximity Grenade] detonates.

4.) I was trying to simplify this sentence a bit: "When the (piezoelectric) proximity detector receives land and air vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets, it generates readings that are used to triangulate the target's distance and velocity" (doesn't mention what trangulates the distance and velocity) or "When the (piezoelectric) proximity detector receives land or air vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets, it triangulates its distance and velocity" (assumes the triangulation device is part of the proximity detector).
5.) "in excess of"?
6.) "slower objects"?
7.) "presumed", "assumed"?
8.) "hostile"?
9.) "comes within a", "enters within a"?
10.) "...the detector trips the detonator's circuit..."?


Caution 11is recommended when using [Proximity Grenade]s, 12and accurate records of any activated explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental casualties. When the battle is over, 13the computer on the ship is transforming a unique deactivation code into engine core vibrations, powerful and with a very specific modulation and sequence, that propagate all over the battlefield. 14When such deactivating code is received through the vibration detector, all [Proximity Grenade]s are self-deactivated, and the inert grenades are collected and stored for later use.

11.) "must be exercised"?
12.) "because"?
13.) "...a computer onboard the transport ship can transmit the deactivation code, a uniquely modulated sequence of engine core vibrations, over the entire battle area" or "...a computer onboard the transport can translate the deactivation code into a uniquely modulated sequence of engine core vibrations and transmit them over the entire battle area"?
14.) "Upon reception of/receiving the deactivating code, the [Proximity Grenade]s self-disarm..."?

Edited by Astyanax, 16 May 2005 - 04:47 PM.

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#92 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 07:40 PM

If you call, commentators will come. :Tomato: You know me, I tend to give lots of suggestions- they are just things that crossed my mind while I was reading the text.

I really liked Az's coloring scheme; I'll give it a whirl here. ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Oh god, I've created a bigger monster! RUN :chickenrun:

#93 Astyanax

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Posted 13 May 2005 - 10:55 PM

Oh god, I've created a bigger monster! RUN  :chickenrun:

:Tomato: :Tomato: :Tomato:

"You can run, but you'll only die tired!" :naughty:
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#94 GDD

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 02:08 PM

I'm just wondering how are the Prox Grens and Motion sensor connected?

Motion sensor detects movement, the Prox Grens do so like wise but explode.

Is this a tech tree issue because prox seem to come at the start of the game but motion sensors have to be researched.

:Poke:

#95 mikker

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Posted 14 May 2005 - 03:06 PM

that is actually a very good idea. Why not create a sensor tech line, starting with researching sensor tech, afterwards you can research prox. mines, motion sensor, and maybe, just maybe, the large redar?

Some people say that dreams are a portal to the subconscious. If that is so, I am a very disturbed person.

the truth about scientology

#96 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 15 May 2005 - 01:08 AM

Nice idea, but for now our tech tree is pretty much that of X-Com1, with few differences :). Probably for the labs.

#97 dan2

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Posted 23 May 2005 - 05:13 PM

PROXIMITY GRENADE
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/ProximityGrenade

The Proximity Grenade is a powerful grenade that once activated and landed on solid ground, it acts as a landmine triggered by nearby movement. The Proximity Grenade is assembled for the X-Corps by contract manufacturers, allowing our engineers to focus on more important tasks. Still, it is effective enough to be used against even well armored targets.

The Proximity Grenade contains only a single switch coupled with a miniaturized timer, integrated circuitry, detectors, and also a large quantity of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell.

The highly stable yet very powerful explosive within the Proximity Grenade is a moldable mixture of cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, also known as "Rapid Detonating Explosive" (RDX), shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers, and it is triggered via an electrothermal detonator connected to a simple proximity detection system.

After priming, a pressure detector on the underside of the grenade activates the proximity detector for the duration of the battle once the grenade settles on the ground. When the piezoelectric proximity detector receives land or air vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets, it triangulates the distance and velocity of the moving target based on the proximity detector's readings. Objects traveling faster than a few meters per second are assumed to be thrown objects, explosions, or fired ammunition and are subsequently ignored, but slower movements are presumed to be coming from hostile units. Once such target enters within a threshold distance, the detection circuit trips the detonator, which triggers the RDX-based explosive within the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius; our soldiers should take care not to be within this area when the Proximity Grenade detonates.

Caution must be exercised when using Proximity Grenades, because accurate records of any activated explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental casualties. When the battle is over, a computer onboard the transport can translate the deactivation code into a uniquely modulated sequence of engine core vibrations and transmit them over the entire battle area. Upon receiving the deactivating code, the Proximity Grenades self-disarm, and the inert grenades are collected and stored for later use.



#98 Astyanax

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 12:34 PM

Looks good! =b

Does anyone know for sure whether proximity grenades can be reused once primed, but unexploded? It's not a big deal- if they can't, the last line can be changed from "...are collected and stored for later use" to "...are collected for disposal". Otherwise, it's fine as it is.
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#99 dan2

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Posted 24 May 2005 - 12:53 PM

Does anyone know for sure whether proximity grenades can be reused once primed, but unexploded?  It's not a big deal- if they can't, the last line can be changed from "...are collected and stored for later use" to "...are collected for disposal".  Otherwise, it's fine as it is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm sure they can be reused (in TFTD), but maybe somebody else knows otherwise...

#100 dan2

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Posted 28 May 2005 - 08:59 AM

PROXIMITY GRENADE
X-Net://Pegasus.net/Equipment/ProximityGrenade

The Proximity Grenade is a weapon that offers specific tactical advantages no other weapon can. Among such advantages are setting traps from a distance, securing areas and passages and increasing the vulnerability of any incoming attacker. The Proximity Grenades are available commercially and delivered promptly by reliable army suppliers, decreasing the burden on our engineers and allowing them to focus on more important tasks. Still, the Proximity Grenade is powerful enough to be effective even against well armored targets.

Once the Proximity Grenade is activated and landed on solid ground, it starts acting as a landmine triggered by nearby movement. Since the movement detection is simplified and undiscriminatory, the use of Proximity Grenades in populated areas is not recommended.

The Proximity Grenade contains a single switch conected to a battery, integrated computational circuitry, miniaturized detectors and also a large quantity of powerful explosive, all enveloped in a lightweight titanium shell. After priming, a pressure detector on the underside of the grenade determines when it is settled on the ground and then activates the movement detection circuits.

The highly stable and very powerful explosive within the Proximity Grenade is a moldable mixture containing cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, also known as RDX (Rapid Detonating Explosive), shock inhibitors, radical stabilizers and plasticizers, which is triggered via an electrothermal detonator.

When the piezoelectric proximity detector receives land or air vibrations characteristic of moving ground targets, it triangulates the distance and velocity of the moving target based on the proximity detector's continuous readings. Objects traveling faster than a few meters per second, like thrown objects, explosions, or fired ammunition, are too fast to be analyzed or considered as targets and subsequently ignored, but slower movements are presumed to be coming from hostile units. Once such target enters within a threshold distance, the detection circuit trips the detonator, which triggers the RDX-based explosive within the next compartment. The resulting explosion has a large blast radius and can damage or even kill any target having a thin lower armor.

Accurate records of any activated explosive device must be kept in order to prevent accidental casualties. When the battle is over, a computer onboard the transport can translate the deactivation code into a uniquely modulated sequence of engine core vibrations and transmit them over the entire battle area. Upon receiving the deactivating code, the Proximity Grenades self-disarm, and the inert grenades are collected and stored for later use.

"I said my office is SECURE, not TO BE SECURED. Now how am I suppose to enter with that Proximity Grenade sitting right in front of my door?" said Captain Brenny to his fresh new guards


Edited by dan2, 30 May 2005 - 01:28 PM.