Better Lasers?

[T-1]

In X-Com: Interceptor, you can research "advanced lasers" which are fired through an elerium crystal, making them more powerful. you could do the same thing in Xenocide, maybe (Well, xenium instead of elerium, and infantry lasers instead of spacecraft lasers, of course.). Would make the lasers more useful later in the game.

[[Blehm 98]]

I don't think lasers need to be better. They are still usefull later in the game as back-up, killing sectopods, etc. and they are still usefull for killing all aliens but mutons and etherials.

[PopeBij]

What about, instead of better lasers...DIFFERNT LASERS. I have always wanted to see a beam fly out of a laser cannon and rip through stuff. Like the laser pistol :uzzi2: probably couldn’t shoot through a wall but maybe a hedge or something. Also It could fire faster. Then the rifle :laser: can shoot through a wall maybe an alien (if it kills it) or something not too extreme. It would fire a little slower. Then the big gun can blast though almost anything. Yet you couldn’t fire it nearly as fast as a rifle or pistol. The beam could get weaker and weaker as it passed through things, That way you cant just blindly light up a house and kill everything inside of it. I dunno just an idea.

[fux0r666]

I think that using elerium for everything from household cleaning to improving the efficiency of nuclear reactors and from powering your car to eliminating the reproductive capacity of pests is cheesy. We should figure out what elerium does and stick with it.

[[dipstick]]

Isn't it just a power source?

[fux0r666]

Doesn't it have gravitational properties?

[[dipstick]]

touche!

 

It does in the grav shield I think and avenger

[Cpl. Facehugger]

I'd be happy with different kinds of laser, like an advanced gattling laser that can only fire on auto shot, and takes a small amount of TUs to fire.

 

heck, a heavy laser with autoshot would work too. That's the main thing that put me off the heavy laser. Otherwise, I would have likely sticked with lasers instead of going to the heavy plasma.

[fux0r666]

If I had a multi-lensed laser, I'd want to to be firing out of all lenses at once instead of wasting energy spinning around!

[centurion]

If I had a multi-lensed laser, I'd want to to be firing out of all lenses at once instead of wasting energy spinning around!

And after a very short period of time, you'd want to have a bucket of ice nearby to put your hands in it

[fux0r666]

why? The barrels won't get hot, they're lenses. If the capacitors get hot, spinning the barrels around isn't going to help matters. It's not going to increase your output of joules/second.

[Robo Dojo 58]

Well, why don't you cycle the part that actually gets hot, then? My guess is that would be the laser emitters.

 

You take 6 or so little laser emitters, and place them on a spinner. You overshoot them barely within their limits, then you switch to the next one. As that one fires, the heated one gets exposed to the air, and cools off until it is cycled back in again. You get a nearly continuous fire available, since the heat load is divided between multiple emitters. The way it works and fires would be reminiscent of a gatling gun.

 

Plus, with the emitters exposed through the cycle, it allows an easy change if one should get damaged, possibly even while you shoot. (not a smart idea though) You can always have that gun working at full capacity.

 

Edit: Although, that gun would probably be more like a revolver than a gatling gun... oh well.

Edited August 5, 2004 by Robo Dojo 58

[fux0r666]

you could just have a cooling system... and heat sinks... For the man-portable ones you would just have a thermostat that locked out the firer when it was getting too hot. What would heat up is the electrical components where there is a lot of current.

 

Why would someone want to carry around 3 lasers? You could double the weight more efficiently by having a liquid nitrogen cooler.

[T-1]

In interceptor the other advanced laser is called a "gatling" laser. All it is is a plain laser with a much better cooling system, and it fires about 10 times faster (probobly my favorite beam weapon in that game next to the plain tracer cannon (tracking tracer cannon requires no skill.)).

[centurion]

[...]What would heat up is the electrical components where there is a lot of current.

 

Why would someone want to carry around 3 lasers?  You could double the weight more efficiently by having a liquid nitrogen cooler.

Just being a laser doesn't mean not giving off light/heat in all other directions from the active body.

 

Why do you think the "standard" lasers don't already have a liquid nitrogen cooler?

 

Btw a "gatling" laser would probably be most practical without moving the whole laser beam generating apparatus around, just having several beam generators fire at suitable moments to produce a uniform rate of fire and arranging them to converge on some sensible distance.

[fux0r666]

They have coolers because high current produces heat.

 

My point was that the BARREL does not generate any, and spinning the barrels to cool the laser would be an excercise in futility.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Okay, what about the automatic heavy laser? That could work, right? And it would usurp the heavy plasma in my armories as well!

[centurion]

GAMEPLAY BALANCE may suffer from an automatic heavy laser.

[fux0r666]

You could have a 'heavy support' laser on a HWP or something. that would be cool.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

GAMEPLAY BALANCE may suffer from an automatic heavy laser.

 

It wouldn't suffer any more than an automatic heavy plasma. Plus, it would make the heavy laser viable again.

[fux0r666]

The thing about strategy games is that all strategies aren't equal. Attempting to make all technology equal and every idea a good idea sort of sacrifices the possibilities for the player to streamline his loadout in order to find the most effective weapons.

[T-1]

Make it require some really high tech, like say, the Blaster Launcher or something (You could use the excuse of the Blaster Launcher has an excellent cooling system that could be adapted to laser use.).

[Antti]

Relaying facts from no 'real' world:

 

Lasers require tons of power (compressed photons concentrically) and build up riveting amounts of heat. Considering a laser weapon with destructive power, enough to slice through paper would require the total accumulated number of refrigerators on this planet (currently) to cool it down (slightly exaggerated) - so maybe the laser weapon 'wet dream' concept should be altered to something much more Sci-Fi oriented?

 

Like Quackon Blasters which are designed to exploit the relative excitement within deuterium molecular structures retained in totally alien, microscopic vacuum compartments, utilizing highly excited particles focusing the latent energies present through Quartz cellulite carbon composites. In essence, an alien weapon, when obtained and later analyzed, revealing some of the horrible facts of the aliens endeavors on planet earth - why they pray on earthly living sentinel beings!

 

Or, the ‘Squash grenade launcher’ with which the aliens discharge powerful base grenades, liquidifying all matter in a relative area of impact, afterwards scooping the liquids up for use in their Quackon Blasters and other assorted devises?

 

But this ‘flesh-convenience-store’ concept should only be a minor motivating factor explaining the alien incursions to our world, if at all that is?

 

Just a little suggestion for changes in the Xenocide project, however, retaining the original settings - just one new ‘minute’ alteration incorporating features corresponding to two distinct game elements, namely the ‘Story line’ and ‘Combat’?

 

With kind regards

Yours Truly

Antti

 

‘Not much faith    in faith  :o of others these days  ’

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[fux0r666]

I think that what was special about the lasers in xcom was that they were purely human tech and they were effective. There's a certain amount of pride in that and I think that developments in lasers should be human based.

[x0563511]

Um, cutting through a peice of paper would require the cooling ability of all the worlds refrigerators? Dont we use lasers in machining? Ive seen lasers cutting through steel... certainly the cooling system isnt THAT large...

 

Heres an idea...

 

A laser that takes 'turns' to charge up, and releases the laser in a burst (a quick, extremely high-energy pulse) that could essentially flambe a target and set the immediate area on fire?

[T-1]

I think that what was special about the lasers in xcom was that they were purely human tech and they were effective.  There's a certain amount of pride in that and I think that developments in lasers should be human based.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, that's definatly a big part of their appeal. That's probobly why the whole "Revitalizing Firearms" thread started. There's still an element of that there if we improve these with alien tech. But not as much. So maybe a timer after you research lasers? 6 months, then a scientist gets the idea of a better cooling system and the autolaser tech becomes availible for research?

[[dipstick]]

btw I did suggest gatling lasers.... oooh about a year ago IIRC I even began CTDs on an entire set of gatling lasers ( to mirror (excuse the pun) the standard laser series) No-one seemed to be interested then - let me see if I have the CTDs somewhere...

[T-1]

Actually I just read about them, it was with the ion stuff. It's posted in one of the forums.

[x0563511]

No thoughts on my idea? Kinda sucks, that was an idea that was tossed around my head for half a year once. I even had some basic schematics drawn at one point (untill i realized that moving the laser (at all) once it was charged past a certain point would result in the thing melting itself apart (the perfect back-and-forth of the photons would go crooked and melt through the side of the tube - if not melting it then turning into a glorified camera flash upon firing)

[T-1]

Wouldn't set the surround area on fire instantantly, it'd take time, the laser is a very thin beam.

[x0563511]

No no, the idea is you get that 'very small beam' to bounce back and forth in a charging chamber while constantly adding more photons.

 

What you essentually get is a 'flash'... but its a flash in a tight beam. The heat generated at impact would be enough to incinerate the local area (the impact point itself) and inflame the surrounding area.

 

 

You would punch a small short hole in the enemy (the intense heat would transfer and more or less kill/cripple it) and the immediate area MAY set on fire, say it was standing in a wheat field near harvest.

 

 

EDIT: The flash from a nuke (the light alone) can burn the skin right off of your body. Imagin a beam of something like that powered from xenium.

Edited August 8, 2004 by x0563511

[T-1]

No no, the idea is you get that 'very small beam' to bounce back and forth in a charging chamber while constantly adding more photons.

 

What you essentually get is a 'flash'... but its a flash in a tight beam. The heat generated at impact would be enough to incinerate the local area (the impact point itself) and inflame the surrounding area.

 

 

You would punch a small short hole in the enemy (the intense heat would transfer and more or less kill/cripple it) and the immediate area MAY set on fire, say it was standing in a wheat field near harvest.

 

 

EDIT: The flash from a nuke (the light alone) can burn the skin right off of your body. Imagin a beam of something like that powered from xenium.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Needs to be carefully designed so that it doesn't reflect straight back into what generates the beam, then .

[x0563511]

Sorry for the double post... youve probably noticed i have a strange attachment to thinking through the damaging effects of weapons...

 

I study weapons (not to learn the guns, but the principals) in my spare time sometims and i (strangly) like to think up new and different ways of causing damage...

 

 

 

 

 

Should i seek help about that? (j/k - i think about it from a totaly detached view - no emotional involvement)

[GDD]

what about a laser gun which can fire through stuff (no unlimited) but then you could shoot two aliens standing behind each other

[x0563511]

Needs to be carefully designed so that it doesn't reflect straight back into what generates the beam, then  .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

We can already make mirrors that let light pass only one way, and reflect the other. With some pedal-to-the-medal research (not necessarily alien) we could refine this ability. We can also make mirrors that 'switch off' and allow light to pass through when electrical current is passed through. I have witnessed the two-way mirror, but only heard of the switchable mirror.

 

 

 

The problem is. you have all that energy bouncing back and forth in a uniform direction... imagin what would happen if that beam was not magnetically contained to that direction, and the container, reflecter, and emmiter chaged attitude(rotated)? BIG TROUBLE... but then this is a fictional game, so we can ignore that little factor...

 

EDIT: as far as the depth: the longer the barrel-space (not neccesarily one strait barrel... could be a coil or a stack) the longer the burn-time of the flash... increasing the depth of penetration. Just remember that the heat transfer alone would kill, not the penetration. Light doesnt travel in an instant... give it some serious thought and it will begin to make sense...

Edited August 8, 2004 by x0563511

[centurion]

Right, imagine a laser being moved in a straight line with constant speed; since this is an inertia coordinate system (or whatever you call it), the laser will function in exactly the same way. With a circular orbit, you could tilt slightly the two bounding mirrors to get a working laser without "spilling" light all over the place.

 

The energy of the beam is proportional to the energy you put into the coil, no matter how long is the active body (longer active body may still be able to contain more energy before breaking).

 

Heat transfer through body is minuscule, given the time of the burst.

[x0563511]

All that energy goes somewhere, and it isnt all used burning INTO the object... surely enough heat would transfer to put a critter into shock at least...

 

 

And the lenght of the 'tube' does matter.. because when it is released the energy isnt gone at once, light has a definate speed... For example:

 

Say you had a tube with a total lenght of the distance from earth to the sun (for the sake of making this point) you would get an 8 minute stream of laser after you opened the 'valve' untill it ran out of stored energy...

 

 

EDIT: what im trying to say is:

the energy is the same, yes, but it would give it more time to burn deeper into the object... thuse causeing more useful damage.

Edited August 8, 2004 by x0563511

[T-1]

All that energy goes somewhere, and it isnt all used burning INTO the object... surely enough heat would transfer to put a critter into shock at least...

 

 

And the lenght of the 'tube' does matter.. because when it is released the energy isnt gone at once, light has a definate speed... For example:

 

Say you had a tube with a total lenght of the distance from earth to the sun (for the sake of making this point) you would get an 8 minute stream of laser after you opened the 'valve' untill it ran out of stored energy...

 

 

EDIT: what im trying to say is:

the energy is the same, yes, but it would give it more time to burn deeper into the object... thuse causeing more useful damage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Aren't you talking about how long the beam is being generated?

[x0563511]

Its hard to explain. The longer the 'tube' (active body) is, the longer the stream itself is... the longer the beam is generated the more energy in total there is.

 

The point in making the tube longer (wich i say tube for simplicity. It could be a crystal lattice for all it matters) is that it slows the burst down, allowing the beam to burn into the target deeper and allowing more time for useful heat transfer.

 

Lasers dont work like bullets, a faster 'burst' with a laser is good till a point, then you start loosing usefullness. Faster bullets produce 'shockwaves' and such which only get stronger with velocity.

 

You cant think of light as being instant (step away from our timescale... think on light's timescale).

[centurion]

All that energy goes somewhere, and it isnt all used burning INTO the object... surely enough heat would transfer to put a critter into shock at least...

 

 

And the lenght of the 'tube' does matter.. because when it is released the energy isnt gone at once, light has a definate speed... For example:

 

Say you had a tube with a total lenght of the distance from earth to the sun (for the sake of making this point) you would get an 8 minute stream of laser after you opened the 'valve' untill it ran out of stored energy...

 

 

EDIT: what im trying to say is:

the energy is the same, yes, but it would give it more time to burn deeper into the object... thuse causeing more useful damage.

The energy at impact is radiated in all directions, more readily towards the air as it's more transparent.

 

For the said tube: how long will you pump energy into that tube of yours to get that beam?

 

Well, the active body is only so long, and you get longer bursts if you use more reflective mirror on the "outgoing" end (the total energy transferred stays the same however).

[x0563511]

Ya, but if you slow down the transfer of energy out of the tube (ei a longer tube it would take longer (not much, but still) for all the energy to leave it)

 

Keep in mind that the generator would be powered by a xenium engine, so the average grunt would only need a turn or two to charge it. Im thinking of an interface KIND of like the grenade priming interface, but you get a couple extra turns to fire it before it backfires on you.

 

EDIT: dont forget its a game, the weapons dont have to be physically thought out and perfect...

Edited August 8, 2004 by x0563511

[centurion]

Ya, but if you slow down the transfer of energy out of the tube (ei a longer tube it would take longer (not much, but still) for all the energy to leave it)

 

Keep in mind that the generator would be powered by a xenium engine, so the average grunt would only need a turn or two to charge it. Im thinking of an interface KIND of like the grenade priming interface, but you get a couple extra turns to fire it before it backfires on you.

 

EDIT: dont forget its a game, the weapons dont have to be physically thought out and perfect...

For prolonging the energy transfer, see my previous post; longer tube is not a practical solution.

 

If you try to tell me that an active body from here to the Sun would be powered in a turn or two, you are in self-contradiction.

 

Don't forget that while it's a game, the concepts should be physically consistent; why make yourself the laughing stock of people who know the stuff you use?

[fux0r666]

Energy of a laser hitting something does 'radiate' in all directions, but the interaction is slightly more complex than that.

 

The energy of a laser hitting some object that isn't transparent to photons is built up at the point of focus. Some of the energy is lostthrough conduction through the mass of the material, and through radiation or convection to the surrounding medium or vaccuum. Should the target material get hot enough to melt or vapourize, portions of the material and the heat it contains is also lost to the environment.

 

Laser damage if it was a snap-like shot would probably happen by instantly transmitting an extraordinary amount of heat to the target material, which would vapourize a portion of it. The expanse of vapourous material would act like a small explosion on the surface of what's being hit.

 

All in all, in real life, I dunno if it's a very efficient way of causing harm but I think that's how it would go down.

[centurion]

I stand corrected.

[Tuoppi]

Laser damage if it was a snap-like shot would probably happen by instantly transmitting an extraordinary amount of heat to the target material, which would vapourize a portion of it. The expanse of vapourous material would act like a small explosion on the surface of what's being hit.

The damaging factor is that large energy is transferred to a very small area in very short time. That heats up the hitting point to melting/vaporization. I think that conduction is not a big broblem, the time is so short. If the hit continues more than few nanosecs and is intense enough, the materia is cut deeper as molten/vaporized material gets blown out of the way and allows the beam to cut even deeper. Then add a slashing movement and we have succesfully extracted a sectoid limb.

[centurion]

The problem is that the heat will produce vapor/plasma from the upper layer of whatever was hit, and that vapor/plasma is pretty good at absorbing heat. So the heat will not penetrate deep into the target, but get a thin upper layer blown outside.

[fux0r666]

Laser damage if it was a snap-like shot would probably happen by instantly transmitting an extraordinary amount of heat to the target material, which would vapourize a portion of it. The expanse of vapourous material would act like a small explosion on the surface of what's being hit.

The damaging factor is that large energy is transferred to a very small area in very short time. That heats up the hitting point to melting/vaporization. I think that conduction is not a big broblem, the time is so short. If the hit continues more than few nanosecs and is intense enough, the materia is cut deeper as molten/vaporized material gets blown out of the way and allows the beam to cut even deeper. Then add a slashing movement and we have succesfully extracted a sectoid limb.

 

There would be no time for anything to get blown out of the way in a nanosecond burst. Conduction would be the process under-which the energy penetrates, but due to the heat loss that matter undergoes when changing state. A lot of energy would be spent sublimating or melting. It would have to be a heck of a blast.

[x0563511]

The whole idea of a short-duration laser weapon is not practical, really. Now, if there was a weapon that required you to stand still (not do anything) and keep them in your field of view for a turn, that would be different.

[Tuoppi]

There would be no time for anything to get blown out of the way in a nanosecond burst. Conduction would be the process under-which the energy penetrates, but due to the heat loss that matter undergoes when changing state. A lot of energy would be spent sublimating or melting. It would have to be a heck of a blast.

 

Hmm... Didn't think of that. Stupid me. How transparent is the vaporized material anyway? Does few grams of it really hinder the high-intensity laser-beam, or does it let most of the beam to dig deeper?

 

How do the industrial lasers cope with problems? They do have the ability to cut through steel anyway... Longer duration at least, maybe our gun doesn't have to use microsec beam, how would be a 1/2 sec, with less intensity/same energy. IMO a whole turn is too much.

[fux0r666]

I saw a video where they used a cutting laser to simulate the heat of the atom bomb that hit hiroshima to try and study what happened to the building that the bomb detonated directly overtop... the laser did nothing to the metal. They had it under the hot laser and a jet of vaporous metal was flying off of it but in the end very little happened to the metal. The amount that was actually vaporized off of it was so minute and the energy loss so great that the laser couldn't keep up. Edited August 12, 2004 by fux0r666