Mind Control Question: How The heck Are They Doing This?

[daedalus2]

I'm doing my first base assault, and I am getting my donkey kicked. The main reason for this is that aliens are using mind control to completely cripple my offense. What I can't work out is how they are doing it. I had assumed the aliens needed line of sight, but that does not seem to be the case at all - some of the soliders getting attacked are in guaranteed safe areas or even closed rooms.

 

I have one theory. If the aliens take over a solidier successfully, do they then know where everyone else is and are thus able to psi attack them? Otherwise, I am stumped.

[uncy]

You probably shoudn't attack a Sectoid Base until you have a good team capable of resisting The Sectoid Commander's mind Control. I recomend you to leave that base alone (perhaps attack the supply ships that land on it).

 

Search for easier Alien Bases, like floaters, mutons and even Snakemen... Forget about Sectoid and Ethereal Bases (well, you will get them later on).

 

Once you've captured a Sectoid Leader, research him so you can start viewing your Soldiers's Psi Strenght. That way you can make a team with soldiers capable of resisting most Psi Attacks and Mind Control

 

Good Fight...

 

I'm doing my first base assault, and I am getting my donkey kicked. The main reason for this is that aliens are using mind control to completely cripple my offense. What I can't work out is how they are doing it. I had assumed the aliens needed line of sight, but that does not seem to be the case at all - some of the soliders getting attacked are in guaranteed safe areas or even closed rooms.

 

I have one theory. If the aliens take over a solidier successfully, do they then know where everyone else is and are thus able to psi attack them? Otherwise, I am stumped.

 

I forgot, They only need to spot just one of your soldiers, to successfully Psi Attack any of your soldiers... The ONLY thing that can "protect" weak Psi Soldiers from Mind Control is the distance from the "Psi Alien", but that is not very effective and rather useless in Alien Base Assauts...

Edited September 12, 2008 by Zombie

[Zombie]

The aliens know from the start of a mission where all your soldiers are located and their stats. They do not need to spot any of your men (or MC them) to do this. It's plain and simple cheating once you boil it down. Distance from a Psi alien does play a role in MC success, but at the start of a game all your soldiers all have 0 Psi Skill anyway which basically offers no defense against this form of attack. Depending on the skill level you are playing at, the aliens give you a short grace period before they start to wage MC attacks against your troops so fight hard from the start. Don't fool around and carefully move your soldiers forward inch by inch every round. Be brazen and explore as much of the map as you possibly can, killing aliens along the way. Once you locate the command center of the base, flood it with your men. If you have Heavy Plasmas, you can cut a hole in the wall near the inner door and come at the aliens from that direction too. Then kill the high ranking leaders and commander which are waging Psi attacks. Problem solved. Alternatively, shell the command center with Blaster Bombs. If you have Small Launchers, stun the aliens upstairs instead of killing them. The point here is to kill as many aliens as soon as you possibly can. The surviving aliens will be too busy panicking due to morale loss than MCing.

 

- Zombie

[[stewart]]

Bah its just mind control. All mind control means is you lose reaction fire. At the end of the round, try to be hidden (not for avoiding mind control but to avoid good old fashioned american getting shot at). Remember to crouch and drop your weapon and grenade.

 

If the aliens are too stupid to pick up weapons with their own guys then they are too stupid to pick up with yours. Also, if you crouch they often just spin your soldier around.

[Shockwave]

I found that just unloading the weapons and not having the clip in your hand works in most case's.

[Zombie]

Well, I'm pretty sure the aliens know how to reload human weapons. The only thing it could do is eat up some Time Units which would probably lower the number of shots the human-turned-alien could fire off in it's turn. But if you initially have the time, it's better to drop the weapon... just in case the soldier recovers and is able to shoot an alien.

 

- Zombie

[[NKF]]

I hate to think what you'd have to do to keep grenadiers in check during a psionic battle. The whole drop/pickup process would ground them for pretty much the entire battle.

 

Well I suppose everyone else could fly, as the AI is not concerned by such petty things as enemy mob elevation when it comes to grenade attacks.

 

Hmm, had a sudden thought cross my mind that I don't know the answer to. Do aliens use X-Com grenades? I know they're familiar enough to use X-Com weapons, but I don't think I've ever had the occasion to see them use one of my proximity grenades before.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

I'm pretty sure the aliens can figure out how to prime a human grenade and toss it. The Proxy is different though. They appear to ignore it, probably because it doesn't offer immediate results. At least I think that's how it went from my tests ages ago.

 

The drop/pickup thing doesn't work at all with soldiers who are dedicated grenadiers. You can't prime any grenades and hope to use them in subsequent rounds (well, if you prime them to go off a few rounds ahead and at the start of the aliens turn it might be ok). Still, even a tiny slip could have disastrous results. If one of your soldiers constantly fall under alien control, it's best to not even equip him/her with grenades in the first place. In fact, don't even bother equipping them with anything. If the soldier goes under Mind Control, he is a danger to your whole squad as he can still shoot. If a soldier panics due to an alien MC attack, he could still shoot or drop things to the ground. This excludes psi-weak soldiers from being ammo mules too since they might run away with your reloads. Not good.

 

- Zombie

[[stewart]]

now there's an interesting question

 

prime grenade to go off after a few turns

drop grenade

hit end of turn

next turn pick up grenade

wait enought turns

 

 

what happens?

[Admiral Harkov]

From a stand point of realism, one could say, since they're psionic and sort of work on mind control, they would be detecting strange thoughts that aren't theirs and then locate where those thoughts come from.

 

Then again neither are aliens psionics nor it sounds for what I've read that all sectoids are psionic?. And ethereals?.

 

One thought that has recently arisen is that perhaps mind controled humans perhaps don't use the left hand weapon, but I've not done any serious test of that hypothesis. Should be wrong.

[Zombie]

now there's an interesting question

 

prime grenade to go off after a few turns

drop grenade

hit end of turn

next turn pick up grenade

wait enough turns

 

what happens?

The grenade will continue to tick down but as long as you are holding it it doesn't go off.

 

 

From a stand point of realism, one could say, since they're psionic and sort of work on mind control, they would be detecting strange thoughts that aren't theirs and then locate where those thoughts come from.

 

Then again neither are aliens psionics nor it sounds for what I've read that all sectoids are psionic?. And ethereals?.

 

One thought that has recently arisen is that perhaps mind controled humans perhaps don't use the left hand weapon, but I've not done any serious test of that hypothesis. Should be wrong.

Only Sectoid Leaders and Commanders are psionic. All Ethereals are psionic too.

 

I haven't tested handedness too close in my trials but I'm fairly sure alien controlled units can use that equipment just fine no matter where it resides. Of course a little more testing couldn't hurt.

 

- Zombie

[Mad Cas]

I've found this too, and I'm sure they don't even need to spot one of your troop units, it an even just be a tank. I've had occasions where all my units have been well out of the way (in an access lift at start of assaulting an alien base or in the back of the skyranger in the corner of a map) and they have still had a bash at MC'ing or demoralising (and sometimes succeeded) It almost feels like they can guestimate where you are (not hard) and attack a square that they think yor unit will be in (like playing 'battleships' or something )

 

It totally stuffed my plan of sending out only my own tanks (which the aliens don't ever seem to attempt to MC, luckily) at the start then using the squad to mop up.

 

Cheating little buggers!

 

On a side note, reading and comparing stuff like this is exactly what I signed up for, and also gaining an insight into how the game works 'underneath' (even though my programming/coding knowledge is minimal)

Edited October 21, 2008 by Mad Cas

[Morken]

In my Graphic Novel game (you know, the one that will be a major motion picture one day) Harry's guys have just completed a successful base attack against an Ethereal base.

 

The Ethereals did not "see" the Xcom soldiers until turn 12, and it was turn 12 that the PSI attacks began.

 

During the other 11 turns, not every single alien was MC'ed.

 

Seems to me the aliens need to see you but sometimes there are "cracks" in walls and sometimes there are not.

[Zombie]

Oh, the Ethereals know the locations (and stats) of all your troops right from the start of the mission. It's just that they give you a short (and variable) grace period until they start these attacks.

 

- Zombie

[[NKF]]

For the grace period, it has been confirmed that there's a value of 20 hard coded in the game related to the AI's ability to use psi.

 

One thing I'm wondering though is whether how this value of 20 is interpreted. Is it in real turns, or in game turns?

 

I'm just making up the terminology here, so when I say a game turn, I'm referring to the number that the game reports whenever we end the turn. A real turn is twice that value and increments every time each side ends their turn and lets the next side make its turn. This is also the turn counter that the grenades timers work off.

 

If we go by the real number of turns that have elapsed, that means the grace period is only 10 game turns.

 

If we go one step further and assume this is modified by a random amount (say +/- 50%), that leaves us with 5 - 15 possible turns where no psi will occur. Since the value randomisation is a major theme throughout this game, it's a fair bet this is being done here too.

 

I'm not sure if this is what's happening, but 5 - 15 turns seems to match up with the experiences I've had with ethereals and their psi usage. 5 - 15 does sound a bit more plausible than 10 - 30 turns without any psi if we go by 20 game turn interpretation.

 

One trigger that immediately overrides any others is if there are 2 or less aliens remaining on the map. So watch out when visiting Ethereal small scouts!

 

I have a feeling that your defense levels also may have a role to play. Psi seems to come really quickly if you've got some very weak units on your team, but a little slower if you've mainly got average to strong units. They must run an assessment on all the units in by their position and defences - relative to their own attack ability, and then do a coin toss to see if the attack might be worth attempting.

 

- NKF

Edited January 13, 2009 by NKF

[uncy]

For the grace period, it has been confirmed that there's a value of 20 hard coded in the game related to the AI's ability to use psi.

 

One thing I'm wondering though is whether how this value of 20 is interpreted. Is it in real turns, or in game turns?

 

I'm just making up the terminology here, so when I say a game turn, I'm referring to the number that the game reports whenever we end the turn. A real turn is twice that value and increments every time each side ends their turn and lets the next side make its turn. This is also the turn counter that the grenades timers work off.

 

If we go by the real number of turns that have elapsed, that means the grace period is only 10 game turns.

 

If we go one step further and assume this is modified by a random amount (say +/- 50%), that leaves us with 5 - 15 possible turns where no psi will occur. Since the value randomisation is a major theme throughout this game, it's a fair bet this is being done here too.

 

I'm not sure if this is what's happening, but 5 - 15 turns seems to match up with the experiences I've had with ethereals and their psi usage. 5 - 15 does sound a bit more plausible than 10 - 30 turns without any psi if we go by 20 game turn interpretation.

 

One trigger that immediately overrides any others is if there are 2 or less aliens remaining on the map. So watch out when visiting Ethereal small scouts!

 

I have a feeling that your defense levels also may have a role to play. Psi seems to come really quickly if you've got some very weak units on your team, but a little slower if you've mainly got average to strong units. They must run an assessment on all the units in by their position and defences - relative to their own attack ability, and then do a coin toss to see if the attack might be worth attempting.

 

- NKF

 

Whenever I read this kind of reasoning about X-Com mechanics I so wish we could have access to the original code... What I am also saying is that it is amazing how you guys revert these formulas to get the core values.

 

Damn I want the code! hehe

[Admiral Harkov]

Had a painful discovery: when mind controlled the soldiers regain full TU for the alien turn.

[[stewart]]

For the grace period, it has been confirmed that there's a value of 20 hard coded in the game related to the AI's ability to use psi.

 

One thing I'm wondering though is whether how this value of 20 is interpreted. Is it in real turns, or in game turns?

 

I'm just making up the terminology here, so when I say a game turn, I'm referring to the number that the game reports whenever we end the turn. A real turn is twice that value and increments every time each side ends their turn and lets the next side make its turn. This is also the turn counter that the grenades timers work off.

 

If we go by the real number of turns that have elapsed, that means the grace period is only 10 game turns.

 

If we go one step further and assume this is modified by a random amount (say +/- 50%), that leaves us with 5 - 15 possible turns where no psi will occur. Since the value randomisation is a major theme throughout this game, it's a fair bet this is being done here too.

 

I'm not sure if this is what's happening, but 5 - 15 turns seems to match up with the experiences I've had with ethereals and their psi usage. 5 - 15 does sound a bit more plausible than 10 - 30 turns without any psi if we go by 20 game turn interpretation.

 

One trigger that immediately overrides any others is if there are 2 or less aliens remaining on the map. So watch out when visiting Ethereal small scouts!

 

I have a feeling that your defense levels also may have a role to play. Psi seems to come really quickly if you've got some very weak units on your team, but a little slower if you've mainly got average to strong units. They must run an assessment on all the units in by their position and defences - relative to their own attack ability, and then do a coin toss to see if the attack might be worth attempting.

 

- NKF

 

Bare in mind that whether game or real turns, since aliens go second you must add 1 to that count since they cannot do psi attacks when you "have the ball" as it were.

[Zombie]

For the grace period, it has been confirmed that there's a value of 20 hard coded in the game related to the AI's ability to use psi.

Well... yes and no. The game basically re-reveals the stats and locations of all your troops at turn 20 (or when only two aliens remain on the map, whichever comes first). It's up to the aliens what they do with the information after this. If there are psi-aliens left, there is a high probability that they will use this form of attack after turn 20. So this is where the randomization comes in: if you kill all the lower ranking aliens in say, 8 turns and only have 2 aliens left, the game will automatically reveal the locations and stats of your troops at turn 9. Hope this makes sense.

 

- Zombie

[uncy]

For the grace period, it has been confirmed that there's a value of 20 hard coded in the game related to the AI's ability to use psi.

Well... yes and no. The game basically re-reveals the stats and locations of all your troops at turn 20 (or when only two aliens remain on the map, whichever comes first). It's up to the aliens what they do with the information after this. If there are psi-aliens left, there is a high probability that they will use this form of attack after turn 20. So this is where the randomization comes in: if you kill all the lower ranking aliens in say, 8 turns and only have 2 aliens left, the game will automatically reveal the locations and stats of your troops at turn 9. Hope this makes sense.

 

- Zombie

 

How in the world do you know about that Zombie? You didn't find the offset, did you?

 

Could this be the reason why the last 2 aliens tend to hide themselves? since they know where your units are?

[[NKF]]

Seb76 found the bit of code the deals with it. The net effect is roughly the same. I'm not good at remembering minute details though.

 

The last two aliens don't quite hide - they just amble about like they normally would. They will however be using most of their TUs on psi attacks if there are any likely targets out there, which means they won't be moving about as much.

 

By the way, a lot of what we generally do is guesswork, with some number gathering involved to verify them. We have been able to confirm or correct our findings with some code digs, then we work off that to try and piece together other aspects of the game via educated guesses. But certainly access to the code would be so much better!

 

- NKF

Edited January 16, 2009 by NKF

[[stewart]]

For the grace period, it has been confirmed that there's a value of 20 hard coded in the game related to the AI's ability to use psi.

Well... yes and no. The game basically re-reveals the stats and locations of all your troops at turn 20 (or when only two aliens remain on the map, whichever comes first). It's up to the aliens what they do with the information after this. If there are psi-aliens left, there is a high probability that they will use this form of attack after turn 20. So this is where the randomization comes in: if you kill all the lower ranking aliens in say, 8 turns and only have 2 aliens left, the game will automatically reveal the locations and stats of your troops at turn 9. Hope this makes sense.

 

- Zombie

 

Wait 20 turns before it KNOWS your information? From a programming pont of view that's silly. It can access the information anytime if its told to by the programmer. More likely it is 20 turns before it allows itself to perform some kind of action. It doesnt need to know any personal stats if all it really is concerned with is your location. If it's gonna read your stats its got to be for a reason. Does it tend to pick on your weakest to psi attack soldiers?

[Zombie]

Here's what happens: at the beginning of a mission (turn 0), the aliens know the stats and locations of all your troops. (I just tested this again to be sure: edited 10 Sectoid Leaders and 10 Commanders to be on a Large Scout, then edited my soldiers to have 10 Bravery and 0 for Psi Strength and Psi Skill. On the aliens first turn, half my troops were under control by them). The aliens have an intelligence stat which allows them to remember the stats and locations of your troops, and the higher the number the longer they remember. For aliens, that number is between 2 and 8 (which translates to a 2-8 round memory). After that time period is up and the alien doesn't see any of your units, it's memory is wiped clean and is basically blind and has to search for more targets.

 

This changes when one of the aforementioned conditions happens. If you kill all the aliens except for two (or one, it doesn't matter) then the aliens are granted the omnipotent power to see the stats and locations of your troops again (hence why I said "re-reveal" in my previous post). :wink1: Or, if it hits turn 20 and there are still aliens left on the map, they get a free look around. In either case, the aliens use their intelligence stat yet again to remember what was shown to them. After this time period is up, the aliens will be totally blind because there are no more "free-looks" coded into the executable. So if you can last this long and remain hidden, the remaining aliens are going to have to search for you which may take a while.

 

That's what I believe happens. It needs to be tested though, so if I get some time tonight or this weekend I'll do a little more editing.

 

- Zombie

[[stewart]]

This exceed 20 turn business might be doable in a base invasion. You can stop drop and kneal upstairs and possibly last 20 turns.

[Zombie]

Unless of course the aliens decide to shoot up some of your base modules in the meantime which immediately crashes the game in the CE version.

 

- Zombie

[[NKF]]

Not exactly related to psi, but I recall a while back a mission where I'd sent my specialist Lightning with its grenadier crew to a Floater battleship. It wasn't a large crew, but with over 60 grenades I can't remember how many turns I spent priming all those grenades... well past 20 at least. By the time I took a step outside, almost the entire floater crew had congregated around the Lightning. A quick mop up and a short trip around the map for stragglers, and it was all over. Rather a let down.

 

I later broke out of the habit of priming all my grenades.

 

The lightning already has gaps and cracks in it that allow the aliens to see into it, but if the AI got a glimpse of everyone in the ship by turn 20 (or whatever it's meant to be), then that must've triggered the exodus from the Battleship to the surroundings around the Lightning. Was rather surprised the cheap shots fired through the gaps weren't that frequent, and the ones that did occur were blocked. The gaps must've allow them to keep spotting the soldiers to keep their memory fresh.

 

- NKF

[Zombie]

Have you tried BB's and my Lightning Fix over in the StrategyCore files section? All those cracks and gaps are filled in which doesn't allow free looks inside (or outside) your craft. Though, at turn 20 the aliens are going to know where you are anyway. Then again, the aliens can't seem to follow any nodes which go up the steps of the Lightning for some reason, so they aren't going to be peeking inside to see what's going on. Don't know why that happens, so I should really look at the nodes again.

 

- Zombie

[[NKF]]

Might give it a spin some time. Far enough into my pistol-mod test campaign to be able to research it.

 

In the original design, weren't the aliens able to waltz through the main hatch? Assuming it's not blocked by a soldier.

 

- NKF

[[stewart]]

... well past 20 at least. By the time I took a step outside, almost the entire floater crew had congregated around the Lightning.

 

 

Reminds me of a mission I was playing years ago. It went badly and I had a guy with some kind of direct fire weapon knealing at the very back of the skyranger. I was facing sectoids. My plan was to wait them out and pot them as they climbed the ramp. Well after a long time none of them did. After many turns they had formed a semi-circle some squares beyond the ramp; just waiting for me; b@stards.

[Zombie]

In the original design, weren't the aliens able to waltz through the main hatch? Assuming it's not blocked by a soldier.

Sure, they could go through the door if they really wanted to, but they never did for some reason. At least, I never had aliens running up the ramp of my Lightning. And I used the Lightning a lot in my heyday for training soldiers on the PSX version. The aliens seem just as perplexed with the Lightning on the CE version so whatever is happening it's not version-specific. For my fix, I didn't even touch the spawn points or pathfinding nodes for the Lightning - everything is stock in that respect. Though like stewart mentioned, I don't recall aliens coming up the ramp of any craft, not just the Lightning.

 

Edit: I just looked at the nodes for the X-COM craft and they all appear to be in order. So maybe it has something to do with the AI that the aliens don't go into craft. Stewart, I'm attaching a pic of all the pathfinding nodes on L0 for the Skyranger just for reference. It sure looks like a semi-circle of aliens on either side of the craft is possible especially if the two nodes on either side are occupied by aliens.

 

 

- Zombie

Edited January 21, 2009 by Zombie

[uncy]

In the original design, weren't the aliens able to waltz through the main hatch? Assuming it's not blocked by a soldier.

Sure, they could go through the door if they really wanted to, but they never did for some reason. At least, I never had aliens running up the ramp of my Lightning. And I used the Lightning a lot in my heyday for training soldiers on the PSX version. The aliens seem just as perplexed with the Lightning on the CE version so whatever is happening it's not version-specific. For my fix, I didn't even touch the spawn points or pathfinding nodes for the Lightning - everything is stock in that respect. Though like stewart mentioned, I don't recall aliens coming up the ramp of any craft, not just the Lightning.

 

Edit: I just looked at the nodes for the X-COM craft and they all appear to be in order. So maybe it has something to do with the AI that the aliens don't go into craft. Stewart, I'm attaching a pic of all the pathfinding nodes on L0 for the Skyranger just for reference. It sure looks like a semi-circle of aliens on either side of the craft is possible especially if the two nodes on either side are occupied by aliens.

 

 

- Zombie

 

Are you sure those are de nodes that are afterwards transcripted into de "temporary Map"? I don't see any nodes from the first floor connecting to the second floor. I have managed to make aliens get out of a XCom craft changing the node flags when spawn there, one for each. But I've never tried to make 'em come into my plane.

[Zombie]

The node directly in front of the landing ramp on L0 connects to another node inside the 'ranger on L1 that's tight on top of the equipment pile. The illustration I provided in my previous post was created by partially using MapView: took a screen cap of the Skyranger on L0, blew that up a little and colored in the nodes using the locations in MapView. That's why you don't see any node connector lines. All the nodes on X-COM ships are non-spawn in nature, meaning they are used only for alien pathfinding.

 

- Zombie