120 replies to this topic

[guyver6]

Hi,

I've got a request for you all: to make a nice skybox that can be used as a background for Globe. Here's a task: #49.

Be quick, becouse it's important for alpha release.

Greetings,
Guyver

PS. If you don't know what's skybox then google it, can be found on map-makers sites (maps for FPPs and alike).

[red knight]

There was one packaged on the 0.0.4 release, take a look if it works for now.

Greetings
Red Knight

[Micah]

Here's the old one. We don't have to use it, but if it works, we can. For your convenience :

Attached Files

•  xenocide_geoscape_background.png   353.23K   78 downloads

[guyver6]

But this is just plain background, and I need skybox (6 background images). Or do this background connected together give nice stich-less skybox?

Guyver

EDIT: Ok, I see that it can be used as skybox, but I thought of something... more sophisticated . I'll use this one for now until new one arrives.

EDIT2: I tested it... the old one REALLY needs replacement, believe me

Edited by guyver6, 15 December 2004 - 07:47 PM.

[Micah]

Alright, thanks for trying

[JakeDrake]

You are talking about a skybox with 6 different sides that correspond to the actual astronomical views one would see from that angle so that it actually looks realistic, right? I haven't seen it but that one image repeated and wrapped around the view seems like it would look rather boring, which is probably why you want to change it.

I'll take a look through some astronomy and starchart websites and see if I can find anything useful or even information that could guide an artist to easily create the needed images.

Edited by JakeDrake, 15 December 2004 - 11:26 PM.

[x0563511]

You are talking about a skybox with 6 different sides that correspond to the actual astronomical views one would see from that angle so that it actually looks realistic, right?  I haven't seen it but that one image repeated and wrapped around the view seems like it would look rather boring, which is probably why you want to change it.

I'll take a look through some astronomy and starchart websites and see if I can find anything useful or even information that could guide an artist to easily create the needed images.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be crazy! you could even get the starfield to rotate based on the time of year!

[guyver6]

That would be crazy! you could even get the starfield to rotate based on the time of year!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not so crazy, you can actually rotate skybox in Ogre .

@JakeDrake: Besides references you could find some tutorials on how to do skybox and post it here, to ease artists work.

Guyver

[mikker]

I'm not sure this is a good idea - people might get motion sickness by havning the ENTIRE screen rotate. Just leave the stars alone - It's not that ugly.

[kafros]

I'm not sure this is a good idea - people might get motion sickness by havning the ENTIRE screen rotate. Just leave the stars alone - It's not that ugly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Set it in the video options! Pick and choose! Those who don't like it, won't use it ;D

[Vaaish]

Don't the rotate commands just rotate the globe itself or do they rotate the camera around the globe?

if they do the former then there is no need for this, the latter then all we need is a projection of the celestial sphere into the skybox with maybe a few of the more recognizable constellations in there.

as for cool little things like the stars moving with time and stuff like this, lets not loose focus here we are not making a scientific starfield simulation. I beleive this kind of thing will just add to the burden programming has for no reason. Maybe once the game is finsihed we can talk about adding tweaks like this but right now I'd just be happy to have a working planetview.

[guyver6]

Vaaish is right, I just wanted skybox to put into background of Globe, just to make it looking good. I won't implement rotating skybox now becouse it would get things complicated and I really like to keep things as simple as they can be (it's easier to extend simple thing than to refactor complicated). I'm aiming at Alpha 6 with that skybox.

Btw, the Globe will stay static in the middle of the scene, just the sunlight and camera will orbit around globe. So having nice skybox in background of globe will give it more 3D feeling than having static texture.

Guyver

[JakeDrake]

Well I'll still take a look at some starchart resources when I get some time and post it here. Then you can move it to the Labs if you want or maybe active Art.

Edited by JakeDrake, 16 December 2004 - 02:46 PM.

[JakeDrake]

Ok I'm posting this in the bug tracker as well:

I found some really great resources of generating starcharts from any time, date, and position you want.

The simplest of these is a java (i think) program here:
http://www.fourmilab.ch/yoursky/

More complicated and powerful programs can be found at:
http://www.stargazing.net/astropc/
and
http://starchart.sourceforge.net/

And if none of those fit the bill here is a resource of some other links to similar programs: http://freeware.intr...planetarium.htm

Though some I saw were trying to charge you, all of these are free!

I hope an artist will be able to use these programs to generate a realistic model for each of the 6 sides needed and then reproduce them in a simpler and more attractive way.

Hope someone runs with this, it could look pretty cool

[Vaaish]

Thanks, I'll take a look and see how it works.

[mikker]

I've made an inverted sphere as envorioment. Heres a movie with it, stars moving and all. It's all still with no movement (this would be about 1 hour), and you can clearly see what i mean by motion sickness. AND THIS IS WITHOUT MOTION AT ALL.

Grrrrrr, stupid thing won't upload. It ruins the movie when i try to upload it.

Edited by mikker, 21 December 2004 - 06:19 PM.

[guyver6]

Maybe I'll just compile current code for you and upload it somewhere, to show you how skybox really looks cool and doesn't give any sickness. This is I think that the background is really not much visible, becouse globe fills first plan, and the skybox is really cool looking... IMHO of course.

Guyver

[mikker]

123123

nope, doesn't upload. Anyone know of a nice upload site?

Edited by mikker, 22 December 2004 - 06:33 AM.

[red knight]

The local FTP on Xenocide ask mindstormmaster how to get it. BTW, you should take a look how it works in realtime, a movie is no substitute for the real thing.

Greetings
Red Knight

[mikker]

i've added the stars rotating. Look:

HERE

[tzuchan]

Maaaaaaaaaaybe a little too stary...
Other than that, it looks great

[guyver6]

http://www.ap3d.com/betterspace/
http://skymatter.the...com/?f=tutorial
http://www.gamasutra...023/bell_01.htm

This links may be useful. Either for creating background or a skybox.

As to skybox it's the quality of it that makes or makes not the sickness . But that way or another having skybox and rejecting it becouse of unpleasant feelings while looking at globe is the choice we don't have when rejecting the idea before seeing it in action.

Guyver

EDIT: more links

Edited by guyver6, 24 December 2004 - 03:07 AM.

[mikker]

i though it was because of the movement.

[Vaaish]

GJ Mikker, I like how that skybox is looking

[guyver6]

i though it was because of the movement. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GJ Mikker, I like how that skybox is looking

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh dear!!! I didn't mean that the skybox isn't good. I haven't seen it becouse can't play the movie (and I can't tell why, what codec is this?). I just wanted to convince you that skybox looks better than static background. Could you make a skybox from what's on movie to let me see it? And again sorry, I didn't mean the quality of what's on movie

Guyver

[mikker]

sure, i made a texture. It's quite big.

Attached Files

•  sky.jpg   254.72K   46 downloads

Edited by mikker, 24 December 2004 - 07:45 PM.

[Qonfused]

a high denesty of stars, maybe to mutch. nice though.

[guyver6]

First of all too many stars. Second: no nebulas, colors, etc., pure black and white looks not that interesting. Third: one texture, we need six (6) textures to make a skybox. Check out the gamasutra link I posted above.

All those make up not so interesting background when applied behind globe (I tested in with Xenocide). Anyway if come up with nice background (not skybox), then I'll set that background not the skybox. Either way the current one is too low-res.

Guyver

[Qonfused]

Dont know how they did it, but the best skybox i have ever seen was the one used in homeworld. maybe you should check it out.

[Vaaish]

I don't think we should put nebula in the skybox, it isn't realistic as to near earth orbit nor does it fall in line with a computer generated projection model we are using for earth itself.

if anything I think we should pull out about 1/2 those stars and add in the moon and sun(might need to be an object inside the box) to add in color and variety.

[guyver6]

@Vaaish: I've implemented that projection becouse I want Earth to look pretty. It won't look that pretty with simple spherical projection applied, it will have disorted poles, then we can't use big texture, and texturing using spherical projection you have to have one texture (well, you can have more than that but it's not looking any good, the texels get more disorted the closer of pole their lie). That's why I'm implementing Fuller's idea.
And yes, this will couse that Earth will be very realistic. But it's a game, good look is more than realism here, and nice nebula makes it look better. If I want to see Earth with realistic neighbourhood then I run Celestia. If I want to fight aliens, then I run Xenocide. You know

Now my proposition is to end that discussion and make that damn nice looking background, is it skybox or plane behind globe. I proposed skybox, mikker says that it makes him sick. Now I say just "do it" (Starsky rulez ). Ok?

Btw sun, it's possible and I'll think of how to do it after globe.

Guyver

[mikker]

rather then put the sun on the texture, in the movie i made the sun a glow. Looks much better.

[guyver6]

I'll do the sun as a billboard (textured plane which normal always point toward camera), and maybe lens flares... First I just have to finish globe. Hope that happen this night.

Guyver

[Vaaish]

@guyver. I'm not sure what your first paragraph had to do with my comment. IIRC I was only refering to the skybox not the actual globe.

As for the skybox, all i'm saying is that we don't necessarily need a nebula to make it look pretty. Adding in the sun and moon and maybe using a deeper blue/black instead of solid black and adding some variation to the star colors to represent the various sizes and colors of the stars can also be effective and keep things more realistic. My belief is that we need to keep the skybox more subtle so that the players attention is focused on the globe.

[red knight]

I concur absolutly with what Guyver said, if I want to see the local airspace there are pretty good simulators out there. In games almost every time you do concessions about the accuracy of the simulation for aesthetical reasons. This is a justified one.

If not ask HL2 guys, if they would just have a physical simulation done just for the sake of accuracy they would have been wasting time, they gave a very important twist adding puzzles that use the simulation and breaking things. Ask Microprose guys why they have done the first XCOM background such amazingly unrealistic. Someone said, it wasnt the real thing, NO, that is because it is really pretty.

I hope I make the point clear, realistic is not always real .. In that I have to praise the CTD work, even if they managed to make things look realistic they do not conform to reality (at all). This is an example of the very same principle. We want stars because that gives a sense of realistic but we want things that make the background pretty to be looked at, not just a boring black and white starfield.

Greetings
Red Knight

[Qonfused]

I know its complicated, but it would be cool to recognise positions of important stars, and star signs.

[red knight]

@guyver. I'm not sure what your first paragraph had to do with my comment. IIRC I was only refering to the skybox not the actual globe.

As for the skybox, all i'm saying is that we don't necessarily need a nebula to make it look pretty. Adding in the sun and moon and maybe using a deeper blue/black instead of solid black and adding some variation to the star colors to represent the various sizes and colors of the stars can also be effective and keep things more realistic. My belief is that we need to keep the skybox more subtle so that the players attention is focused on the globe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Vaaish: Adding the sun isnt really more subtle, as the direct lighting on the camera would cause blindness ("lense flares and stuff like that"), add to that that most of the time we would use the 24 hours a second timeframe and the twinkling that would add wouldnt be pleasant at all. The point is make the background pretty, while not focussing the players attention in it, however if the player looks at it he can appreciate it. Almost nobody would see interesting stars (maybe a couple of guys) out there, for the simple reason that most of the space is behind the globe (80% of the screen).. So adding real positions and that stuff is just a waste of very limited resources. If after that someone would really need to do it (instead of help in another thing), so be it. However, he will have to compete to a pretty skybox. Real backround is completly out of scope.

EDIT: Furthermore I even speculated to add planet atmospheric scattering (that looks awesome), however, I desisted because that would distract anyone out of the purpose of the interface in the game.

Greetings
Red Knight

Edited by red knight, 25 December 2004 - 06:36 PM.

[mikker]

ok, i've toned down the star light a little. This might give it a better effect.

also, i've added the .max file of the system. The rotations is faked (the suns not in the middle, you know.) but should work for demonstration.

Attached Files

•  sky2.jpg   205.6K   43 downloads

Edited by mikker, 26 December 2004 - 11:28 AM.

[mikker]

okay: 3rd skybox.

I've removed the big stars, they simply looked wrong

also: quite less stars.

Attached Files

•  sky3.jpg   187.67K   34 downloads

[guyver6]

Have you checked skybox tutorial I've posted above? (That on gamasutra) Cuz that texture looks ok except skybox needs 6 of them (box has 6 sides). Another question is: where are nebulas?

Guyver

EDIT: small quote from gamasutra:

Your existing 3D modeling software is a great source of skyboxes. You can use weather, mountain, or star-field generation plugins to create most of the scenery, along with the modeling and texturing tools with which you are already familiar.

To create a skybox, render six images of the scene from a single point in space. Set the camera to create square images with a vertical and horizontal field-of-view of 90°. Then render six views, each 90° apart: forward, left, back, right, up and down.

The resulting images should fit together seamlessly when placed next to each other in Photoshop or viewed with the game engine. If they don't, you might be able to swap and rotate some of the six images to get the arrangement required by your game engine, or you might have to change the camera parameters and re-render.

Edited by guyver6, 30 December 2004 - 09:44 AM.

[mikker]

i know what a skybox are

if you need it to rotate with the camera, put it on an inverted sphere instead. With the same texture, no problem with that.

as for nebulas.... nah.

1) Too much work.

2) Can you see nebulas from earth? Nope.

[red knight]

Mikker, WE NEED the cubemap... I know you know what a skybox is, the what we need is the skymap in a cubemap kind of thing not an Sky Sphere . And what Guyver posted was the procedure to create it.

Greetings
Red Knight

Edited by red knight, 30 December 2004 - 01:47 PM.

[Vaaish]

or we could cheat and use his image as a base just rotate the image 90 degrees and flip it a few times to add variety.

then it's just a matter of taking it into PS and add a subtle nebula to it more akin to a ion trail or the arurora to add variety but still keep it toned down.

[mikker]

just do the same pic, it should tile seamless, or near seamless.

as for nebula.... well...

[Denevive]

I figured that I'd add my two cents about this issue. What I'm about to propose may not be a Version 1.0 issue, but I thought I'd say it anyway. On one of the skybox sides, we should make a brighter "star", Mars. Mars, venus, saturn and the other planets look like brighter stars when viewed from earth. As an amateur astronomer, trust me I know. I can't tell you how many times I've had to point out to someone that the star they are commmenting on is Venus or Mars. We could even do a sequence when the player launches their "Cydonia or Bust" mission where the camera zooms in on that "star" in the background and it resolves into mars' red surface. I know that we already have some great CG for the endgame sequence, I'm just suggesting rotating the skybox when the player launches the mission and doing a small zoom before cutting to the CG. Even without the "Cydonia or Bust" zoom graphic idea, I still think that there should be a couple of slightly brighter "stars" to represent the planets.

And hey, what about recognizable constellations? I mean, if wer're going to do a skybox, why not do it right? Once again, I know this might not be a Ver 1.0 issue, but I thought I would mention it anyway.

[Shinzon]

that might be a good idea but dear god what kind of high resolution does the texture of the sky box then be O.o;; well ive made my sky box and i think i went overboard with the shiny nebulas

does anyone still the 512*512 6 images of the skybox?

If we are going to make a realistic starfield... it will be complicated wraping the proper stars in the right positions...

Attached Files

•  Skybox2.jpg   48.64K   53 downloads

Edited by Shinzon, 30 December 2004 - 04:59 PM.

[guyver6]

That looks great At last some nebuleas.

Anyway, yeah, nebuleas are to bright.

As to the resolution make it 1024x1024, it's easier to scale it down than to enlarge. We won't loose detail.

And don't you ever even try to make it look like the real space around earth. We're making a game, not a simulator.

Guyver

Edited by guyver6, 30 December 2004 - 05:11 PM.

[Shinzon]

I took mikker's texture and added a nebula... since mine are too shiny and lack a good starfield...

Attached Files

•  sky3.jpg   603.82K   50 downloads

[mikker]

I'm ageanst nebulas, but shinzon, that just look MARVELOUS.