Jump to content


Photo

Problem With The Research Tree


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 -Sky_Lord-

-Sky_Lord-

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 09:44 AM

Hey,
That problem was also in x-com, and unless something is changed, it will happen here as well.

What brought me to write about it is this topic:
Alien Origins
What happened to me several times in x-com, was that the first alien i've captured alive was an alien leader (taken from a base for exmple).
After "researching him" i got the Alien Origins entry saying that the alien didn't knew much and we need a leader...

You can see how dumb it is...
So i think this entry shouldn't be part of the tree, it should be an independet entry that can be researched but can also be skipped (and if skipped then it cannot be researched, meaning that if u research a leader and then a normal alien then you wont get this entry).

OR

If u research a leader first you get both this and the next research at the same time.

EDIT -
Take a look at this quote:

We have not been able to get any special important information from this alien. A alien higher in the hierarchy would be able to tell us more important information.

Think how dumb it would look if you research a leader...

Edited by -Sky_Lord-, 12 August 2005 - 09:45 AM.


#2 Blehm 98

Blehm 98

    Colonel

  • [Global Moderators]
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,626 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 09:49 AM

please post in the proper forum, this needs to go under a Labs forum, dunno which one, i don't mod in here anymore so i can't do anything :Cry:
Top Secret Xenocide Status report

BF2 Hackers =5SF= have busted
]sD[ Engageo <-- couldn't get him banned though, no screenshot of him ingame
]sD[Nomisser
an AK guy
The anti-logarithm of the logarithm of X plus the logarithm of Y equals X times Y, or 10^(logX + logY) = XY
Posted Image
I hate spider solitaire...

#3 Guest_Azrael_*

Guest_Azrael_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 August 2005 - 10:50 AM

Take a look at this quote:

We have not been able to get any special important information from this alien. A alien higher in the hierarchy would be able to tell us more important information.

Think how dumb it would look if you research a leader...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scrolling down will take you to the latest version of the text :hammer:

#4 -Sky_Lord-

-Sky_Lord-

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11 posts

Posted 12 August 2005 - 06:33 PM

Take a look at this quote:

We have not been able to get any special important information from this alien. A alien higher in the hierarchy would be able to tell us more important information.

Think how dumb it would look if you research a leader...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scrolling down will take you to the latest version of the text :hammer:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well when i wrote it it wasn't there already...
Doesn't matter, the issue still stands...
In order to get more info you need to research a leader because the "soliders" dont know much...
but if you research a leader in the first place...

And about where i posted... i would have posted in that topic if ihad access there, and i have no idea where else to post it...

#5 Guest_Azrael_*

Guest_Azrael_*
  • Guests

Posted 12 August 2005 - 07:10 PM

If you wish to make comments on current texts, you'll be more than welcome to apply to be a Project Recruit, I don't read these forums much and you most likely won't get a response. The current text holds no incoherency in the case you capture a Leader first, if I'm not mistaken.

#6 -Sky_Lord-

-Sky_Lord-

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11 posts

Posted 13 August 2005 - 03:42 AM

...
read my last post again...
Forget the text, it doesn't matter, the problem is with the tree...

Currently it's:
[Research any alien for this entry] >>> [Research an alien leader for the next one]

it's simply dumb that if you capture a leader at the first place you'll still need to find another one

p.s.
I would have joined the programming department a long time ago if i wasn't at the army, coming home every 2nd-3rd week

Edited by -Sky_Lord-, 13 August 2005 - 07:39 AM.


#7 Guest_Azrael_*

Guest_Azrael_*
  • Guests

Posted 13 August 2005 - 08:40 AM

I see. Well, actually, there is no incoherency in the tree either, remember the Overmind has all the Aliens under control, and if you read my text, the Alien under interrogation suffers from convulsions when he tries to speak a word, eventually they manage to get the information out of it, but since we haven't made a decision on it yet, we have two ways to go in Xenocide: 1) The Alien (be it a soldier, leader or whatever) dies after interrogation, result of the Humans lack of expertise at interrogating mind-controlled Aliens, resulting in them suffering from the strain of their psionic leashes. This wouldn't be incoherent or ridiculous, it'd be actually pretty logic. 2) The Alien doesn't die and you get to research The Martian Solution after you research Alien Origins.
In the original game, I recall having captured a Grey Leader on my first terror mission, and I think I could research Alien Origins and Martian Solution shortly afterwards, so I believe that's the way we're going to go.

#8 -Sky_Lord-

-Sky_Lord-

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11 posts

Posted 13 August 2005 - 09:47 AM

both solutions would be great, we just need to make sure we take that into account..
and i can promise you that in the original x-com (gold edition) it wasn't like you said...
about 2 weeks ago i played it, raided an alien base, got a leader, researched him and only got the alien origins...

#9 Guest_Azrael_*

Guest_Azrael_*
  • Guests

Posted 13 August 2005 - 11:22 AM

Then I must be mistaken, don't really remember it, not a huge fan of X-Com 1 (more of Apocalypse). In fact, in the text thread I did ask what happened after researching an alien, so if it died I could mention it in the text, I'll be sure to do it now, it will be changed in the case in Xenocide we make the Alien survive, but for now we're sticking to X-Com 1 as much as possible in these aspects.

#10 -Sky_Lord-

-Sky_Lord-

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 11 posts

Posted 13 August 2005 - 02:14 PM

well, the alien did disappear after you researched him, thu it never mentioned that he died (or anything actully).
It would be safe to write that he dies.

edit -
thu from the technical point of view, you didn't have an extra grey corpse after you research him... so maybe he doesn't die and you keep him as a pet grey or smoething...

Edited by -Sky_Lord-, 13 August 2005 - 02:16 PM.


#11 Blehm 98

Blehm 98

    Colonel

  • [Global Moderators]
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,626 posts

Posted 13 August 2005 - 02:28 PM

You could teach him tricks like Play dead and fetch! :P
Top Secret Xenocide Status report

BF2 Hackers =5SF= have busted
]sD[ Engageo <-- couldn't get him banned though, no screenshot of him ingame
]sD[Nomisser
an AK guy
The anti-logarithm of the logarithm of X plus the logarithm of Y equals X times Y, or 10^(logX + logY) = XY
Posted Image
I hate spider solitaire...

#12 UnFleshed One

UnFleshed One

    Programming Department

  • Xenocide Inactive
  • 304 posts

Posted 15 August 2005 - 10:29 PM

thu from the technical point of view, you didn't have an extra grey corpse after you research him...


In Apocalypse you did. Although there were no greys :)
Darkness is under the candle.

#13 NKF

NKF

    Commander

  • [Global Moderators]
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,798 posts

Posted 16 August 2005 - 03:18 AM

In UFO, to get The Martian Solution, you had to have Alien Origins and an alien leader.

But the question is what if the first alien you researched was an alien leader? Because a leader is also technically a soldier, shouldn't they automatically inherit all the information that is provided by the soldier in addition to the information provided by the extra rank? Shouldn't you get the Martian Solution right away?

Not quite. I'm of the opinion that it's not a real flaw. Your initial interrogation is to determine what questions to ask and who to ask the questions in order to further your investigation in locating the source of the aliens.

If the first alien you interrogate is a leader or commander, and it dies (or just vanishes) in the process from your inexpert probing, you won't get a chance to use your newfound and more direct questions, hence why you need another alien of the same rank. It's frustrating, yes, but you cannot ask it questions in retrospect once it's gone/dead.

Most of the other research branches in the game, like psi and the hyperwave decoder, have few prerequisites, hence why they're easy enough to obtain after the first interrogation of their required rank/race prequisites.

This was never too much of a problem in Apocalypse because Apocalypse aliens didn't distinguish by rank in addition to species like the UFO and TFTD aliens. In Apocalypse, you only needed to catch'em all and complete your set to unlock certain technologies.

--

In the end though, it really depends on how research in Xenocide is going to be modelled. It doesn't have to be identical to UFO, TFTD or Apocalypse, after all. It could be simpler to use but more complex at the same time.

- NKF

edit: Of course, if I hadn't just used speed reading to read the initial post, I would've just said: Don't worry about it.

Edited by NKF, 16 August 2005 - 03:34 AM.

Lord High Generalissimo Ruler Supreme of Norm's Anti Pedant Society (NAPS).

Number of members: 1