Hwp Balance Issues

[jollyrobert]

I'm new to this, but I noticed a buch of talk about whether or not HWPs are/should be better/worse/more or less desirable than your soldiers; and a lot of talk about alternate types of HWPs and whether or not they would affect game balance.

 

However, if you want to make Xcom convincing as is, no type of HWP can get very big - talking mecha, esp. crew-served mecha, one has to remember that these are limited by the ability to fit in a more-or-less VTOL aircraft. In the original version, they fit in the crew compartment and seemed more or less interchangable with crew seats. However, there was a number that I never saw used for the xcom landing craft, which was the number of HWPs they could carry (a skyranger could fit 3!). Just make it so that each craft can carry 0 or 1 HWP as a sling-load (tie it in a special compartment or under the fuselage), and that limits how many HWPs you have.

 

Personally, I think the balance issue is resolved by HWPs limited firepower. In the original, I could fit 4x as many plasma cannons/blasters/psykers/whatevers in a vehicle for the room of each HWP. Since I liked fielding large units (easier to win missions quickly), I definitely liked having 4 times more guns.

 

Finally, instead of relying on HWPs so much, why not some crew-served or towed weapons? Have the guys deploy heavy machine guns, and use suppressive fire vs. those damn sectoids!

[Robo Dojo 58]

Just make it so that each craft can carry 0 or 1 HWP as a sling-load (tie it in a special compartment or under the fuselage)

That may be good for a helicopter, but a helicopter doesn't fly faster than 200MPH. It also isn't trying to hide on radar with a load like that.

 

The XC-11 (starting transport) has a limit to the weight it can handle. Being a VTOL requires massive lift abilities, that modern craft can't handle. It's not designed to carry a full load of people, and an HWP slung on the bottom. It also flies near the speed of sound- having a huge bump on the bottom will bring huge amounts of drag. And, it won't be able to hide on radar, either.

 

Although, I think 3 HWPs is too much for the XC-11. It seems like too big a weight change between a full load of people, and a full load of tanks. I think it should be reduced to 2, so you have a fair ratio of people to HWPs.

 

The XC-33 (best tech)

 

Finally, instead of relying on HWPs so much, why not some crew-served or towed weapons? Have the guys deploy heavy machine guns, and use suppressive fire vs. those damn sectoids!

Because crew-served weapons are too slow, and have no endurance. Only a few plasma shots are needed to take down a tank. One shot on a large, metal gun will vaporize it, detonate it's payload, and most likely kill the agent in the process. In the time it'd take you to set up the gun, you could already be shooting at the aliens with huge hand-held weapons and grenades. You start surrounded by aliens, so you'd be basically sending encumbered agents with huge targets into open space to fight aliens. :whatwhat:

 

You either have to be fast, or durable enough to take it. A mounted turret is neither, IMO.

[MagicAndy]

personally, I hate HWP, low time units, huge targets, don't get promoted, explode at the drop of a hat.

 

the only reason I take one or two at the end is because you can't take enough guns and ammo for a full load of troops!!

 

Oh yeah, and spawn

[SupSuper]

I tend to find that an Nova full of XCAPs has more success rate than an Nova full of soldiers, generally speaking. why?

- XCAPs have near infinite ammo. it even lasts on two-parter missions (SWSs on tftd).

- XCAPs have bigger chances of not dying with one shot than soldiers. they also don't need any special armor to be heavily armored and being able to fly (which you have to constantly manufacture for soldiers if they keep dying, since armor isn't a item)

of course, they also have disadvantages:

- they find it really hard to move inside buildings, or get inside most of them. or ufos.

- they're bigger than soldiers, thus are more easily hit.

- they're much more expensive than soldiers, thus tough if you lose many.

thus, I think XCAPs are pretty much balanced on their own. players will probably find best mixing soldiers with XCAPs than just putting soldiers or XCAPs in their transports.

 

Edit by Facehugger; No references to the old names please.

Edited April 29, 2004 by Cpl. Facehugger

[Breunor]

We're not making any significant changes to XCAPs (new acronym for the HWP) for version 1, which is what this forum is for. The balance is already there, a XCAP takes a 2m by 2m space equivalent to 4 soldiers. 4 soldiers with tactical gear might average 250 pounds or 113kg give or take, making a remotely controlled robot that weighs around 1000 pounds or 450kg is very realistic. I don't believe you lost any morale when the hwp was destroyed, so having one as a scout is a safe investment. Added to the that the speed/TUs is very good in the early game, so you can quickly cover ground and detect enemy units. I didn't use it for the firepower, mainly to find aliens and then move on to other areas while my guys moved in on the first detection.

 

I watch Robot Wars on TechTV several times a week. For those who have seen it, IIRC Sir Killalot is like 240kg. Increase its armor plating and load some powerful weapon system in there, and you'd have a good 450kg unit. I think this layout is very realistic in how it's designed.

 

There is already a forum under the laboratory for discussing changes to XCAPs in later versions, I suggest such ideas stay in there for convenience.

[Robo Dojo 58]

I watch Robot Wars on TechTV several times a week. For those who have seen it, IIRC Sir Killalot is like 240kg. Increase its armor plating and load some powerful weapon system in there, and you'd have a good 450kg unit. I think this layout is very realistic in how it's designed.

Sir Killalot is a lightweight. Growler is twice as heavy, and Mr. Psycho is nearly a metric ton. XCAPs would probably weigh closer to a ton, I think.

[mikker]

I watch Robot Wars on TechTV several times a week. For those who have seen it, IIRC Sir Killalot is like 240kg. Increase its armor plating and load some powerful weapon system in there, and you'd have a good 450kg unit. I think this layout is very realistic in how it's designed.

Sir Killalot is a lightweight. Growler is twice as heavy, and Mr. Psycho is nearly a metric ton. XCAPs would probably weigh closer to a ton, I think.

Growler? Psyco?

 

Well, if we could put in some hypnodisks in the crafts, then the aliens wouldn't dare face Earth

[Breunor]

True they would be very heavy using mild steel like robotwars uses, but we're taking titanium and kevlar galor here, using the latest fuel cells versus lead batteries and all that. And I'd be shocked to learn growler was twice as heavy as killalot, it would be made of pure lead based on its size (about the same size as killalot IIRC).

 

1 inch titanium plating would pretty much stop conventional weapons for the most part, put as already mentioned plasma weapons can tear them up. That sounds like a modern robot to me. As for the weight, I suggest 450kg as a fair weight as it replaces that much weight and space in soldier weight. It's certainly no hard and fast rule, but I would object to the idea that it weighs 5 times as much for example. Just my reasoning on the how and why it would work.

[Deimos]

Nah why use boring conventional materials like titanium when http://www.zzz.com.ru/index.php?area=issue...ue&issue_no=191 plastic tanks are being researched.

 

IIRC Titanium is quite a soft metal and isn't all that good against ballistics especially compared to Steel but it does offer a weight advantage. So maybe a composite structure using titanium as the laod bearing structure (something it is good at) and a mixture of the plastic used in these tanks and of course good old Kevlar too.

 

It would explain why the X-CAP's are transportable by air (lightness) and of course aren't resistant to that much damage.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

The tanks are actually pretty resistant to damage from human weapons. You could shoot a rifle at a tank until you turn blue but the tank'll still be there. Now shoot that same tank with a heavy plasma gun, and well...

 

Anyway, does anyone want this moved to the labs? It's kind of iffy.

[j'ordos]

IIRC titanium alloys used on aircraft are used primarily because they can stand a lot of heat compared to an equal weight of steel. Plus those alloys are resistant to corrosion and durable, but pricey too

But don't bullet-proof vests use plastics(kevlar) instead of titanium?

 

Anyway, composite titanium/plastic armor is still a possibility, most of the time layers of different materials are more efficient than ane thick layer out of one material, just look at the Chobham armor the latest generation of tanks uses.

[red knight]

It got iffy indeed, but the intend of moving it in here was to start talking about the gameplay issues not other non related stuff... If some admin wants to split the thread between gameplay related and the rest, it is welcomed to do so.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[jollyrobert]

Well, in order to stop this from getting too pie-in-the-sky, lets talk issues (though this forum should probably be moved to the labs anyway; I made it before I had a clear idea of what's up):

 

1st: people have suggested a "weight" rule, which right now only is in effect for equipment carried by people. THe landing-craft limit is entirely based on the number of items allowed to be carried onto the battlescape, which i am of the oinion is artificially limited. In order to keep people from bringing their whole house with them every time they attack, but not confining to the aribtrary limitations on vehicle capacity in the old versions, what are the suggestions?

 

2nd: This weight limit does not also extend to XCAPs, which are the only thing with significant 'volume' that you can carry in a landing-craft. XCAPs balance out by putting their 'volume' against the soldier capacity of the craft (which seems reasonable).

 

3rd: Would we like to model landing craft/aircraft speed as related to weight, or keep it simple and model speed as a constant? Do we feel an interceptor with a lighter weapons load should travel faster - perhaps even fast enough to take out those tiny UFOs?

 

Thanks:

Jolly Robert

[centurion]

The "volume" stat could solve the abovementioned issue IMO, being more realistic (only so many weapon racks) giving something like 400 space limit would allow pretty good inventories. Maybe we could even give some minuscule (100, say) amount of space and not count the "basic" equipment of the soldiers that they are assigned at the base?

[mikker]

if the X-CAPS were made of titanium, it would be far too heavy for the crafts. I like the idea of plastic alloys. This could prove to have better resistence ageanst plasma then titanium. But thats for the X-Net.

 

I think that the tanks need quite some protection (AA armor to Xenium Armor), but if plasma hit it, it doesn't JUST go down. If it hits some special places, nothing will happen. Other places like the buttom might make it go slower. If it hits right in the computer system, it stops working. If it hits in the ammo chambers.....well.....boom......or no cannon for the cap to shoot.

[Robo Dojo 58]

Yeah, I guess the weight of an X-CAP is offset by the volume of the X-CAP.

 

The space limit sounds like a good idea. Each troop transport would need its own space limit, based on how many troops/average X-CAPs it can carry. It'd be nice if I didn't have to drop a rocket launcher for one more grenade.

 

Mikker: So, would the systems damage be like critical wounds, in a way? Or will the X-CAP have several health bars for different systems? Either way, I think it's a neat idea, and would work well with the injury system of Agents. If an X-CAP shoots a grey in the leg, the grey (or his friend) can return the favor.