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#1 dan2

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Posted 18 February 2005 - 03:24 PM

In "The Laboratories" in the topic
http://www.xcomufo.c...ndpost&p=110896

Azrael wrote in the post #22:

"Within the clip are two compartments that hold the reacting ingredients. The first tank holds a gel-like mixture containing highly fractured Xenium-122. It also contains iron and uranium, along with traces of several other elements. The other tank contains heavy water. It should be noted that both containers are kept highly isolated to prevent malfunction and the risk to user safety is low.

When the two ingredients are mixed, and a high-frequency pulsed EM stimulus applied, the Xenium reacts violently in a manner best described as an explosion. The energy released in the reaction is sufficient to cause fusion of the deuterium atoms in the heavy water; a chain reaction that releases even more energy and superheats the mixture. The result, contained by magnetic fields, is plasma an ionic, electrically conductive gas. The resulting burst, directed by the weapon, is similar to ball of energy."

I'd like to suggest that lithium deuteride or even better, lithium(6) deuteride would produce a far more powerful fusion than deuterated water and that's because in deuterated water only 20% of it's mass would be able to be transformed through fusion and the mass transformed into energy for litium deuteride is higher than in deuterium to helium. Also, lithium deuteride is a solid that can be stored and handled much easier than deuterated water, which is somehow volatile.
What I'm not sure about is what kind of material would be able to reflect so efficiently the heat energy from fusion, even very strong magnetic fields are too weak to do it for something the size of a weapon. And imagine a soldier trying to fire such a weapon seeing his weapon flying instantly from his hand to the nearest steel object in the concrete of the building and exploding with a loud bang.

#2 tzuchan

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 07:44 PM

While I too personally prefer the idea of solid based ammunition, unfortunately, in this case, I have to bow down to the desires of the Artwork Department. They came up with the consept, including how it would work. I merely put the words together and did some research to make it plausible.
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#3 dan2

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 07:53 PM

While I too personally prefer the idea of solid based ammunition, unfortunately, in this case, I have to bow down to the desires of the Artwork Department. They came up with the consept, including how it would work. I merely put the words together and did some research to make it plausible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So they need this amunition liquid? Then lithium hydride can be suspended in mineral oil, still far more efficient than heavy water. Or even a concentrated solution of lithium hydroxide is better. Thanks for the reply, I thought nobody cares

#4 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 08:50 PM

I don't know, liquid or at least semi-liquid ammo fits more my idea of a plasma hit. I quite like it.

#5 dan2

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 08:57 PM

I don't know, liquid or at least semi-liquid ammo fits more my idea of a plasma hit. I quite like it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When xenium fires the fusion I doubt that it matter if the resulting plasma came from something solid, liquid or jelly-like. I was talking more about the energy per mass ratio which is much higher for lithium deuteride, so a soldier would have to carry ammos 5 times lighter and still more powerfull than those with heavy water.

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 09:23 PM

I think I know what you mean, but the trick is in the 'creative' part of the CTD :), we make it all seem realistic yet cool enough, but to seem realistic is not precisely to be realistic, to be honest I've lost myself in the beginning of your explanation and have not even tried to understand it as it seems excessively complicated, and if that happens to me, it'll happen to the average player.
We at the CTD make things sound cool, to me at least the fact of liquid plasma sounds cool, so I'm happy with it :D

#7 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 09:24 PM

Btw, if you can write in the Laboratories, can somebody please move this there?

#8 Blehm 98

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 09:26 PM

Lets see, a xenium and dueterium reaction causes the matter within the chamber to be heated into a plasma state, at which point its magnetic accelerators project it out of the weapon towards an enemy


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#9 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 09:30 PM

you wrote "heavy plasma", Tzuchan wrote "plasma weapons" in which yours is (or should be) based

#10 dan2

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 09:35 PM

Lets see, a xenium and dueterium reaction causes the matter within the chamber to be heated into a plasma state, at which point its magnetic accelerators project it out of the weapon towards an enemy

beleive me, since i wrote the CTD

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So it doesn't have to be as realistic, huh.... well, I'm a scientist, I'm a bit different.
Plasma is not accelerated by magnetic fields, is it? Charged particles are just deviated in magnetic fields while they are accelerated in electric fields. I thought the role of the magnetic fields in your description is to keep away the hot plasma from the cold weapon walls, preventing it's instant vaporization.
Now about "Azrael Posted Today, 11:24 PM"
"Btw, if you can write in the Laboratories, can somebody please move this there?"
Please don't move it yet, I won't be able to post in it anymore, since I don't have access there.

#11 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 09:48 PM

Ok, I thought you had access there.
It doesn't have to be realistic, it has to sound realistic, which is different but similar. Extremely scientific explanations result too complicated and boresome to the average players (in which I include myself, I like good explanations but not to the point in which is no longer an easy and fun read), so we make explanations which are not hard to read, sound realistic and scientific enough, and most important, they sound cool.

#12 dan2

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Posted 20 February 2005 - 09:56 PM

Ok, I thought you had access there.
It doesn't have to be realistic, it has to sound realistic, which is different but similar. Extremely scientific explanations result too complicated and boresome to the average players (in which I include myself, I like good explanations but not to the point in which is no longer an easy and fun read), so we make explanations which are not hard to read, sound realistic and scientific enough, and most important, they sound cool.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you think sounds cooler, heavy water or lithium deuteride?
In StarTrek they have a fancier name for it, dilitium, I think.
I'll try to rephrase my initial text to make it sound cooler (well, at least in my head) but simpler enough for everyone. There're so many people in the world, everybody have different ideas about cool, I don't know, maybe through discussion and new ideas we can make more people have the feeling what we're describing is real and cool at the same time

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 06:36 AM

Ok, I thought you had access there.
It doesn't have to be realistic, it has to sound realistic, which is different but similar. Extremely scientific explanations result too complicated and boresome to the average players (in which I include myself, I like good explanations but not to the point in which is no longer an easy and fun read), so we make explanations which are not hard to read, sound realistic and scientific enough, and most important, they sound cool.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you think sounds cooler, heavy water or lithium deuteride?
In StarTrek they have a fancier name for it, dilitium, I think.
I'll try to rephrase my initial text to make it sound cooler (well, at least in my head) but simpler enough for everyone. There're so many people in the world, everybody have different ideas about cool, I don't know, maybe through discussion and new ideas we can make more people have the feeling what we're describing is real and cool at the same time

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Of course through discussion, that's why our texts take so much time to complete :), anyway, once you are a recruit you'll be able to take this discussion directly to the plasma threads.
Dilithium sounds soooo cool :Drool: ... ehm, where was I?, oh yeah the Heavy Water, the thing is that heavy water does exist as I'm sure you know :), so there is a scientific fundament behind it. And as tzuchan said, we have to follow AWD's lead sometimes...
You have some very interesting ideas, we'll be waiting for you in the Workshops =b

Edited by Azrael, 21 February 2005 - 06:37 AM.


#14 stewart

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 08:41 AM

Okay Dan it should be fixed now. Can someone move/rename this thread appropriately.
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#15 dan2

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 05:32 PM

Of course through discussion, that's why our texts take so much time to complete :), anyway, once you are a recruit you'll be able to take this discussion directly to the plasma threads.
Dilithium sounds soooo cool :Drool: ... ehm, where was I?, oh yeah the Heavy Water, the thing is that heavy water does exist as I'm sure you know :), so there is a scientific fundament behind it. And as tzuchan said, we have to follow AWD's lead sometimes...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, you're right, mentioning dilithium was a poor idea, I know.
But lithium deuteride exists too, as is powerful. It is what they put in the hydrogen bomb, a bit of plutonium to reach the required fusion temperature and lithium deuteride to burn to helium. Several times more powerful than a normal atomic bomb. But I see I'm boring you with this, sorry.
I see why sometimes quasiscientific talk can be more entertaining than the normal science, we have a saying here in the departement: "We love chemistry so you don't have to" :)
But sticking close to science is giving you more than a mere prediction of the future, it's ensuring your stories will have a much longer life and they'll be enjoyable for more people. Jules Verne (I hope it's not again a bad example) is still read today because he tried to figure out where's the science at that point and tried to use his imagination to figure out the way it goes. He didn't have to know what will happen, but he took a long look in science.
There are so many ways to invent weapons based on real science than inventing a confusing "mumbo jumbo"language to explain how they work: neutrino cannons, terrahertz radiation telemetry, hafnium gamma ray pistols and so on, they don't exist, but they're based on real experiments.
The last example is planned to be used for plane engines: you irradiate metastable isotopes of hafnium with X-rays and they emit gamma rays 60 times the energy used to produce them. Adopting this style for a hand held weapon would be simple and still close to the truth. But I'll stop babbling....

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 07:14 PM

I agree with you, I personally love science (that's why I study engineering), always liked chemistry (not so fond of physics), so I can understand what you say, but the point is that even though I even like reading scientific articles from time to time, in a game I don't want to push my mind that much, I like to play a game to relax my mind instead. I like the game to be realistic, but I don't look for lecture that requires me to actually concentrate more than I do in an average game. Even though there might be people who enjoy reading really really scientific texts, the great majority (including myself :)) will want something lighter.
But, anyway, the plasma concept is Tzuchan's, and this concerns him, if you want to change Heavy Water to another thing, that is for Tzuchan to decide (and him complaining I torment him, heh). Should you want to take your arguments to Tzuchan, post here http://www.xcomufo.c...opic=1833&st=70
Another problem with changing the whole functionality established for plasma weapons is that all plasma weapons texts are (or should be)based on Tzuchan's, so changing it I think might be innecesary and something troublesome later. I personally like Tzuchan's text, if it fits partially or completely physic laws, seems realistic and cool enough, and it's coherent and explanatory, I'm happy with it.
The main issue is that we just write these texts using our imagination and present knowledge, occasional research to make sure it's not unrealistic, but the level of knowledge to know that lithium deuteride is better than heavy water is most generally above most of us (including myself :D). I hope you don't take offense from my words, but I think that deep level of scientific detail is excesively complicated for a game, and above my current understanding of chemistry.

#17 tzuchan

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 07:25 PM

*snorts* Unless dan2 is already a recruit, you're asking him to "Shut up and join us!"

BTW,

Plasma is not accelerated by magnetic fields, is it? Charged particles are just deviated in magnetic fields while they are accelerated in electric fields. I thought the role of the magnetic fields in your description is to keep away the hot plasma from the cold weapon walls, preventing it's instant vaporization.

Huh? electric fields? Magnetic fields?
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While plasma weapons systems has yet to be finalized, a lot of the work which is based on it, to my knowledge, is. So while I can't make any promises that obivious changes will make it in, I plan on sticking around long enough that version 2 shall feel my impact!
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#18 dan2

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 07:47 PM

*snorts* Unless dan2 is already a recruit, you're asking him to "Shut up and join us!"

BTW,

Plasma is not accelerated by magnetic fields, is it? Charged particles are just deviated in magnetic fields while they are accelerated in electric fields. I thought the role of the magnetic fields in your description is to keep away the hot plasma from the cold weapon walls, preventing it's instant vaporization.

Huh? electric fields? Magnetic fields?
AZZY! I really want him in Xenocide so I can pick on his brains!
While plasma weapons systems has yet to be finalized, a lot of the work which is based on it, to my knowledge, is. So while I can't make any promises that obivious changes will make it in, I plan on sticking around long enough that version 2 shall feel my impact!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, no, I understand his view, he's probably right and as long as he sees what I have to say, his decisions are fine with me, since he received input from many people and he has a much larger view of the project.
I can say I hardly wait to become a recruit, I already applied and I hope the process is started. If you can tell me which text I should read, I'll give you my oppinion as soon as I finish, now that Stewart allowed me to see and post in "The workshops"

#19 Blehm 98

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 07:57 PM

My reason for that is because plasma is charged, and due to this it could be accelerated using a magnetic accelerator, hence why i said that
what wrong with fusing dueterium and xenium together to make them explode and make plasma?
unless you want tritium, but i don't think that's right, might be too many neutrons to get the same reaction... i don't know too much, just what i've figured out myself, but i do know dueterium is what they tend to use in fusion reactors... the few times they've managed to actually get them to do anything
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#20 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 08:01 PM

*snorts* Unless dan2 is already a recruit, you're asking him to "Shut up and join us!"

BTW,

Plasma is not accelerated by magnetic fields, is it? Charged particles are just deviated in magnetic fields while they are accelerated in electric fields. I thought the role of the magnetic fields in your description is to keep away the hot plasma from the cold weapon walls, preventing it's instant vaporization.

Huh? electric fields? Magnetic fields?
AZZY! I really want him in Xenocide so I can pick on his brains!
While plasma weapons systems has yet to be finalized, a lot of the work which is based on it, to my knowledge, is. So while I can't make any promises that obivious changes will make it in, I plan on sticking around long enough that version 2 shall feel my impact!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh, no, I understand his view, he's probably right and as long as he sees what I have to say, his decisions are fine with me, since he received input from many people and he has a much larger view of the project.
I can say I hardly wait to become a recruit, I already applied and I hope the process is started. If you can tell me which text I should read, I'll give you my oppinion as soon as I finish, now that Stewart allowed me to see and post in "The workshops"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Stop yelling at me Tzuchan :D, I haven't been made an admin yet, therefore I cannot make him a recruit (would be nice to be an Admin, eh? :)), I also want him to be with us so he can help give a more scientific approach to those texts which need it badly.
Don't worry, your imput will be greatly appreciated and your scientific knowledge will be :master: .
Btw Tzuchan, I'm revising your plasma concept :naughty:

#21 dan2

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 08:36 PM

Oh darn, I thought I can post in "The workshops", but I have only read access. So I'll post here then.
About plasma weapons, I had a wierd idea. Please try not to laugh.
Why instead of producing plasma in a weapon and directing it to the target, xenium and deuterium would be encased separately into the bullet that when reaches the target would mix and form the plasma there, on the target itself? No more bulky magnetic coils or special alloys to withstand the heat and pressure and the same effect.

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 08:43 PM

The bullet would have to be broken upon impact (ie, the bullet cannot go all the way through the target) or there would be no more damage than the bullet itself. I think that would not be very efficient, we know it takes place in a plasma-generation chamber, the text is not very clear on what happens there, maybe the chamber acts as a catalizer (sp?)? It says that they react, but how slow is not mentioned, but if a plasma generation chamber is required, I guess it's for speeding up the process.

#23 dan2

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 09:12 PM

The bullet would have to be broken upon impact (ie, the bullet cannot go all the way through the target) or there would be no more damage than the bullet itself. I think that would not be very efficient, we know it takes place in a plasma-generation chamber, the text is not very clear on what happens there, maybe the chamber acts as a catalizer (sp?)? It says that they react, but how slow is not mentioned, but if a plasma generation chamber is required, I guess it's for speeding up the process.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So the chamber is made of neutron reflective material designed to speed up the Xenium fission reaction. I guess this could be an explanation, why not. Nuclear reactions don't need chemical catalysts, but the rate of fission is indeed determined by the concentration of neutrons.
In the CTD thread "portable" is the word to replace handheld?

#24 tzuchan

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 09:13 PM

In truth, aside from the AWD's requirement for two separate containers with liquid ammo inside, I would prefer a solid metal slug, containing the xenium mixture and whatever catalyst that is required. the metal slug itself would be fired out via a coilgun design, and the magnetic fields would cause the xenium to react and convert into high energy plasma, turning the surrounding materials into plasma as well
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#25 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 09:19 PM

I don't think it'd turn surrounding materials into plasma, plasma is a state in which it has a very high energy, right?, the material tends to lose energy to the surroundings, if the material has the necessary energy to be plasma and it transfers energy to the surroundings, it'd have to transfer energy equal to 100% it had originally to turn the surrounding into plasma. It'd make things REAL hot, but not plasma I think.

#26 dan2

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 09:25 PM

I don't think it'd turn surrounding materials into plasma, plasma is a state in which it has a very high energy, right?, the material tends to lose energy to the surroundings, if the material has the necessary energy to be plasma and it transfers energy to the surroundings, it'd have to transfer energy equal to 100% it had originally to turn the surrounding into plasma. It'd make things REAL hot, but not plasma I think.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Plasma is usually ionized gas and any substance at about 5000K would be plasma. Since nuclear reactions bring particles to millions of kelvin degrees (K) 1 gram of plasma would make 1 kg of colder but still very hot plasma using the surrounding materials. In the sun only the core is able to heat everything else to plasma

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 09:28 PM

Oh, right, I forgot that there must be different temperature per material in which it turns to plasma. I don't know, turning the surroundings into plasma by a plasma hit sounds wrong, I'm not sure why then.

#28 dan2

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 09:35 PM

Oh, right, I forgot that there must be different temperature per material in which it turns to plasma. I don't know, turning the surroundings into plasma by a plasma hit sounds wrong, I'm not sure why then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you might agree with what Tzuchan said earlier?
Anyway, think of it as extremely hot plasma and just hot plasma. Both very deadly :flamethrower:
Examples of (almost) everyday plasma can be flames and even colder, the gas inside fluorescent bulbs

Edited by dan2, 21 February 2005 - 09:44 PM.


#29 tzuchan

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 09:47 PM

I'm not talking about plasma hit generating plasma here(Logically, assuming the plasma has high enough a temp, it could. But we can also say because the plasma is "hittinh" an object, most of the heat may get spread into the surroundings. On the other hand, if the xenium mix is inside a metal slug, all of the heat radiated by the process will get "caught" by the surrounding slug...
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#30 dan2

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 10:04 PM

I'm not talking about plasma hit generating plasma here(Logically, assuming the plasma has high enough a temp, it could. But we can also say because the plasma is "hittinh" an object, most of the heat may get spread into the surroundings. On the other hand, if the xenium mix is inside a metal slug, all of the heat radiated by the process will get "caught" by the surrounding slug...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So in a way I'm proposing something similar to you in post #21. I agree with you, the weapon would be much simpler in construction than what's described now. I'm not sure, though, this would be a very powerful version of armor piercing or explosive hit?

#31 tzuchan

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Posted 21 February 2005 - 10:42 PM

Kind of possible both ways...
Assume construction of a slug with a thin layer of fragible(think ceramic) outer layer which can resist being converted to plasma. After firing, you'd have a ceramic shell filled with plasma. When it hits something, the shell would break, releasing a dense ball of rapidly expanding plasma.

On the other hand, if there was no such cover, the result would be closer to a stream of plasma, wearing away at the point of impact.

The first type would be closer to an impact explosive, while the seond would have penetration
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#32 stewart

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 12:45 AM

now that Stewart allowed me to see and post in "The workshops"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


It wasnt a matter of allow you specifically. The setting for the moderators and global moderators groups were incorrect, if fixed them you should have been able to see them all along. Basically I screwed up :blush1:
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