Jump to content


Photo

Boarding Ufos In Flight?


  • Please log in to reply
22 replies to this topic

#1 Evil-Jawa

Evil-Jawa

    Squaddie

  • Forum Members
  • PipPip
  • 1 posts

Posted 25 October 2003 - 08:19 AM

Anyone think that being able to board ufos in mid flight would be a pheasable addition? perhaps some sort of emp technology that shuts down navigations systems on ufos... just throwin this out there :blink:

#2 CptJackSparrow

CptJackSparrow

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 52 posts

Posted 25 October 2003 - 03:05 PM

Fast flying thing without navigations systems
and some humans fighting the crew...
Sounds... err... dangerous. But IF you wanted
to risk your whole squad dying in a UFO crash,
you would probably need some way of stunning
the crew first. I think your men would have to
cut a small hole into the UFO's hull and then enter
through it. That would give the aliens a decent
tactical advantage, especially when they know
you`re coming and in most cases they WILL
know it. :o

Perhaps small UFOs could be hold by a towrope,
so they won`t crash. Then you could drill a very
small hole and use stun gas...

Hmmm...
Another funny idea would be the ability to
seize landed UFOs and use them as cheap
interceptors. After interrogation of an alien
navigator and construction of a UFO hangar.

But all this would probably have a serious
negative impact on game balance. :sly:

#3 Cpl. Facehugger

Cpl. Facehugger

    Creative Text Department

  • Xenocide Inactive
  • 3,749 posts

Posted 25 October 2003 - 03:14 PM

Well, I figure that once the power to the ufo is gone, the ufo will fall like a rock (no wings or other aerodynamic surfaces that can catch air and glide down) and that would probably be bad...

Besides, do you know how hard it would be to transfer a strike team between a fast-moving and highly UFO and a skyranger/lightning/avenger?

I like the idea of using captured ufos, but as you said, balance is a big problem. :(
I'm only partially inactive. :P I can still be reached at cpl.facehugger@gmail.com, and via PM. Preferably the former.

*Coming back? Avast! Facehugger, finish your assignments!*

Posted Image

#4 websee

websee

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 18 posts

Posted 08 February 2004 - 03:05 PM

well, about captured ufos...

you capture a ufo, you need a special ufo hangar...
different types of hangars for different ufo sizes...
you can only use undamaged ufos, because your scientists and engineers are too stupid to repair them...
fuel is very expensive...
you need special pilots...
no ability to change weapos systems...

or your engineers/scientists are too stupid to refuel them, so you have to choose after each mission if you take the ufo in one peace and use it until it runs out of fuel, or you extract the elerium-115 out of the power source and wreck the ufo.

but i like the idea of capturing a unique craft better.

it would be nice infiltrating an alien base using their own battleships as disguise...
i would change the world, but god does not give me the source code...

#5 GARAK

GARAK

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13 posts

Posted 27 April 2005 - 02:27 PM

The only "realistic" way to board a ufo in flight would be to put a couple of guys in a large missile tube and ram it into the ufo. After researching allien alloys to make a strong enough puncturing incident you just retrofit the missile. The "avalanches" have no trouble hitting the ufos so that wouldn't be a problem. You would only have one or two guys though, that would be a really tough fight. I guess the missile could miss every once in a while and the guys would die, or bail out with flying suits. It would be fun. What happens when you win the mission? Blow it up and bail? Fly it home for dismantling? Land in Nevada and turn it into a casino?

#6 sir_schwick

sir_schwick

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 27 April 2005 - 07:04 PM

This could never happen with an Interceptor trying to attack a UFO. However it does give me a few ideas:

"Trojan Hawk" - This is a variation of the Trojan Horse, except you are doing an air-to-air transfer. Your very psi-capable guys, working through a drugged Sectoid Commander/Leader, with a special device, communicate with an enemy UFO(probably picked up on HWD). They convince them to transfer some critical crew from your ship to theirs. The two craft approach and connect through some docking mechanism(the situation has to have come up before).

You must have the relevant technical info for the UFO type, your computers and navigator manage to hack the enemy UFO for a short window, to allow your troops to transfer. This window will range from 3 to 7 turns. After that your craft tries to avoid getting shot and ready to shoot if you give the order. The UFO will be trying to shoot your craft, if aliens are on the controls. From this point its a normal mission, but each turn presents the danger of losing your craft with whoever did not make it over.

There are additional dangers during the mission. If the alien computers are damaged, then someone/thing must be able manually adjusting the following systems:

Navigation - Steers the ship and controls how it moves. Knocking out the controller and letting auto-pilot work puts your ship at a much better position. If both stations go, the UFO continues in whatever direction it was heading(which could be straight down, or hitting the ground within a few turns). Your guys might be able to navigate but they can't fight at the smae time, obviously.
Weapons - These control the UFO weapons systems. The computer will keep firing(at lower effectiveness) at the computer's selected target. Whoever controls weapons can change the auto-target which can include any UFOs in the flight group. Knocking out the systems either silences the guns or causes erractic looping fire.
Internal Power - These control gravity, lifts, and doors. Each of these three can be set to true or false(be careful with gravity). Once both manual and computer are damaged, these settings will randomnly switch between true and false.
Engines - These control the means of propulsion for the craft. Computer control will just it stable, not provide good performance. Once computer goes down, the power sources need to be watched to avoid being overloaded or going inert. The first is obviously a local explosion and the latter means you will not get power back. Obviously less engines mean performance worsens and no engines means you will drop like a brick.


When all the aliens are dead...
The two most preforable options would be to use the craft for a Trojan Horse mission at an alien base or facility or take it home to be salvaged correctly. Of course if manual navigation has been shot, this is not an option. Also having too little propulsion(fuel + power wise) may prevent the ideal trip. Now these are the following options, make the connections to what intactness you would need.

1) Leech Elerium in Flight - If you have the appropriate tech and equipment, you leech the Elerium from the engines into pods and then get out of the craft. At that point it falls like a brick from the sky.
2) Land and do the normal salvage - If you can still fly, but not make it, this is probably a more practical(although not as cool) solution.

Edited by sir_schwick, 27 April 2005 - 07:05 PM.


#7 Snakeman

Snakeman

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts

Posted 27 April 2005 - 10:34 PM

I still prefer that any boarding you can do can only happen in space. I think trying to do it in an atmosphere is way more risky.

I think also that certain things should remain unattainable by you until you've reached a particular point in the story. That way, its something to strive for after you've managed to get the first space ships made. Besides, I think it better livens up the stage between achieving intersolar spaceflight and then to do the final assault on Mars.

I do like what you've outlined though. I've always wanted some interactivity within the game environment. It can also help make some with the know how more valuable to you among your teams.

And while its true in the story that we're supposedly fighting a losing battle, it doesn't have to mean you don't gain new capabilities. What's of paramount concern to the activities of a group like X-COM is to gain the opportunities to use those capabililities by how you play.

Just to give a fer instance...

While I play I gain the knowledge to build and use Avengers. I have a few choices though once I've gotten this far:

1) Use Avenger assault on Mars from Earth as before. Pros: Cheapest approach, and you gain the ability to conduct boarding operations. You may not need so many Avengers with this approach. Con(s): While you may not need many Avengers, it may take longer to root out bases on Mars through recon and capture of leaders there to direct you to Cydonia. Also while you can now board enemy ships in space, its not a requirement to victory going this route. If you play a more aggressive game, you might not want to pass up the Elerium flow it could provide.

2) Use these craft exclusively to construct a foothold on Mars, with the intention of launching my attack on Cydonia from there. Main Pro: Cheapest of the intersolar craft you can tap into and use, and the new ability of performing boarding operations against the enemies ships in space. These boardings could also make the difference between how many ships you'd need for supplies to Mars. Main Con(s): You need several to ferry supplies back and forth to Mars, especially if you intend to do many boardings.

3) Use Avengers I have sparingly to hold the line at Earth. With this approach its more expensive while research and contruction is being done on the first mobile X-COM space based carrier. Your best bet to fund this endeavour is through many boardings of UFOs in space as well as whatever turns up on Earth still. Pros: With the use of a carrier, you could forego the Mars base set up entirely if you chose to. Also having one should not take away from your total number of bases allowed for planets. Con(s): If you bring out the big dogs, odds are the aliens will too, so expect an equivalent or larger ship(s) you've not seen before in the war. You'll also need special facilities to build it under their noses. You can make more than one but the costs become exponential.

Anyway, I think the transition in the war could be an interesting one with the added dimentions of base building and ship boardings in space. The latter becomes important for the organization's self sufficiency I feel late game. Plus there seems like more ways than one to reach the end objective.

#8 sir_schwick

sir_schwick

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 28 April 2005 - 08:08 AM

I think that once we get Avengers, we should also be able to use captured UFOs. The balancing factor would be the fact that aliens have been attacking your sorties the whole game.

Maybe Captured ships could be used as part of the Carrier to reduce costs. It would be funny shaped with the BS propulsion foot instead of the original and etc.

#9 Snakeman

Snakeman

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts

Posted 28 April 2005 - 10:27 AM

Well certainly, captured craft would be especially useful for both your supply runs to a Mars base, for sneakier boardings of other alien ships or infiltrations of bases, and all around travel through our solar system in general terms. I think while using Avengers for most things is a more challenging way to play as they are hybrids and easier for aliens to distinguish from their own, the main appeal to them should be that they're the cheapest ways to get things done out there in terms of craft investment.

Captured craft put the sneakiness back into the organization's makeup, so the ability to do things more clandestinely should remain as an alternative play style choice throughout.

This approach presumes your teams have above average psi defense/skill, but also gain the know how through all your previous research efforts into alien craft, the ability to pilot those craft and perform emergency actions with them through interactivity of the ship's systems. It would be nice too that your scientists and engineers were not just numbers on a balance sheet, and that from time to time you'd want a few on a mission to achieve certain operational ends like this. Perhaps not every single one, but for the first few boarding missions undertaken for each alien ship that would be present - enough attempts with them that gradually your soldiers become better field agents in terms of on-the-spot assesments and actions to be performed.

Imagine if the scientist/engineer units were always the weakest psi link in the missions as well. It could raise the challenge of these missions where aliens with psi are present. Might need to stun 'em and hope there's time between taking out the occupants of the ship, and getting it ready before any more arrive.

An alternate way to use them would be to only go after those ships on your HWD that don't show psi aliens, but the hurt here could be that you might not be able to achieve the know how to build or use larger craft either as trojan horses or to construct your carrier hybrid.

#10 Emilio Estevez HV panics

Emilio Estevez HV panics

    Squaddie

  • Forum Members
  • PipPip
  • 1 posts

Posted 28 April 2005 - 11:32 AM

Well certainly, captured craft would be especially useful for both your supply runs to a Mars base, for sneakier boardings of other alien ships or infiltrations of bases, and all around travel through our solar system in general terms.  I think while using Avengers for most things is a more challenging way to play as they are hybrids and easier for aliens to distinguish from their own, the main appeal to them should be that they're the cheapest ways to get things done out there in terms of craft investment. 

Captured craft put the sneakiness back into the organization's makeup, so the ability to do things more clandestinely should remain as an alternative play style choice throughout.

This approach presumes your teams have above average psi defense/skill, but also gain the know how through all your previous research efforts into alien craft, the ability to pilot those craft and perform emergency actions with them through interactivity of the ship's systems.  It would be nice too that your scientists and engineers were not just numbers on a balance sheet, and that from time to time you'd want a few on a mission to achieve certain operational ends like this.  Perhaps not every single one, but for the first few boarding missions undertaken for each alien ship that would be present - enough attempts with them that gradually your soldiers become better field agents in terms of on-the-spot assesments and actions to be performed.

Imagine if the scientist/engineer units were always the weakest psi link in the missions as well.  It could raise the challenge of these missions where aliens with psi are present.  Might need to stun 'em and hope there's time between taking out the occupants of the ship, and getting it ready before any more arrive.

An alternate way to use them would be to only go after those ships on your HWD that don't show psi aliens, but the hurt here could be that you might not be able to achieve the know how to build or use larger craft either as trojan horses or to construct your carrier hybrid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Regarding the maintaining of game balance if the capturing of alien craft is allowed... what if aliens could do something similar? There could be a random chance during item transfers between bases that the recieving base would be hit by an alien raid (assuming they took control of the transport ship and snuck inside). In that case the aliens would by-pass any base defenses and/or interceptors (though squaddies still defend if present). If the raid was successfully conducted, the base was destroyed and XCOM had any interceptors landed inside then the aliens come out with a hybrid interceptor later in game...

#11 Snakeman

Snakeman

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts

Posted 28 April 2005 - 09:31 PM

Good idea, it does after all highlight the infiltration abilities of the aliens and why they're so good at messing with governments. Why not extend this to its logical conclusion in their minds when they realize there's a group of pesky humans who just won't bend?

I'd say that it might be better to have a random key facility get taken out in these attempts, and that, only of the variety that involve the break out of alien hostages within the alien containment facility (if that's the alien mission against you) generates a base battlescape. Choosing Yes loads it, choosing No won't, but you run the risk of losing another random facility as they escape.

Choosing No to load it could also be hurtful toward you later if the base hadn't previously been revealed to the aliens via scouts etc. If it had, no harm done...well except for the lost facilities heh. Anyway, I like the infiltration mission concepts, but as a player I'd like to be able to perform them rather than just be a victim of them like the first game. Pirating ships or "hitching a ride" somehow, would also allow for an alternate way of discovering base locations.

You'd have a way in sure, but if you die on your way out, the location won't be known unless through more extensive scouting efforts or more tries at infiltration/pirating if not simply to tail a supply ship.

#12 dipstick

dipstick

    Colonel

  • [Global Moderators]
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,011 posts

Posted 29 April 2005 - 04:26 AM

Well, these sound like good ideas - maybe for this 'hitching a ride to a base' theory - you could already pretty do that much when tracking Supply Ships :D

But another idea, to incorporate an infiltration element, when you are already attacking an alien base, there could be a possibility of having UFOs in hangars (like our interceptors could be too). WHEN you take out the first base, you have the option of boarding the UFOs with X men (depending on UFO type and size) and using auto pilot to go to 'secret' location, which is another base (most likely a base that wasn't actually there to begin with, to ensure that it has not been previously detected)

The advantage of this is, you can take out TWO bases in one go - and you have a 5 turn advantage on the aliens on the second base.

The disadvantages are - possible lack of ammo (I mean TWO bases worth of aliens.... without alien tech!!) in addition, you have men which are already fatigued, and so possibly need a penalty to reflect this.

Of course, if you assault a base which has no idea that you are coming, it is more likely that THEY will have UFOs in the hangars, awaiting your use, so you could theoretically carry on forever doing this, but the penalties on your men (who could be injured/killed in any attack!) would increase; the size of UFO could limit the number of men to a very small task force on some missions - eg just 4/5 on small scout! Ultimately though, it all depends on stats. The chance of finding ANY UFO in a base should be small, with various chances of finding a specific type of UFO - I mean if you get a BB in a base, you should be able to take a full avenger full + of men (and if we include multiple avengers attacking a base, you can see where this could lead.......)

I think the chances of finding ANY UFO should be 0.1

and if you find a UFO:

0.05 chance of BB
0.25 chance of large scout
0.25 chance of med scout
0.25 chance of small scout
0.20 chance of other craft

something like that

I am now going to collapse...... *sigh*
Posted Image

#13 sir_schwick

sir_schwick

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 29 April 2005 - 08:58 AM

This is kinda sideways, but you should be able to deactivate(infantry weapons won't harm the anti-ship defenses)/activate the anti-ship defenses. Aliens could do the same to yours as well. On Trojan horse missions for both sides one goal would be to try and take down or weaken base defenses so they could land a couple BS directly in the hangar. Then a harrowing goal for both sides would be reactivating defenses or collapseing the hangars/lift if reinforcements get bad.

#14 Snakeman

Snakeman

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts

Posted 29 April 2005 - 05:02 PM

@dipstick, yea, I had a similar idea, but mainly for finding/or going to one base at a time. Basically repeating the procedure for each one if infiltration was your goal.

But I hadn't thought about the idea you gave of sort of "daisy chaining" one bad guy base with another, and another so long as a craft was present for you to abduct and use with this same single infiltration team. I'll grant you that what's appealing about this alternative way of playing the infiltration game is it stacks odds against you progressively from base to base.

It might be fun if you had a good group of soldiers for this who were in essence still cannon fodder in your mind...Just to see how far they could go and what damage they could do until they're all gone heh. Still, you might run into problems when you get down to about three guys still alive. I can't enivision them being able to keep on going to another base destination to fight if there wasn't at least a small or medium scout ship there to take.

There's a question that comes to mind in all this though, and that's the buisiness of "what are they infiltrating for?" Some destruction is a given here, but any of your other soldiers, if destruction was all you were after, couild handle this job if the base was already known to you.

I'm referring to what tid bits of info or interactive base systems could they need to go for? My guess is, find the control center, neutralize whoever is there, tap into the computers and find the next enemy base location, so that the ship you'll use to get there has that data. It may need a further code to get you in initially (you could call it something that let's the hanger doors open for you or whatever at the destination base). Other activities, if it wasn't a total base destruction mission - being the preliminary step for your other soldiers to crack it by having those infiltrators shut down the outter anti-ship guns to the base before they move on.

Something you could add to those percentages, but apply it to the info gleened from computers in the nerve center...percents to find the next base, percents to shut down X many systems, or other percentages to shut down a random key facilty they need, also the percents needed to get a parked ship to respond to your guys when they're ready to take off with it (maybe they have something like those wheel boots for cars, but more massive for docked ships holding them there). If you weren't going to go for another base, or you failed to learn the next destination, you can add another perecent to communicate out to other X-COM units, the current base's location for extraction...Then one of those upper green rooms could become accessable to you to escape from.

This is just ideas on what they might be able to do from the command center though. For things like overloading a good portion of the base to cause it more damange, they might need to be in the room with the power sources to do that there. Granted, I know that in the first game, to take out the command center effectively killed the base...And perhaps that could remain as an aspect to killing bases. I'm just speaking though from a perspective of hurting them bad without taking it out completely.

Edited by Snakeman, 29 April 2005 - 05:18 PM.


#15 Snakeman

Snakeman

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts

Posted 29 April 2005 - 05:25 PM

Also, for the aliens to do this to you, maybe they don't go from one of your bases and then go to the next using your craft, though I'm sure they can try it as you are. They alternatively can probably get this info over time through infiltrationg an allied government to X-COM, and from there uncovering the MiB supply lines back to one of the bases.

Heh, I can imagine that if this happened too frequently, everyone would be paranoid. I mean, if they're coming in through the MiBs' network, that compromises the black market you need to survive economically. It certainly raises the stakes in the mid-to-late stages of the game if you haven't reached some level of self sufficiency (i.e. still relying on governments, but also that market)..

#16 sir_schwick

sir_schwick

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 29 April 2005 - 05:56 PM

To help in the 'base crawls', you could transfer fresh guys over to the Trojan horse in mid flight. You attack base A, take a med scout and start flying. Mid flight one of your ships docks and gets new guys in their, they continue onto base two. The aliens might do the same thing, although in both cases there is an issue:

Unless you were really really really fast, I imagine someone calls in the attack to alert other bases. That means you and they would be suspicious of vehicles coming from that area or entering bases period. They, and you, would probably have the entire base lined up, ready to shoot whomever emerged from the craft.

However hope is not lost. From craft in base, you could get the recorder log which lists all destinations in the 24 hours. THis at least gives you a list of prospective base sites to investigate. Of course the UFO amy have gone through known bases as well.

#17 Snakeman

Snakeman

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts

Posted 30 April 2005 - 11:28 AM

I'll say again I like the possibilities inherent in continuing onward with a single infiltration team, just to see how far they can go. But your right shwick, it does present balance issues when you think about in what ways the aliens can do the same to you.

Like I said, if this happened too frequently on both sides, they'd be paranoid. I mean, unless (if this was both sides using a captured side's craft against them) orders and/or explanations can be made for them, especially if these were ships at one time "presumed lost" on some other escapade or duty, I'd presume there's also another percent of success that can be added, and that's the ability to dupe the other side in trusting this new arrival or to shoot it down to be on the safe side.

Likely as well, if alien infiltration to your bases is occuring through the MiB network as frequently, it raises the questions of "how do we distinguish human from aliens?" I'd reckon this would be another X-COM research effort asap once this was realized by command...Something they might have to impliment at a time when they may have to consider postponing ALL supplies to and from their bases temporarily while this occurs.

It might be another fun side objective to do later on too...Secure your supply lines by tagging along with some MiBs while they do what they do naturally.

It may or may not also be prudent while this is going on to deactivate the base of yours that was compromised in favor of smaller encampments you could move much more easily than dealing with so many fixed structures. Or to use a camp like this for a transfer spot, always moving it to a new locale after a supply drop or item liquidation run.

Aliens could take this que from you too however, and set up similar transfer encampments. Unless they're going to be a more overconfident and arrogant adversary to think this way.

#18 Exo2000

Exo2000

    Colonel

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,009 posts

Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:19 AM

I can just see an Avenger swooping down on a Medium Scout, locking onto it with two high-tensile cables and heavy magnetic clamps, and then flying off with it. :D
Posted Image

#19 Snakeman

Snakeman

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 227 posts

Posted 03 May 2005 - 09:14 AM

Remarkably Exo, that tactic doesn't sound that bad. I mean, if the ship you were going after revealed that there were no Psi aliens onboard, and you could disable their ship's weapons, who's to stop you? ;)

Well, maybe they could call in their brothers, so better be wary, or hope you have enough fellas with a high Psi Defense bubble that they could project around themselves and the aliens in crisis. Or, perhaps if you could target their hardwired communications, that'd be enough too. Anyway, their pesky brainwave communication is the only loophole I could see to this tactic.

Still though, if the aliens were not Psi capable, you have better odds since it then relies on other capable aliens to check up on their pals status themselves. It forces them to be proactive in keeping tabs on every ship crew which would be hard if some seem to be alone.

Edited by Snakeman, 03 May 2005 - 09:16 AM.


#20 sir_schwick

sir_schwick

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 03 May 2005 - 10:49 AM

The aliens weakness is there reliance on Psi for communication and coordination. That means they are more likely to trust a Psi source.

Of course it is hard for humans to pretend to be alien Psi signatures. But imagine you could work through a surrogate; a psi-capable alien leader. Your research reveals drugs that will make them have little control and your psi-experts control them. They can now communicate with craft and make it easy to hook on cables and board. Of course once they see your smiling faces the charade is over, but your X-COM biatch! Your already on the ship and killing the idiots who let you on. This is at best a mid to late game tactic, probably late game.

#21 TheGeneral

TheGeneral

    Rookie

  • Forum Members
  • Pip
  • 0 posts

Posted 03 May 2005 - 11:40 AM

once the aliens catch on to your base hopping strategy, wont the chances increase of you "hopping" into an alien ambush and getting your squads blown to bits, or interrigated into reveiling your base locations? That might help the game balance a little and make the descion of a second hop have a little more weight.

#22 sir_schwick

sir_schwick

    Captain

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:39 PM

Then you could also have the same option. Let a known Trojan Horse in, kill them, but let down the shields anyway. Your mind shield will keep them from knowing its an ambush. Your hangar will need to have been equipped with the appropriate 'PUNKED' Anti-Alien gear. Perfect way to capture those arrogant arse commanders and get a somewhat mauled BS.

#23 GARAK

GARAK

    Sergeant

  • Forum Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 13 posts

Posted 24 May 2005 - 05:38 PM

I don't want to think about all these things when I'm playing a game. This whole thing is becoming to complicated for the average gamer.
I would like there to be more to do than the original games, but this might be to much.