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#1 GreatGold

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Posted 19 June 2003 - 09:30 PM

EDIT: PLEASE NOTE THE XENOCIDE NAMES HAVE NOT BEEN DETERMINED YET FOR EVERY ITEM OR UNIT IN THE GAME, REFERENCES TO NAMES WHICH ARE THE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY OF ATARI OR OTHER COMPANIES BY INDIVIDUAL PROJECT MEMBERS IS NOT CONDONED BY THE PROJECT AND THE PROJECT DOES NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR SUCH ACTIONS. INDIVIDUALS SHOULD REFER TO ENTRY NAMES AGREED TO BY THE PROJECT, AND IF SUCH A NAME DOES NOT YET EXIST THEY SHOULD USE A SUBSTITUTE IN [BRACKETS]. THANKS!


Hey All -

Denevine has produced an excellent second draft of his Firestorm entry. Now, its time for all of you to help out! Posted below is both the document, and attached is the document in .txt format (for all you nuts with OpenOffice, etc :D ).

Some comments I have on it:
1.) Better integration with the Alien Alloy Test, although this is not Denevine's fault as a rough draft has not even been posted yet.
2.) Better integration with Elerium-115 and Alien Propulsion entries, see above though.
3.) I feel a more high-tech navigation system is needed, similar to Cpt. Boxershort's system in the HWP entries. Avionics could easily play a part with this, perhaps even connected with alien navigation.
4.) Other than that, a really great start!

So if people would contribute, I'd really like to see a final, or at least semi-final, document asap, especially since the graphics model is also in its final stage!

Lets hear your thoughts people :)

Thanks,
Gold

ps - A huge bravo to Denevine for his work...

Firestorm Interceptor

As the war with the alien menace continues, it has become apparent that our standard interceptors are unable to cope with the increasing size and frequency of alien vessels. This has led to the research and implementation of a new form of interceptor craft.

After the research of Alien Alloys was completed, it was obvious that Xenocide, like its alien adversaries, could use this amazing amalgamation of materials in its craft’s design. Due to the ‘zero friction’ properties of the Alien Alloy, a new interceptor craft could be designed that would maximize the use of thrust, and create a craft capable of achieving speeds in excess of any current earth-based craft. Other alien technologies, such as Elerium 115 and UFO propulsion systems, were also determined to be of use in this project.

The Firestorm has been created using the alien ‘saucer’ design as a basis for construction. The Firestorm is powered by a central Elerium 115 based reaction chamber. During the reaction process, power is sent throughout the chassis of the interceptor, while waste particles and exhaust are vented into the engines. These reactive particles are mixed with highly pressurized jet fuel to create an extremely combustible and powerful propellant. The triangular chassis of the Firestorm is created by using lightweight aluminum-titanium alloys as a base with precious Alien Alloys affixed to the skin of the craft in rough ‘plates’. These plates cover approximately 95% of the interceptor, thus reducing friction with the air, allowing the Firestorm to reach the high speeds necessary in a new interceptor craft.

The shape of the Firestorm is reminiscent of failed ‘flying wing’ designs, used as a basis for air force concepts in the late 1950s. Use of the Alien Alloys, as well as the thrust of the Elerium-jet fuel reaction allows the Firestorm to succeed where initial delta wing designs failed. Use of the Alien alloys in chassis and armor construction also prove the Firestorm to be a much more robust craft than current interceptors, taking a considerable amount more damage before destruction. Much of this can be attributed to the damage dispersion properties of the Alien Alloy plates. Similar to the chainmail of ancient warfare, the armor of the Firestorm disperses impact, heat, and electrical energy along the length of the craft.

The Firestorm Interceptor is equipped with two forward weapon mounts situated to the left and right of the cockpit and unlike the XC-1 Interceptor, the Firestorm was built with the increased power needs of new weapons in mind. A pilot will find the weapon power meter situated on lower right of his HUD, giving an accurate and constant representation of the flow of energy to his forward mounted weapons systems. These hard points are suitable for any craft based weapon, although Plasma weapons prove to be well suited for use with the Firestorm. The extreme heat put off by Plasma weapons cooling systems (see X-Net entry ‘Plasma Cannon’) is easily dissipated throughout the hull of the craft. Plasma weapons can be fired with a slower recharge time, and less worry for overheating due to the heat dissipation properties of the Alien Alloys used in the construction of the Firestorm. Other weapon systems also grow in effectiveness when coupled with the fast and maneuverable Firestorm. (For further information please see the ‘Craft Armament’ section of the X-Net Database.)
Due to our relative inexperience when working with Elerium based fuel systems, and our very basic understanding of its power giving reactions, the Firestorm is unable to stay aloft for long periods of time. While the Elerium-jet fuel propulsion system allows for unheard of speeds in an earthborn craft, fuel consumption is extremely high. As such, it should be used as a quick and decisive strike against an enemy UFO, and not as a long-range reconnaissance craft.

In laboratory field tests, the Firestorm has performed well, but a few problems were found during initial flight procedures. Besides the fuel consumption rate of the engine, the maneuverability of the craft was far less than was needed for a new interceptor design. It seems that at the speeds reached by the Firestorm, it was unable to compensate for the quick turns and ‘jerks’ so common when chasing a UFO. This flaw was rectified by installing a intricate thruster system across the hull of the craft. The main engine applies forward thrust, while smaller ‘micro thrusters’ adjust the orientation of the craft. This MTS or Maneuvering Thrust System allows the Firestorm to slide smoothly in any direction, adjusting its orientation as necessary, without losing the forward thrust given off by the main engine.

A second problem was found after the installation of the MTS. The extreme Gs pulled when executing quick turns in the Firestorm lead to internal trauma in the pilot. A Motion-Dampening Field was designed and installed in the cockpit. This field is based around the relatively new concept of ‘dense air’. Small deposits of Elerium 115 surround the cockpit of the Firestorm, each connected to the central power system of the craft. The flow of energy through the deposits creates a reaction throughout the air of the cockpit, causing the air molecules to slow their movement. This, in conjunction with certain unknown properties of the Elerium field, creates a protective bubble in the cockpit of the craft. G forces are greatly reduced, and chance of pilot injury all but eliminated. Further research into this area could prove fruitful.

With the installation of the MTS and Motion-Dampening Field, the Firestorm’s usefulness as an interceptor craft became undeniable. It is the recommendation of the science department that Firestorms be put into production as soon as possible.

Attached Files


Edited by RustedSoul, 27 February 2004 - 07:49 AM.

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#2 Breunor

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 07:58 AM

Perhaps the firestorm could be a remote-piloted craft? I think it would be easier to do that, than to create an inertia-dampening field. If a pilot and field are wanted, what about a mass-reducing field? It could create a state of weightlessness for the pilot during flight, reducing the body weight by like 90%. That would allow 10 times the G force to be exerted. This tech could stem from the flying suit research, which uses massive magnetic fields to "repel gravity". These fields could be channeled to create a bubble of sorts in the cockpit. Of course, alien alloys would have zero magnetic properties, and would be used for shielding electronics that would be affected by such fields. Perhaps a feature of elerium is that it's superconducting at room temperature, and when stimulated it can produce these fields.

#3 GreatGold

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 08:15 AM

Hmmm -

I like that idea very much. It also has EXCELLENT expandability for v8.0+, should players in some way be given control of their craft.

It also would work very well with a Flying Suit entry, and tie the techs together. I think this is a great way to do things, gives the impression of an immersive BUT connected universe. Which is better than a lot of cool things that don't really correlate to eachother.

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#4 Denevive

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 09:44 AM

Hey all-

I've already changed the dampening field to include the gravity changes, instead of air density changes. Thanks to those who posted on the 'Flying Suit Idea' string for that input.
As for the inclusion of alien propulsion systems and different avionics, my take on the Firestorm is that it is the first attempt by human scientists to integrate alien technology into earthborn craft. As such, the 'best' systems would not have been integrated yet. I believe that the Firestorm entry should show a fighter that is a step up from the XC-1, but it's not an Avenger yet. It's still to early in the saucer technology. (After all, the same basic avionics were used in X-Com Interceptor. I can spice them up with some techno babble, and mention state of the art navigation, etc. systems that are currently in development at NASA. I just need to know what in general we are looking for in the entry.)
I personally like the idea of the hybrid fuel system, as it explains the terrible fuel efficency of the craft. In the original X-Com the Firestorm only had a fuel rating of 20, whereas the standard Interceptor and Avenger had fuel ratins in the thousands.
I am open to any suggestions that you all have, please feel free to comment and critique. :blink:
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#5 GreatGold

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 09:54 AM

Hey -

Yeah, I completely agree with you on the hybrid propulsion system. I had completely frogetten how inefficient and short-ranged it was (I rarely use them).

I still think it would be cool if both the HWP's and Firestrom used the same control mecchanisms, but its your call for now :D . Also, keep in mind that this takes place at time X in the future, so things will be more advanced than now.

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#6 Cpt. Boxershorts

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 10:21 AM

I don't think I can work the 'Frictionless' bit into the Alien alloys, unfortunatly. Too many things are made out of it (including hand weapons). I sure wouldn't want to carry a frictionless heavy plasma.

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#7 Denevive

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 10:52 AM

That's what grips are for! :blink:

Arrgh! Another rewrite!

Okay, try this on for size: the Alien Propulsion Systems create a frictionless 'bubble' around the craft, dropping windshear immensly. (kind of like the bubble that appears around a ship before it goes to warp) The Firestorm utilizes this basic function of alien propulsion but it's to early in the research and implementation process to use gravity waves themselves for propulsion.

Think about it...

Anyway, I thought that I'd pos the rewrite that I did on the MTS and Motion-Dampening Field in the Firestorm. As you can see, I used the HWP control system in the MTS (I guess that would explain why thepilot can execute all of these intricate manuvers while still focusing on shooting the alien UFO down.)

In laboratory field tests, the Firestorm has performed well, but a few problems were found during initial flight procedures. Besides the fuel consumption rate of the engine, the maneuverability of the craft was far less than was needed for a new interceptor design. It seems that at the speeds reached by the Firestorm, it was unable to compensate for the quick turns and ‘jerks’ so common when chasing a UFO. This flaw was rectified by installing a intricate thruster system across the hull of the craft. The main engine applies forward thrust, while smaller ‘micro thrusters’ adjust the orientation of the craft. The micro thrusters are operated using a variant of the AlphaWave neural command system used in our Heavy Weapon Platforms. Using speed-of-thought commands, the Pilot can effortlessly use the MTS or Maneuvering Thrust System to slide the Firestorm smoothly in any direction, adjusting its orientation as necessary, without losing the forward thrust given off by the main engine.
A second problem was found after the installation of the MTS. The extreme Gs pulled when executing quick turns in the Firestorm lead to internal trauma in the pilot. After our 5 pilot death due to extreme Gs, it was determined that a solution needed to be implemented. Therefore, science department began work and implementation of a Motion-Dampening Field. Using the basic ideas behind UFO propulsion, it was determined that gravity could be manipulated within the cockpit. Small deposits of Elerium 115 surround the cockpit of the Firestorm, each connected to the central power system of the craft. The flow of energy through the deposits creates a reaction that warps Newtonian laws, negating gravity within the cockpit. In this weightless environment, the pilot of the Firestorm can execute a variety of death-defying loops and turns with no additional G Forces pulled. Injury and stress to the pilot are completely eliminated, allowing him to function at optimum capacity. Further research into the area of Applied Gravity Field Warping could prove fruitful.

Once again, critique is helpful. Please post your thoughts and suggestions.
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#8 Cpt. Boxershorts

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 11:10 AM

How do you attach the grips to a frictionless surface? :blink:

Seriously though, I like the write up....especially the G-Force work-around.
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#9 Deimos

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 12:10 PM

Firstly I have to say Denevine, that is some really impressive work. I really like the fact that you've taken the forum material as a reference source and utilised it in your writeup. You're an example of how some other people should be writing CTD material, Top marks.

Now if I may, some feedback. Keep the alien alloy as a frictionless material or as fritionless as can be. Say it has a 99.97% frictionless surface on one side and the other is a rough surface. Or maybe its frictionless in one direction and rough in the other (Like sharkskin to take another design cue from nature. This would go someway to explain the iridium sheen effect as well.)

There are some materials we have now like PolyTetraFluroEthelyne of PTFE which is just about the most frictionless material around so stretching the envelope further and saying that alien alloys are selectively frictionless wouldn't be too hard. The reasoning behind this is that we had discussed the material properties and the bottom line was that to include the 'iridium sheen' the material wouldn't be able to be painted over, hence the frictionless surface quality. We came up with the 'science' to back up the effect. :D

#10 GreatGold

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Posted 20 June 2003 - 01:54 PM

Arrgh! Another rewrite!


Oh come on! Thats the FUN part :devillaugh: !!

Great work you two, keep the "gripes" going, and we can have both Alien Alloys and Firestorm perhaps completed.

That would be a HUGE benchmark, in my humble opinion.

Qreat work!
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#11 Denevive

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 02:40 PM

Okay all-

With a few basic revisions, here is what I'm figuring will be a final draft. However, if you have comments or critique please feel free to post it. I will make changes as neesecary, but in the mean time I hope to begin work on another entry. Anyway, here it is for all to see.


Firestorm Interceptor

As the war with the alien menace continues, it has become apparent that our standard interceptors are unable to cope with the increasing size and frequency of alien vessels. This has led to the research and implementation of a new form of interceptor craft.

After the research of Alien Alloys was completed, it was obvious that Xenocide, like it’s alien adversaries, could use this amazing amalgamation of materials in its craft’s design. Due to the possible ‘zero friction’ properties of Alien Alloys when utilized correctly, a new interceptor craft could be designed that would maximize the use of thrust, and create a craft capable of achieving speeds in excess of any current earth-based craft. Other alien technologies, such as Elerium 115 and UFO propulsion systems, were also determined to be of use in this project.

The Firestorm has been created using the alien ‘saucer’ design as a basis for construction. The Firestorm is powered by a central Elerium 115 based reaction chamber. During the reaction process, power is sent throughout the chassis of the interceptor, while waste particles and exhaust are vented into the engines. These reactive particles are mixed with highly pressurized jet fuel to create an extremely combustible and powerful propellant. The triangular chassis of the Firestorm is created by using lightweight aluminum-titanium alloys as a base with the more precious Alien Alloys affixed to the skin of the craft in rough ‘plates’. These plates cover approximately 95% of the interceptor, thus reducing friction with the air, allowing the Firestorm to reach the high speeds necessary in a new interceptor craft.

The shape of the Firestorm is reminiscent of failed ‘flying wing’ designs, used as a basis for air force concepts in the late 1950s. Use of the Alien Alloys, as well as the thrust of the Elerium-jet fuel reaction allows the Firestorm to succeed where initial delta wing designs failed. Use of the Alien alloys in chassis and armor construction also prove the Firestorm to be a much more robust craft than current interceptors, taking a considerable amount more damage before destruction. Much of this can be attributed to the damage dispersion properties of the Alien Alloy plates. Similar to the chainmail of ancient warfare, the armor of the Firestorm disperses impact, heat, and electrical energy along the length of the craft.

The Firestorm Interceptor is equipped with two forward weapon mounts situated to the left and right of the cockpit and unlike the XC-1 Interceptor, the Firestorm was built with the increased power needs of new weapons in mind. A pilot will find the weapon power meter situated on lower right of his HUD, giving an accurate and constant representation of the flow of energy to his forward mounted weapons systems. These hard points are suitable for any craft based weapon, although Plasma weapons prove to be well suited for use with the Firestorm. The extreme heat put off by Plasma weapons cooling systems (see X-Net entry ‘Plasma Cannon’) is easily dissipated throughout the hull of the craft. Plasma weapons can be fired with a slower recharge time, and less worry for overheating due to the heat dissipation properties of the Alien Alloys used in the construction of the Firestorm. Other weapon systems also grow in effectiveness when coupled with the fast and maneuverable Firestorm. (For further information please see the ‘Craft Armament’ section of the X-Net Database.)
Due to our relative inexperience when working with Elerium based fuel systems, and our very basic understanding of its power giving reactions, the Firestorm is unable to stay aloft for long periods of time. While the Elerium-jet fuel propulsion system allows for unheard of speeds in an earthborn craft, fuel consumption is extremely high. As such, it should be used as a quick and decisive strike against an enemy UFO, and not as a long-range reconnaissance craft.

In laboratory field tests, the Firestorm has performed well, but a few problems were found during initial flight procedures. Besides the fuel consumption rate of the engine, the maneuverability of the craft was far less than was needed for a new interceptor design. It seems that at the speeds reached by the Firestorm, it was unable to compensate for the quick turns and ‘jerks’ so common when chasing a UFO. This flaw was rectified by installing a intricate thruster system across the hull of the craft. The main engine applies forward thrust, while smaller ‘micro thrusters’ adjust the orientation of the craft. The micro thrusters are operated using a variant of the AlphaWave neural command system used in our Heavy Weapon Platforms. Using speed-of-thought commands, the Pilot can effortlessly use the MTS or Maneuvering Thrust System to slide the Firestorm smoothly in any direction, adjusting its orientation as necessary, without losing the forward thrust given off by the main engine.

A second problem was found after the installation of the MTS. The extreme Gs pulled when executing quick turns in the Firestorm lead to internal trauma in the pilot. After our 5th pilot death due to extreme Gs, it was determined that a solution needed to be implemented. Therefore, science department began work and implementation of a Motion-Dampening Field. Using the basic ideas behind UFO propulsion, it was determined that gravity could be manipulated within the cockpit. Small deposits of Elerium 115 surround the cockpit of the Firestorm, each connected to the central power system of the craft. The flow of energy through the deposits creates a reaction that warps Newtonian laws, negating gravity within the cockpit. In this weightless environment, the pilot of the Firestorm can execute a variety of death-defying loops and turns with no additional G Forces pulled. Injury and stress to the pilot are completely eliminated, allowing him to function at optimum capacity. Further research into the area of Applied Gravity Field Warping could prove fruitful.

With the installation of the MTS and Motion-Dampening Field, the Firestorm’s usefulness as an interceptor craft became undeniable. It is the recommendation of the science department that Firestorms be put into production as soon as possible.

:D Okay, what do you all think?
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#12 mikker

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 02:40 PM

I have posted something simmilar another place also, but;

"These hard points are suitable for any craft based weapon, although Plasma weapons prove to be well suited for use with the Firestorm. The extreme heat put off by Plasma weapons cooling systems (see X-Net entry ‘Plasma Cannon’) is easily dissipated..."


Who knows? you might not have started on plasma weaponry at all!

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#13 GreatGold

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 03:18 PM

Hey -

CONGRATS to Denivive! I will be posting this entry to the asset page as COMPLETED. However, if neeed later, changes will of courwse be allowed :D . And if Denivive wants to add or make changes, he has permission as well, without question.

Great work to everyone involved!
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#14 Denevive

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Posted 21 June 2003 - 04:00 PM

Good point on the plasma entry bit. I've gone ahead and changed it from Plasma weapons to "energy and heat-based weaponry". That version has then been sent as a final draft. :D

Any other comments?
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#15 Fred the Goat

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 04:25 PM

Alright, I have some depressing critique. It's mainly about the extreme Gs paragraph, so I'll start there. Just by way of aesthetic critique, I personally (you can do what you want) would take out any reference to "Gs," extreme or otherwise, including the pulling thereof. It just sounds like a geek is trying to talk like a fighter pilot in a science paper. No offense, I consider myself a pretty hopeless geek, too, or else I wouldn't be here :D I'm just saying what it sounds like. The other thing about the Gs is that pulling them has absolutely nothing to do with gravity. It's centrifugal/centripetal force (I never remember which is which). This, you simply can't eliminate. You might be able to warp space, but that's truly wierd science, and I'm not sure if that could even eliminate G forces, and anyway if the aliens can warp space, they don't need plasma rifles. I say pretend the pilots can just cope, or biologically manipulate them, or just say it's remote controlled. I'd go for the former. Don't mention it. No one will notice, I promise.

Last, I'd like to mention alien alloys. Deimos, I'm afraid the Iridium sheen is a lost cause. As for making alloys frictionless, shouldn't we just be able to say that one layer of the alloys is frictionless? We could modify the original alloy design, so that the outer layer on ships is different from that on equipment. Maybe the plastic layer is frictionless, and ships have one extra layer of plastic. Or maybe the metal layer becomes frictionless at high speeds at high altitudes due to low pressure/temperature, which is why the aliens fly so high. I dunno.

EDIT

By the way, awesome description! Sorry I'm critical...it's my way. :rolleyes: I'm such an @ss.

#16 Micah

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 07:26 PM

I think Fred has a good point about the "G Forces pulled," thought it is unfortunate he could not even offer a suggestion for a replacement. Off the top of my head, you could substitute the phrase with something like this:

extreme acceleration
excessive increase in speed

and this: "death-defying loops and turns with no additional G Forces pulled" might be changed to "death-defying loops and turns with no significant (or lethal??) changes in acceleration experienced by the pilot."

These are just some ideas, and if no one likes them, the entry as Denevive has composed it still sounds very good to me. Keep it up guys!

However, I must strongly disagree with Fred's assessment of the iridium sheen situation. How is it a lost cause? What make it any more difficult to work with than your plastics or whatever ideas? You don't have to model the thing or prove it based on today's scientific logic, you only have to scrape up a story that explains it.

#17 Deimos

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 07:45 PM

Last, I'd like to mention alien alloys.  Deimos, I'm afraid the Iridium sheen is a lost cause.

Pilots are highly mathematical people and would understand what a scientist was on about when talking about pulling high G's. Though some players might not :P If it's any help, when I first left school I worked at a theme park with some rollercoasters that would pull 3-4G and it always impressed the heck out of people when we told them to hold on to their lunches because the ride pulls 4G. They might not have known what 4G was or understood the math behind it but it sounded impressive and that's all they cared about :D

So if we go talking about extreme G's, our target audience might not know the science behind it but it does sound impressive. Anything 'Extreme' is a good thing tm look at extreme sports. Some of them will goe the people involved killed, danger is good it gets the adrenaline flowing. So reading about aircraft pulling extreme G's should sound pretty exciting to the reader.

Now for the science bit... :D

Lowering the effects of gravity in the cockpit would have the following effects. The pilot will weigh less. The instrumentation will weigh less the craft will weigh less. Less mass to shift around means that it is easier to move. Good thing tm :)

An F16 can pull a sustained +10G turn (even more with the vectored thrust nozzles). I don't know off hand what the combat weight of a loaded F16 is (I don't have my Jane's aircraft guide to hand) but if it weighed half the amount due to a gavity dampener or whatever you want to call it, it would take half the energy to make the same 10G turn. If the cockpit had gravity dampeners in place the the pilot would weigh half the amount so that 10g turn that would normally have him browning, whiting or blacking out (depending on what kind of maneuver positive or negative) would only feel like a 5g turn becuase he weighs half the amount he should.

Now say the airframe is rated for a sustained 20g turn (not too far in the realm of scifi) like the lightining might be capable of. Pilots are trained to make 10g turns. Now if this gravity dampener, reducer whatever was in place to reduce the weight inside the craft not by half but say to make it a quarter of the weight it should be, the pilot will be able to make a 20g turn without too much trouble. So I think that Denevine's description is about bang on the mark.

Now onto this iridium sheen. A fair amount (if not all) of the senior team want the sheen included, so please check with the senior team before making statements like that. We've put a considerable amount of energy into getting the iridium sheen to work. So it isn't cool to say its a lost cause, you could upset someone that's put a lot of research and work into the idea and that wouldn't help the project.

#18 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 08:27 PM

Why is it a lost cause ne way? The stuff I have seen of irridum sheen looks original (might not be, but I've never seen it in a game I don't think) and it looks DAMN good in star wars II.

#19 Cpt. Boxershorts

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Posted 22 June 2003 - 10:01 PM

I think the iridium sheen looks great on the models I've seen. It's even in the alien alloy text, although its called 'oily' rather than 'iridium'. See the alloy thread for details.

Speaking of alloys, the frictionless bit was just added...it's on the outside of the outer layer only.

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#20 GreatGold

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 09:04 AM

Hehe -

Lets not all jump on th Fred! Make :wub: not :argue: ! In anycase, I do agree that the iridium sheen is a must, but I also value Fred's opinion on it. Hehe, unfortuantely, I think Fred loses this one :wink: .

Also, I have been involved in flight sims forever, including the continual development of Falcon4. A side note here, I think everyone should check out Project Pheonix at www.frugalsworld.com. Back to the point now.

Deimos post hit the nail on the head in terms of his "scientific assessment". The one thing that I want to add to this, is the idea of relative mass at great speeds. We all know that when you go fast, like REALLY fast, you become more massive. This could decrease the effectiveness of the Firestorms 1st generation dampeners, and be an interesting to think about for the Avenger entry.

I was specifically thinking, it could lead to an unsolved mystery for humans about aliens... along the lines of "how the heck does the Battleship go so fast, when our dampeners can barely work on a ship a 1/64th the size?!".

I've gone on a tangent, but I think it would be something worth at least mentioning, as it WILL be included in future entries to a greater degree.

And I also like the idea that goes like this, "if it isn't scientifically doable, but seems really cool, we'll just bloody MAKE it scientifially doable!" We can only keep realism itself to a point, and then spread out into fantasy. Of course, we can always make the fantasy seem realstic :D .

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#21 Kha Khan

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 08:05 PM

Wow! What an eyefull!!

First things first: GREAT JOB DENEVIVE! I can see you've put a great amount of thought and effort into the background of the Firestorm, and the description thereof is nearly flawless (I say 'nearly' because I spotted a few grammatical errors, but with your input {"another re-write!!!"} that is a given, and proofreaders will correct those later :D )

Secondly, I agree totally with Deimos regarding the awe inspired in the minds of non-pilot, non-physicist laymen (such as myself) when terms like "extreme G-forces" are used... it makes the roller-coaster, or, in our case, the FIRESTORM, sound pretty damn spiffy... which brings me to my next point:

While I understand that the technical coherence of the various craft, HWP's, and even hand-held weapons (like the frictionless grip :LOL: ) need a logical tie-in, are discussions and re-discussions of the various effects of "real" gravity-dampeners/inertia/centrepital/centrifigal forces adding anything to the progress of the storyline? What I mean is, is there a "grey area" where these forces are assumed to function (i.e., "fiction/fantasy",) or must we establish pseudo-scientific laws, and adhere to them?

Lastly, I read the Firestorm description (all 3 drafts) with increasing admiration not only for Denevive's imagination and writing skill, but also the way the various suggestions and critiques were put forward AND INTEGRATED... my only question is this:
Assuming this Firestorm draft is intended for use as reference material for the CTD in other craft descriptions, how are we gonna get Denevive to condense/dissect it into
A) a techno framework for other craft, and
B) An interesting UFOpaedia entry that won't take so long to read that the bugs locate and invade all my bases :D :D :D ?
(apparently, two separate rewrites :happybanana: )

p.s. Irridium Sheen? I'm not EVEN gonna go there... :blink:

#22 GreatGold

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 08:28 PM

Hey -

I think its better to have long write-ups. For hose that want to read them and be immersed, they are there. For those that only want the hard facts, such as statistics, they will also be the first thing seen at the top of the entry.

So it's basically up to the player, and I think its best they have the choice to choose immersion or let it go.

To answer your other question, the vast majority of the entries have/will have cross referencing within them. The X-Net is a database after all. Think of the cross-link as a hypertext url.

And of course, your correct :D A big hand to Denivive, and everyone else who made suggestions, edits, and worked as a team to put this together!

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#23 Denevive

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Posted 23 June 2003 - 11:42 PM

Just a comment-

For those who would like a smaller X-Net entry, I will mention that my first (and now I see very rough draft was quite a bit shorter. Originally I just tried to touch on the basics of the Firestorm. It was then that I truly became aware of the interest and dedication of this development team. :D I was often asked to add and clarify, creating a result that I think was well worth the input. If at some later date, I am needed to break this entry down to a smaller size, I will do so. But until then, I think that everyone is interested in a longer, more scientific reason for the function of these technologies.

Also, I would be happy to work with anyone who might be interested in working on another human/alien craft entry. I am currently working on the Elerium 115 entry, but hope to tackle the Lightning or Avenger after that.

Just a heads up, but if it reaches a general consensus, I will be happy to write a smaller entry, with the longer entry after it.

Maybe there's a small button at the bottom of the X-Net entry that reads:

"Would you like to know more?"

Kudos to any who get the reference. :D
(Though the book was better! :cussing: )
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#24 Kha Khan

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Posted 26 June 2003 - 10:29 PM

A heading on the document listing the stats, along with some concept art (I've peaked at some prototypes in this project's art department, and they are awesome :rock: ) would satisfy those in a hurry, and I agree, after considering Gold's post that longer entries add to the immersion in the game. I just wonder if all the writers are getting the same take on the technology stuff?

There is a lot of discussion on how the various craft, weapons, etc. function, and I wonder if there is a SET framework-- I'm no mechanic, but I understand enough about the internal-combustion engine to describe a race-car <-that's real-world technology, common to all-> but different writers may come up with incompatible descriptions/entries if there is no commonly understood technological base.

In other words, is it enough to say something like "Having established the principles by which the alien's plasma weapons functioned (see X-Net 'Plasma Weapon') Xenocide project engineers determined to adapt this technology to arming interceptor craft with more formidable offensive capabilties. The result was the plasma cannon, which...(blah blah blah) --- the blah being a description of energy requirements, damage capabilities, etc, without going into the minutiae of it's design?

Again, I agree that a long description immerses the player (if they choose) into the game, I just want to avoid incongruities developing from different interpretations of the fine "nuts-and-bolts."

OR, is there someone co-ordinating all this speculative science? I'm not trying to be a pain, really :rolleyes:

#25 GreatGold

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 01:55 AM

Hey -

Yes, everything is being correlated. Once everything is in a more final form, the smaller detailed corrections will be made to insure that everything fits together. It would be quite the slip-up to have a Plasma Rifle and a Plasma Pistol working under two fundamentally different concepts...

At the moment, I am doing my best to talk to authors about every single draft and entry, and keep everyone on the same playing field. It is inevitable that I will miss something here and there, as will the authors, but that will be caught and fixed during the Alpha and Beta releases, long before anything goes Gold.

Have no fear!
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#26 Nickisimo

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 05:50 AM

Yeah, from what I've seen Gold and Bruenor have been doing a really good job of making sure that we keep things sensical. Hopefully we can all come up with something for laser and plasma junk that we can all live with. :happybanana:

#27 GreatGold

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 10:06 AM

Hey -

Yes, we will get som real good stuff for theose two entries. As it is, its ony a matter of time and some editing.

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#28 Kha Khan

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Posted 27 June 2003 - 09:51 PM

Excellent!!! Thanks for clearing that up for me :beer:! Now I can go find somewhere to contribute without feeling like I'm crashing about like a bull in a science lab :happybanana:

(If I can only figure out how to submit text.... :blink: )

:D

#29 dipstick

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 01:54 PM

Right, my X-Net article sort of fades in comparison to the mammoth piece that has been written here. I never got far enough on the original to produce Firestorms; now I know what they were! :D
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#30 GreatGold

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Posted 28 June 2003 - 06:27 PM

Woops -

Completely useless post, didnt go through all the other new threads first.. DOH!

Gold

Edited by GreatGold, 28 June 2003 - 06:29 PM.

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#31 Fred the Goat

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 02:35 AM

Hmmmm...blasted connection failure. Out for a week, and I'm left in the dust.

Okay, as for the Iridium Sheen jibe, I'd like to say in my defense that I was suggesting that it sounded like the Iridium Sheen idea was one supported solely by Deimos, and ignored by everyone else. I only came to that conclusion because whenever I saw him put it forth, I saw everybody else just kind of ignore his remark, in this and in the alien alloys threads. It appears that's a false impression, but I assure you I wasn't trying to kill the Iridium Sheen idea, just under the impression it was already dead. :huh:

AS FOR GRAVITY...(sigh). Why must Deimos and I always be at odds? <_< Ble. Doesn't matter. Here's the thing. Yes, reducing gravity reduces your Earthward pull. Yes, the "Gs" "pulled" when making tight turns is a similar pull. HOWEVER - and you can ask any student of hard science - negating gravity negates weight, NOT your actual mass. Therefore, negating gravity does not affect the "G-forces" when doing those cool aerial loops or zipping around a roller coaster. That's an independent force, due to changing a body's direction of motion, and that body's inherent mass. Your mass is the same in space as it is on the moon or earth. It's your weight that changes. And weight has nothing to do with centripetal force. Think of the Ringworld, ya geeks. :P Why do your feet stay on the ground when you're standing on the Ringworld? The sun's gravity pulls you UP, and the ring's gravity is negligible. Yet you stay down. Centripetal force (I think it's centripetal, not centrifugal) pulls you down because of your mass, even though your weight is pulling you up. THAT said, yeah, you could keep the gravity-negating=G-force-negating stuff in, and most people wouldn't bat an eyelash. It's up to you.

#32 Denevive

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 03:07 AM

Well, I don't mean to sound argumentative, but having some experience in hard science myself, I have to disagree with your assesment. When speaking of G forces, one "G" is equal to one gravity, or the effect of earth's gravity on an object. Multiple G forces, or "Gs" are multiple gravities. Hence, 2 G forces (or two Gs) is the pull of 2 times Earth's gravity. G forces on a pilot can be exteremly stressful to their bodily systems, as they often pull the equal of 10+ times of earth's gravity. Negating newtonian laws in the cockpit would have the effect of negating G forces. Now I'm not talking about momentum, though one could claim that that newtonian law is negated as well (Elerium 115... it's weird stuff).
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#33 GreatGold

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 05:38 AM

only came to that conclusion because whenever I saw him put it forth, I saw everybody else just kind of ignore his remark


LOL - Don't worry, its just that we've all heard it so many times we no longer feel the need to comment :D .

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#34 Fred the Goat

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Posted 03 July 2003 - 09:14 PM

Hehe...well, ok. Iridium sheen it is. I guess now I know what happens when you assume.

Anyway...gravity. Yeah. Well, we're prolly not going to get anywhere without asking Dr. Science, but just for the heck of it I'll try again. One G is, in fact, equal to the acceleration with which any object is moved toward the center of the Earth. This is 9.8 meters per second per second. Gs are like Atmospheres. You can experience 3 atmospheres underwater (under 20 meters of water, to be exact). But if you had a device that eliminated air pressure, it wouldn't allow you to go to the bottom of the ocean. Similarly, one "G" can be applied by your hand to a car door. It's just most commonly used in reference to the feeling pilots get in their stomachs. Think of it this way. You spin a ball on a string. It pulls on your hand. You go out in space, where there's no gravity, and do it again. It still pulls on your hand. You take a gravity-negating spaceship out into space. Where there's no gravity, anyway. You do the loop-the-loops you kids like to do with your music and your Zima, and you still get the Gs. That's momentum for you. That said, yeah, we can always make Elerium negate momentum. I dunno. Like I said before, the ethereals don't need plasma rifles if they can negate the most basic newtonian laws. Personally, I prefer saying that hairpin turns and unearthly acceleration just gives the pilots one helluva rush.

[EDIT]

I would say that negating gravity isn't as bad as negating one of the three Newtonian Laws (note the capitals). But, once again, this stuff is really all just a geekwar. I have my scientific background, you have yours. Who the heck cares? Tell the average gamer that they flew to mars on space dust and fairy farts, and they'll be happy to just get there and shoot the martians.

Edited by Fred the Goat, 03 July 2003 - 09:20 PM.


#35 Deimos

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 07:01 PM

Okay, as for the Iridium Sheen jibe, I'd like to say in my defense that I was suggesting that it sounded like the Iridium Sheen idea was one supported solely by Deimos, and ignored by everyone else.  I only came to that conclusion because whenever I saw him put it forth, I saw everybody else just kind of ignore his remark, in this and in the alien alloys threads.  It appears that's a false impression, but I assure you I wasn't trying to kill the Iridium Sheen idea, just under the impression it was already dead.  :huh:

AS FOR GRAVITY...(sigh).  Why must Deimos and I always be at odds?  <_<  Ble.  Doesn't matter.

Hey Fred,

The iridium sheen was actually originally suggested by Maverick. I've just carried the torch for it :)

Yeah it did look like it was being ignored but the same goes for a lot of topics. Trust me when I say the senior team haven't forgotten about anything :)

The problem with gettting everyone to accept the idea is that it has to be rammed down people's throats, most of the team aren't so much ignoring it as not putting forth any new posts to it. If you read the iridium sheen thread where it detail exactly what it is there are a lot of positive comments and some confusion as to how the effect works. I am currently engaging my resorces in getting a small video clip of it in action. Once people see it in motion the excitement factor will be huge. Trust me, I'm a professional :)

I'm not sure why you think we're at odds. I'm just presenting stuff to keep you on your toes :D Remember as lead artist I have to make sure that the all the art and design side fits in together. Its just a differing point of view, I'm looking at the game from a designer's point of view so any posts I make that sound critical, don't take it personally (same goes for everyone) :) I'm looking at it from the big picture point of view rather than conentrating on the minutae.

#36 Fred the Goat

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 01:06 AM

Aw, c'mere ya big flying suited lug. :D Alright, I'm excited about the Iridium Sheen video clip. Share!

[EDIT]

Dammit, I started a new page with a minor comment again. I hate it when this happens.

Edited by Fred the Goat, 06 July 2003 - 01:07 AM.


#37 c4t

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 11:52 AM

sorry if this is a bit off topic, but when i was playing xcom i always enjoyed the explanations and was often sad when they ended. i think yours should be added as a whole in there.
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#38 mikker

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 12:20 PM

just click on the button called ufopedia. It shows all of them


offtopic: you know c4t, you are 2 days older then me :wave:

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#39 Deimos

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Posted 06 July 2003 - 05:27 PM

Aw, c'mere ya big flying suited lug.  :D  Alright, I'm excited about the Iridium Sheen video clip.  Share!

[EDIT]

Dammit, I started a new page with a minor comment again.  I hate it when this happens.

:D I got this picture of your avatar giving my avatar a noogie when you wrote that.

I'm hunting down the clip as we speak. At the minimum it'll be a few frames screen grab from a video, at the max it'll be me taking a video camera to car dealer and getting some gooood footage. Here's hoping the TVR dealer doesn't look at me too strangely. :)

#40 tzuchan

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Posted 29 July 2003 - 10:08 PM

Okay, somebody mentioned that the g-forces pulled by a fighter pilot is actually momentum, and that you can't simply negate inertia with gravity. But I think we are forgeting that gravity CAN affect momentum, and that the main reason that g-forces affect pilots as much as they do is because of the liquids inside a human body. Try spinning a raw egg and compare it with spinning a hard boiled egg and you'll see what I mean.

If we applied a directed gravity field inside the cockpit to make him "fall" in the same direction as the changes in momentum, I think it'd be possible to negate all, if not most, of the g-forces a pilot would otherwise feel. It might be a better idea not to negate all of the effects of inertia as humans do need that force feedback inorder to work at thier max ability.
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#41 Fred the Goat

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Posted 30 July 2003 - 11:36 AM

Oi! Of course! :idea: I'm sorry, I've been stubborn. Yeah, ok, while you can't negate inertia by making a gravity-less field, you can do it by creating a gravity field that counters the inertia of the craft. Elerium can negate inertia...that is, as long as elerium can not only create a gravity-less field, but can also create a directed-gravity field. Hmm. But, yeah, I'm pretty sure you could make that work.

Sorry, I'm an @ss. :spank:

#42 Ancalagon

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Posted 13 August 2003 - 03:13 AM

You might want to mention the stealth capabilities of the firestorm, and the fact that the G-force innovations in the XC-1 were not enough to compensate for the tremendous g-forces.

#43 Fred the Goat

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Posted 14 August 2003 - 12:27 PM

Actually, now that I think about it, this is an interesting issue. If you're able to stop the pilot from being pushed into their seat while they zip around, you also have to stop their guts from being pushed into their back, and their brain from being pushed into their skull. Of course, you can do that with a gravity field, but what exactly does that do to a person? Might be something to consider for the text, actually. Having all of your molecules held in place so your body doesn't squish itself while your momentum changes radically might give you a kinda goofy feeling...it might make you pass out, or give you a seizure, too. Hmm...

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#44 FireHawk

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Posted 17 August 2003 - 08:34 AM

I brought this problem up for the normal Human Tech Interceptor.
As it stands a few planes today have their turn and roll rates limited so the pilot inside isnt hurt.

Its no longer what a machine can do..but what the human inside it can handle. Same with tanks nowdays...its much easier just hitting a tank with a big enouth blast all soft targets inside are killed then actually trying to penetrate the tanks armor.

Having remote craft allow for it to be hacked...so unless you have good AI in the craft you need a human inside it.

It should be invented that humans descover inertia dampeners(fields)

While we dont understand them very well we can use them.

This would also explain why we could understand the aliens E-115 so quickly...its doing what were already know "SHOULD" be possible and been trying to do ourselves. Infact the XC-1 could use a prototype dampener field.

Gravity also travels at light speed...so you cant use it as a dampener...if it was instant you could because then it could keep the pilots atoms acclerating ETC together rather then at diffrent speeds and bsaicly tearing him apart.

Actually I think the entire subject deserves its own thread.

#45 Fred the Goat

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Posted 10 October 2003 - 10:20 PM

Well, actually dampening doesn't have to slow down atom vibration, it just has to apply force in the opposite direction as the momentum of the craft.

I'm so contrarian. :D

#46 tzuchan

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 05:11 AM

Gravity also travels at light speed...so you cant use it as a dampener...if it was instant you could because then it could keep the pilots atoms acclerating ETC together rather then at diffrent speeds and bsaicly tearing him apart.


Err... Unless you DO have a craft capable of travelling at the speed of light(or close enought to actually matter), speed of light is instantaeous enough for me, especially considering the relativly minute distance from the emitters to the pilot...

Well, actually dampening doesn't have to slow down atom vibration, it just has to apply force in the opposite direction as the momentum of the craft


You wouldn't want to slow down atom vibration either... unless you intend to make pilot popsicle....

Edited by tzuchan, 03 December 2003 - 05:14 AM.

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#47 Cartesian

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Posted 03 December 2003 - 06:24 AM

i think i might have covered some of these points in the xenium thhread.

"When placed in a rotating magnetic field it generates an as yet unidentified field which counteracts the force of gravity exactly as if it was warping spacetime.

The field and matter contained inside can then be accelerated with respect to an outside observer almost arbitrarily while an inside observer feels absolutely no acceleration. This can be achieved by altering the strength and inhomogeneities of the magnetic field.

Naturally the possibilities for flight were first and foremost on the research team minds when this discovery was made. Finally the secret of the Alien's flight was known."

I just figure this explainantion naturally allows one to have cool UFO/avengers zipping around like crazy without pureeing the pilots. It also provide a power source and antigravity.

#48 Foozball

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Posted 08 February 2004 - 09:29 AM

I hate to blow the dust off of a really old topic here, but Facehugger brought up a really good point about the Lightning CT: the need for a little blurb right at the top about the craft's capabilities. Somthing the Firestorm CT is missing.
...Well? Should I have even brought this up? :sly:
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#49 tzuchan

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Posted 08 February 2004 - 11:08 PM

Almost every single CTD before Jan has more or less the same problem...
Unfortunately, the Scared Firestorm CTD's writer is currently missing and nobody else dares to touch his Scared CTD text.... yet....
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#50 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 09 February 2004 - 01:58 PM

Before December. :)
I'm only partially inactive. :P I can still be reached at cpl.facehugger@gmail.com, and via PM. Preferably the former.

*Coming back? Avast! Facehugger, finish your assignments!*

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