Xcom3 Vs. Ufo:ai

[Aiki-Knight]

Have you heard of UFO: Alien Invasion?

 

I just finished a couple hours of playing. I don't even know where to start. It's a turn-based version of XCOM, although not in name. And it is SO good. It addresses so many of the things we talk about improving in X3. Let me showcase the highlights here:

 

- Quake 2 level graphics. It looks GREAT. Still that top-down view, rotatable, zommable map.

- The maps actually vary by geographic region and vary within regions. No same-old map routine.

- Agents wear realistic uniforms and use realistic-looking current weapons.

- Terror missions are back, killing civilians, and at night

 

The game goes back to the whole Geoscape concept, building bases around the world, building radars, and in this sense, is in the spirit of X1. Base-building also supports air-defence weapons a la X1, but I have to say that this game is also a spiritual successor to XCOM3 in that it removes all those cartoonish silver-and-red suits of armor, cartoon aliens, buildings, and civilians. The agents wear kevlar vests and helmets, with IR night-vision goggles, selectable camoflage schemes (choose urban-blue, arctic, desert, and woodland) for your intended mission. These agents LOOK like special forces, and that really rocks. Seeing those troops stacking doors and looking authentic adds SO much to the game.

 

I enjoy the way the urban settings have been retroed back to our time, and how different geographies bring different cultures with them. I remember playing one mission in Japan, where the buildings look Japanese, and there's even an old-fashioned karate/bujutsu dojo, complete with naginata and katana displayed on the walls. I also like the way it improves upon the fighting in built-up areas in X3, as this game incorporates flash-bangs, which produce a loud bang & flash, which allows you to storm rooms without killing everyone. You can take out the bad guys and not frag the civvies.

 

I'd been moping around because I finally had to update to a Windows XP computer, and I'd been missing X3, but I think a good discussion of how the game proceeds from the actual XCOM franchise would really be entertaining. Of course, I can only imagine what Xenocide will be like. I know little about it, but I believe j'ordos is working on the project. Enough said. Honestly, we diehards have been waiting so long, and suffering so much, as we have dreamed of an updated XCOM, and this one is definitely an updated one. Treat yourself to some fun and download the latest version while we wait for Xenocide. And then let the comments begin.

[[dteviot]]

Of course, I can only imagine what Xenocide will be like. I know little about it, but I believe j'ordos is working on the project.

Well, if you want to see how Xenocide is going, the web page http://www.projectxenocide.com/

has a couple of links that may be useful:

• There's a progress video (about 6 months old) here. Note, that should be updated, Darkhomb made a newer one about 2 weeks ago.
  
• A demo build of the code thats 3 months old.
  

Or, you could just download and build the XNA code. Instructions are here: http://docs.projectxenocide.com/index.php/...QuickStartGuide (Unlike the old C++ code base, it really is quick and easy to build Xenocide.)

 

That said, I find myself wondering (again) if the smart thing to do would be for me to leave Xenocide, and go add my efforts to UFO:AI. At the current time, I feel like I'm almost the only person working on Xenocide. Yes, I know that's not true. There's CTD. And Darkhomb is doing what he can, and there's a couple of others (StaffSargeant, Geerzo) who chip in with code from time to time. But we have no 3D artists, or at least I haven't seen any for some time, and we're getting to the point where I'm probably going to need them.

Edited January 30, 2008 by dteviot

[Guest Azrael Strife]

Of course, I can only imagine what Xenocide will be like. I know little about it, but I believe j'ordos is working on the project.

Well, if you want to see how Xenocide is going, the web page http://www.projectxenocide.com/

has a couple of links that may be useful:

• There's a progress video (about 6 months old) here. Note, that should be updated, Darkhomb made a newer one about 2 weeks ago.
  
• A demo build of the code thats 3 months old.
  

Or, you could just download and build the XNA code. Instructions are here: http://docs.projectxenocide.com/index.php/...QuickStartGuide (Unlike the old C++ code base, it really is quick and easy to build Xenocide.)

 

That said, I find myself wondering (again) if the smart thing to do would be for me to leave Xenocide, and go add my efforts to UFO:AI. At the current time, I feel like I'm almost the only person working on Xenocide. Yes, I know that's not true. There's CTD. And Darkhomb is doing what he can, and there's a couple of others (StaffSargeant, Geerzo) who chip in with code from time to time. But we have no 3D artists, or at least I haven't seen any for some time, and we're getting to the point where I'm probably going to need them.

 

I understand completely what you're feeling I know for a fact that if you left, you would certainly not be the first one to leave for that reason. I once made a topic about it a while back ago the reaction was as expected from the "leadership" and promptly ignored, heck, the SND doesn't even have a leader! (and yes, there WERE people available to act as temporary leader).

Have you seen UFO: Cydonia's Fall? as much as I used to love PX, all I can say is that any dev team would be incredibly lucky to have you on their ranks, you've single handedly done for PX what the old leaders couldn't do in over 3 years (and this is not completely related to XNA, you had managed to make things move again on your own back on the C++ codebase).

With you with them, I'm sure UFO: AI would make enormous progress and would ultimately result in the X-Com remake we're all hoping for

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

If you guys are really so short handed on models, why not just link me up some form of modelling program which is both easy to use and can save in the manner you want.

 

Also, PodTech was supposed to join that team, but sadly he went a little funky and didnt feel all that welcomed by Azrael

Ill admit Pod isnt the most sane or confident one out there, but he does have alot of free time on his hands and some ability to model.

[Guest Azrael Strife]

If you guys are really so short handed on models, why not just link me up some form of modelling program which is both easy to use and can save in the manner you want.

 

Also, PodTech was supposed to join that team, but sadly he went a little funky and didnt feel all that welcomed by Azrael

Ill admit Pod isnt the most sane or confident one out there, but he does have alot of free time on his hands and some ability to model.

If it was THAT easy, we'd be swamping with models.

If you're interested in learning 3d modelling, I suggest you get Blender3d and read upon the tutorials, but beware it requires study to learn to use properly.

[Aiki-Knight]

Hey Everyone,

 

I honestly don't know anything the inner workings of each game. All I know is that XCOM isn't just a game - it's a CULTURE. It's this one game that really has captured so many imaginations, a game whose premise strikes such a chord with more than just our need to pass the time, but with our psychological underpinnings, our fears, our perceptions of society and the human condition. What would the world do if faced with an external threat? How would that generate lasting social change?

 

So I don't think it matters which re-make gets made. What matters is that SOME remake gets made. A good one, one that revives and re-vitalizes the old XCOM as we know and love it. Something that re-invents that grave and captivating situation: ruthless aliens have landed in a town, and they're killing people. Special forces rush to the scene. Take out the aliens before they ravage the civilian population. And don't get killed in the process.

 

Personally, I see no reason why the XCOM re-makers of the world shouldn't band together, and instead of making several re-imaginings of the same game, they rather create a NEW franchise. They open extensive polls on the features we'd all like. Armies of helpers pump out one game at a time. We all hammer the aliens, and we all make a new sequel. Think of the possibilities. I still say that "XCOM 10", the final episode, should involved invading the homeworld of the overmasters who engineered all the aliens in the first place. Infiltrate, assault, and conquer their world. See how THEY like it.

 

And who's to say these sequels can't have some fun, like crossing paths with the Zerg, Protoss and Terrans? Or the Star Trek: The Next Generation universe (where they take one look at how screwed up our battles are and flee)? An XCOM squad, searching planets for the alien overmasters, unluckily plunks down in the middle of the Halo or Gears of War stories? Lead your squad through x many missions to get to an extraction method, to get the heck off the planet and leave those poor Halo and Gears of War dudes to their unpleasant demise. Perhaps XCOM unknowingly discovers a Sith or Jedi, who rewards them with force training and light-saber technologies? I'm just throwing out ideas. But man oh man...

 

There's my position. Gosh I just wish I knew how to help. I can type, but that's all. I hope **A** sequel is finished, so we can enjoy it, and then maybe we could all collaborate on many sequels to come. Is that possible?

 

PS. I just finished another night terror mission in UFO:AI. You know what I love?

 

- the riot shotgun: great for your first-through-the-door agent. It's great at short-range for storming. Put this stormtrooper right by the door, so when the green guys come through, KA-POW - bye bye!

- sniper rifle: looks great, and has that one-shot punch

- the old-fashioned style medikit, so that it's actually USEFUL to have a designated medic

- the combat knife - I foresee some serious special-forces style assassinations later in the game. You can stab or throw! Yeah!

- the flash-bang - man, it's like Rainbow-Six meets XCOM. HOW GOOD IS THAT???

- the first-person point of view: you can actually look through your agent's eyes to see what he/she can see!

 

I'm having a GREAT time! :-)

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

The only problem I see with the whole Idea of collecting all the other Xcom fanboys anf fangirls(if there Are any fangirls.. O: ) other than language barriers, would be human nature.

Naturally there would be arguements over who's game gets finished first, and people who wont want to do work on things, while others get angry at others.

 

Its naturally a vicious cycle which seems to happen in free games all the time D:

[Aiki-Knight]

Screen cap:

 

My sniper inside the hallway of a house, bringing up the rear of a house-clearing team. Check out the uniform compared to XCOM3 - looks like Rainbow Six, no? Nice detail, realistic equipment, it's all good. I'm going to slowly try to learn how to build maps. I'm going to help! The game is that good. The game's not even finished and I'm totally hooked. I think if it did add the pausable real-time of XCOM3, the firefights would be just ... crazy. That's the one thing I really like about XCOM3 - the real-time missions. They can go so much faster that way.

 

And by the way, every mission is a terror mission. I mean, any time there could be civilians around, the aliens will try to kill them, even on crash landings. And you know? That makes a lot of sense. A great update from XCOM3 - the lack of terror missons is really anti-climactic.

[Aiki-Knight]

Throwdown at the Hydro dam!

 

Hey people - remember the recyclotorium in XCOM3? It was kinda cool, with the water in the bottom, and the various dead bodies floating in the sewer, assumably to be recycled. As cool as that was, was odd. But the UFO:AI game has a proper hydro dam, complete with flowing water, and it really looks like a dam! 7 aliens landed and started to kill off the workers. Enter the team.

 

The layout is really neat. The map is quite expansive, and allows real use of ranged fighting. I managed to get a sniper and a heavy machine gunner into an operations tower, where I could overlook most of the battlefield. One of the things about X3 was that really great sniper posts were hard to find, but this was textbook. Just textbook. I turned the concrete tower into a sniper / machine-gun nest, and was it SWEET. It worked just as planned - aliens came storming through a perfect choke-point (some operations building), and the sniper and gunner just took them out with long-range reaction fire. There were civilians running helter-skelter, and one was killed by aliens.

 

What really works is to dig in at maximum range with a good mutual-arcs-of-fire layout. Superior position, superior cover, superior organization, superior discipline = winning the firefight. This is something I always, always try to do in XCOM3. Win the firefight, then, cautiously clear the area. I hate to think of my old army days, but one time, in an exercise, I led my section through an assault. It was all blank rounds, of course, but I chose to assault the enemy rather than wait to beat them out. My captain told me that my assaulting leadership was fine, but it wasn't the smart way. The smart way is to win the firefight first with superior aim, layout and discipline. Then, when the enemy is softened up as much as possible, THEN take their position. That made so much sense to me at the time, and I guess I never forgot it.

 

XCOM certainly rewards this kind of tactic, especially XCOM3. But the cramped nature of the maps and the limited range of agents' abilities to fire hamper this approach. UFO:AI feels like it has larger maps, and at times, like the dam mission, it rewards the long-range firefight. That being said, although the first half of the alien force attempted to storm my squad and fell into a textbook ambush, the other half reconsidered, and holed up. They would pop out, shoot, and take cover. It was VERY interesting.

 

The second half of the mission required a very methodical strategy of covering and moving, always setting up overwatch. Move to cover, set up arcs, wait, watch, plan, move to new cover, repeat. With a very methodical approach, I set up a wide distribution of agents who took out aliens as they popped their heads out. It was indeed a LONG firefight. But once I got the sniper into a nice, LONG-range firing solution, it was just a matter of time. This game really rewards the use of different troops. The sniper has the kind of range, accuracy, and power to take out enemies at long, long range. The shotgun really has that close-up punch for close-quarters storming. XCOM3 rewards these tactics too, but I think the weapons balance in this game is far more specialized.

 

Have a gander at a section of the map. On the left is my position, complete with sniper tower. On the right is the choke-point. Anyone playing this yet?

Edited February 1, 2008 by Aiki-Knight

[[dteviot]]

Looking at UFO:AI, I agree that Aiki-knight's suggestion that we cease work on Xenocide and go and work on UFO:AI makes a lot of sense. UFO:AI is much further along in development, has a larger number of active contributors, can run on Windows, Mac and Linux, and appears to support multiplayer.

As regards the ability to do custom mods, it does have the downside that all the code is written in C. (Which is not hard to learn, but is very difficult write well in, and tends to take quite a lot of effort to use, in comparison with C++, Python C#, etc.)

That said, a lot of the game is data driven (have a look at the .ufo files in https://ufoai.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/u...trunk/base/ufos so adding/changing items is probably not much harder than Xenocide.

 

Where I'm going is, I'm not sure that there's anything we were planning for Xenocide that UFO:AI can't do. In which case, can someone please tell me why we should continue with Xenocide instead of combining our efforts with the UFO:AI team?

Edited February 3, 2008 by dteviot

[Guest Azrael Strife]

Nostalgia?

 

No, really, I got none

[Aiki-Knight]

Hey Everyone,

 

Well, I couldn't say that the Xenocide people should abandon a project that has taken so much work, but I can say that UFO:AI continues to show that it's a game fairly close to completion. The game already has terror missions, alien hideouts, air interceptions, downed UFO missions, client-country ratings, income, transfers, research, and production. The UFO-paedia-style entries are really quite detailed and show a very educated approach to the science behind the game. Although the game isn't really complete per se, it's a playable game NOW. At the same time, the developers will need help to finish this magum opus, this masterpiece.

 

I'm really starting to see how each weapon and so-called soldier class is really distinct as opposed to XCOM3. On a mission where I had to take down an alien hideout, I was able to clear a building of some aliens, then get to the second-story window to set up the sniper. And I have to say, it really pays off to cultivate a good sniper. Overlooking the battlefield, the sniper establishes tremendous battlefield control at extreme range. I was able to take out several aliens when they broke out of a building to initiate a counterattack. But a good sniper, with that one-shot-one-kill weapon, and that kind of range, really shows what real snipers do.

 

And yet, the sniper needs to be supported by the other troop classes. The sniper needs assault troops to clear out the way into the building, and secure the sniper's back. Also, other classes have to advance along the battlefield to pull such a sniper post under the player's control. The sniper can't do a lot of reaction fire, and his sniper rifle's magazines only carry 5 rounds each. The sniper shouldn't be asked to clear buildings, or fight close battles - the weapon just isn't best suited to that.

 

I find that my XCOM3 soldier classes have carried over into UFO:AI, with some important changes, and the classes are more useful:

 

Rifleman: armed with assault rifle, which has good range, acceptable power, decent fire rate. The all-rounder. The standard agent.

 

Machine-Gunner: A MUST. Carries a heavy machine gun with rapid, rapid fire, large box mags, decent range, but poorer accuracy. This one lays down the heavy suppression fire, or fire against groups.

 

Stormtrooper: armed with combat shotgun. Brutally powerful up close (as a shotgun should be), not very useful at range. This is my point agent, clearing rooms. Any agent CAN storm, but the shotgun is really the best weapon for it.

 

Sniper: this is a MUST as well. The long-range shooter who, with the right set-up, provides your long-range hitting power, just like a real sniper would. When it comes to winning the firefight at range with superior position, superior layout, and superior aim, this is THE agent for it. Like the Queen in chess.

 

Medic: armed with submachine gun, which is light to carry, but a great weapon at short-intermediate range. The medic carries the cumbersome medi-kit, and I use this agent to preserve rear-control, but a good agent to fill gaps with, as the submachine gun does wonderfully when the aliens start closing in a little.

 

 

So, as you can see, you should be trying this game and thinking how the lessons we learn in XCOM3 have sharpened our skills. I'd be really interested to learn who among X3 players decides to use agent classes, or the homogenous universal agent. What a great time.

[Aiki-Knight]

What a neat feature: the first-person point of view

 

You can hit the "v" key, and see out the eyes of the selected agent. You can use the left and right arrow buttons and the see full view the agent would see by turning his/her head. It's just an awesome feature for tweaking your agents' arcs of fire. And let's face it - it's COOL. With all the windows and holes agents can peer through, it's a fantastic feature. Imagine if in X3 you could see whether your agent could in fact see past that tree to cover that door...

 

Check it out. By the way, this was an awesome terror mission in a suburban city intersection, with a park, shop, and really great houses.

 

Anyone doing this yet? Am I all alone? So many people on the UFO:AI forum are acting like this is a commercial product, and they're complaing things about the color of the equipment screen when the game's not finished. Gaw! Some people just DON'T GET IT. I know THIS crowd does.

[Aiki-Knight]

Hey All,

 

Here's the link: http://ufoai.sourceforge.net/

 

Now for the love of all that's good, go try it! Let me know how you like it!

 

AK

[Aiki-Knight]

SWAT Tactics - XCOM3, UFO:AI and real life!

 

Check out this link: http://www.nme.de/cgi-shl/nme/swat_T_Ebbc.php

 

It's taken from a website on current police SWAT tactics. How does this compare to what we do in the game, and how would we evaluate and revise these ideas based on the game?

[[Mad]]

Wow, seems like I completely missed this thread. Sorry about that, because this is pretty serious.

I agree that UFO:AI is very promising and tempting. So why not leave. Hm This is a really good question a lot of us have already thought about at some point, heck, a lot of us are thinking it all the time. And the lack of commited (senior) members does not make it more easy.

I don't think I can tell you why you should stay - not that there are no reasons (we do need you - you are the one who brought Xenocide this far from almost nothing, you are the one person that keeps the Project going only to name the most urgent ones), but because I think you know all that yourself. so I will tell you, and all you others, why I am not leaving.

 

I do believe in Project Xenocide. I do believe, because this is maybe not the most complete game until now, but becaue I have searched the web three years ago, and I looked at all the projects, and I found that Xenocide had some features that deeply attracted me.

I love the idea to base Xenocide in a world that could actually be this way, I love that we have tons and tons of background material, I love that our CTs are based on actual physics, chemistry, biology and medicine as close as possible in a futuristic set. I fell in love with xenocide, because they started with the geoscape which I always loved more than the battlescape. If you loose a battle you can recover from it, if you make mistakes on the geoscape, you might get in serious trouble. I came and stayed because the people around here do have a vision, maybe they are dreamers, but they keep dreaming, (if they show up that is) and you can feel their love for their idea and the world they have created in every discussion.

 

That is a lot of babble. So why do I really stay?

I stay, becaue I have invested many many hours building a part of this, and I won't see my work and all my ideas go down the drain - period.

And I stay, because I honestly believe we can do better. And if it takes some more years of my life. I want to see this game at v1. Because after this the whole fun begins. Just have a look at the laboratories. That's what I do if I lack motivation.

 

Please stay David - you know that we need you, you know that you have inveted a lot of time and sweat into this - don't let it die on the way.

Edited February 16, 2008 by Mad

[kafros]

It was during summer of 2004 that I found out the name of the game I was playing as a very young child, x-com. "Wonderful, btw are there any remakes of it?". I saw project EDF, UFO:AI, X-Force, Talon and Xenocide. I especially liked EDF, Alien Invasion had a working battlescape, but the Xenocide community was the most interesting and organised at the time. And I joined.

 

After that, I think it's more or less what Mad said.

 

If you are dedicated to the idea you're working on, you enjoy every part of it. I think that our team's co-operation is as enjoyable as seeing a "complete product". And I enjoy watching the project progress some tiny bit daily, I update my SVN folder everyday and check the changes you've added

 

Well after that, it just depends on each person's view. Some prefer AI's gameplay, some prefer X-Force, some just dislike Xenocide's lack of progress.

Xenocide managed to get some fast progress (thanks to you dteviot), and then people rant about the change.

 

@Aiki-Knight:

I played the 2.2 release 1 month ago. Yes it is playable, and enjoyable for the first hours. It has some very interesting ideas implemented. After that, I thought it was boring.

 

And, I almost CRIED when I saw their research entries. Non-interesting techno-babble, informal and rough writting style... Although I like the "Proposed doctrine" idea. I really don't know how you think that "The UFO-paedia-style entries are really quite detailed and show a very educated approach to the science behind the game.". Anyway, that's just personal taste...

 

And yes, it is playable NOW, but I guess you haven't tried the latest xenocide release for yourself.

 

In addition, as I mentioned before, there's a huge difference between being on the "community/gamer" and the "developer" side of the equation. You'll probably think that Cydonias Fall isn't even worth checking (as they are on the concept level), but that is simply wrong.

 

So, dteviot, you can decide whether the Xenocide idea is flawed and that our work isn't worth and can be scraped, or that it is worth every moment and should keep progressing :\

[[dteviot]]

@Aiki-Knight:

I played the 2.2 release 1 month ago. Yes it is playable, and enjoyable for the first hours. It has some very interesting ideas implemented. After that, I thought it was boring.

OK, what was boring?

 

And, I almost CRIED when I saw their research entries. Non-interesting techno-babble, informal and rough writting style... Although I like the "Proposed doctrine" idea. I really don't know how you think that "The UFO-paedia-style entries are really quite detailed and show a very educated approach to the science behind the game.". Anyway, that's just personal taste...

You could replace them.

Or talk to the developers on IRC: freenode #UFO:AI, and see if they're interested in our texts.

 

Oh, and a final comment, according to SourceForge, UFO:AI, 22nd most popular download for January. (And I even saw references to it in a recent Linux mag.)

Edited February 19, 2008 by dteviot

[Aiki-Knight]

@Aiki-Knight:

I played the 2.2 release 1 month ago. Yes it is playable, and enjoyable for the first hours. It has some very interesting ideas implemented. After that, I thought it was boring.

 

And, I almost CRIED when I saw their research entries. Non-interesting techno-babble, informal and rough writting style... Although I like the "Proposed doctrine" idea. I really don't know how you think that "The UFO-paedia-style entries are really quite detailed and show a very educated approach to the science behind the game.". Anyway, that's just personal taste...

 

And yes, it is playable NOW, but I guess you haven't tried the latest xenocide release for yourself.

 

In addition, as I mentioned before, there's a huge difference between being on the "community/gamer" and the "developer" side of the equation. You'll probably think that Cydonias Fall isn't even worth checking (as they are on the concept level), but that is simply wrong.

 

I honestly don't know what you thought was boring, I mean, unless you think XCOM is boring. The maps are extremely various and look great. They map a lot of real installations with a fun amount of detail, lots of cover, and the buildings and maps are recognizable as places one might actually go on Earth today. The research entries demonstrate a sincere attempt to discuss some of the potential science behind the new technologies recovered from the aliens, something that reflects either some education by the writer, or some research. Either way, a plausible scientific explanation is something for the adult player. I'm not a scientist by training, but I appreciate some detail and some depth to a storyline. Unless "techno-babble" applies to any detailed scientific discussion, I cannot agree with your criticism. The writing is not rough at all: it employs many of the conventions of academic journal writing, while at the same retains the feel of personal correspondence, which is indeed the medium of the UFO-paedia: e-mailed letters from science staff to command staff. Its English is fluid, with a highly literate turn of phrase that is mindful of the appropriate linguistic register.

 

There is no need to feel that I'm attacking Xenocide. I am not doing so, and have never done so. I have only applauded UFO:AI for the simple facts of its admirable achievement. I'm sure the work of creating a game is nothing short of staggering, and I can appreciate this without being a developer. I don't know why you impute to me a lack of interest in Cydonia's Fall; I am interested in it. It just isn't playable yet, as far as I'm aware, so I haven't been writing about it. All in all, I'm not attacking anyone's turf. I'm only praising those who are keeping XCOM a healthy, vigorous, and living thing. And I hope that, as a community, we'll always encourage one another, and work towards progress. And have some fun, too. On that note, fellow X3 vets, go try the game. So far, I'm finding that the lessons learned from XCOM3 are highly relevant to the new game. I've had no trouble adapting to the tactical exigencies of UFO:AI.

[[dteviot]]

That is a lot of babble. So why do I really stay?

I stay, because I have invested many many hours building a part of this, and I won't see my work and all my ideas go down the drain - period.

And I stay, because I honestly believe we can do better. And if it takes some more years of my life. I want to see this game at v1. Because after this the whole fun begins. Just have a look at the laboratories. That's what I do if I lack motivation.

 

Please stay David - you know that we need you, you know that you have invested a lot of time and sweat into this - don't let it die on the way.

OK, as I see it, you're making two errors in logic.

Firstly, there's the "sunk costs fallacy". What I'd like you to do, and I REALLY do want you to do this, is have a look at Xenocide as it stands and make a list of the things that need to be done to get to v1.0 stage. (If nothing else, it gives me a second opinion on what still needs to be done.) Then, have a look at UFO:AI and list what would need to be done there to get it to an equivalent state. Given these two lists, we can then estimate how long it will take to get both projects to v1.0, and see which route is likely to get us to the destination first.

 

The second error is assuming that if we joined UFO:AI all our efforts to this point would be wasted. I think it's quite possible that we could reuse a significant quantity of the material we have. If nothing else, alternate documentation could be provided. And while it's true that the C# code is not directly reusable, the underlying algorithms should be useful.

 

I update my SVN folder everyday and check the changes you've added

I'm blushing.

Seriously thought, it's good to hear that at least one person is checking that I haven't broken anything with my check-ins.

(Also, I generally only have time to work on Xenocide in the Weekends, so there's little point checking during the week.)

 

Well after that, it just depends on each person's view. Some prefer AI's gameplay, some prefer X-Force, some just dislike Xenocide's lack of progress.

Xenocide managed to get some fast progress (thanks to you dteviot), and then people rant about the change.

They do have some very valid points.

The original Xenocide was supposed to run on Linux and Mac. The current XNA code base will not do that. And to be brutally honest, is not likely to for the foreseeable future. (I haven't seen any progress on Mono.XNA) There's also the fact that even for the people running windows, at least 20% have a graphics card that's not up to the task. (According to the steam statistics I mentioned on my blog.)

[StaffSargeant]

Hey dteviot, I am lurking around even if not contributing much at the moment (real life has precedence)... I get latest every time you post a progress report and take a look at the how things are coming along. You are doing a great job and I am sorry I can't contribute much at the moment.

 

In regards to going over to UFO:AI - I have tried it and didn't like it much. The atmosphere just isn't there for me and I feel that xenocide, even at this stage has more of the feel of the original than UFO:AI has.

 

When I saw the XNA branch come up I instantly got more interested in the project and thought that I could contribute to this. I believe that the entry barrier for C# is lower than for C and C++. I was hoping to see progress with these on mono, but like you, am disappointed on that front.

 

I joined in as a C# programmer, I don't know C or C++ well enough to feel comfortable getting into a code base like that, I find 3D/gaming development enough of a challenge to my little brain as it is, not to mention trying to keep on top of work related tech .

[[Mad]]

OK, as I see it, you're making two errors in logic.

Firstly, there's the "sunk costs fallacy". What I'd like you to do, and I REALLY do want you to do this, is have a look at Xenocide as it stands and make a list of the things that need to be done to get to v1.0 stage. (If nothing else, it gives me a second opinion on what still needs to be done.) Then, have a look at UFO:AI and list what would need to be done there to get it to an equivalent state. Given these two lists, we can then estimate how long it will take to get both projects to v1.0, and see which route is likely to get us to the destination first.

will do, gimme some time. But I did not say that they need more time, I am sure they have a shorter eay to go.

 

The second error is assuming that if we joined UFO:AI all our efforts to this point would be wasted. I think it's quite possible that we could reuse a significant quantity of the material we have. If nothing else, alternate documentation could be provided. And while it's true that the C# code is not directly reusable, the underlying algorithms should be useful.

 

 

about the algorithms, that I can believe. Apart from this, I can not imagine them using any of the xnet texts, as those just don't fit to their models. Please, Aiki knight, correct me if I am wrong. So, from my pov, a lot would be lost. (from yours of course the losses would probably be minimal)

Edited February 19, 2008 by Mad

[[dteviot]]

The original Xenocide was supposed to run on Linux and Mac. The current XNA code base will not do that. And to be brutally honest, is not likely to for the foreseeable future. (I haven't seen any progress on Mono.XNA)

I should clarify this statement. While Mono.XNA is probably not going to be viable, Using the Mono wrappers for OpenGL remains a possibility.

[Guest Azrael Strife]

IMHO joining efforts with UFO: AI is one of the only ways PX will ever be completed, I cannot imagine anyone enjoying working alone forever (as much as others try to help, david's basically alone in the programming area, and texts just don't make a game), there's everything to be gained, for the whole X-Com community, and everything to be lost for PX if the choice is to remain on our own.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

about the sunk fees, whatever these have done for payment in either man power or real money, could they not be simply set aside till a later date?

and for what isnt, why not just recycle where possible, like if you had an update site or some such, simply use it for Ai instead of Xeno for the time being

 

I have to agree with Azrael, although I havent been on these forums as long as many of you working on the project, I have been watching progress head fairly slowly, and would prefer to see one of these great looking games fully functional rather than both of them being unfinished.

Perhaps after the joining of efforts on Ai, the folks over there would even join into Xenocide afterwards, adding manpower. ^^

[Sorrow]

So I finally got the U:AI to install on my comp and:

 

The good:

Works on my 4 years old computer.

It's complex.

I like the ufopedia descriptions. They sound pretty believable.

E-mails.

Good damages. Actors often die when hit. And sometimes they don't die.

Specialists.

Weapons. They are realistic and there aren't absurd weapons like Heavy Cannon or Autocannon.

Camera that doesn't need rotating and is pretty stable.

Confirming orders - at last ! I don't have to lose soldiers because of misclicks anymore !

 

The bad:

Sounds aren't violent enough - sounds of weapons fire and screams are very gentle. Laser Squad on C-64, UFO and TFTD have done a great job in adding dramatism by using sharp sounds (even real weapon sounds are sharp, not gentle like in the game) and dramatic death animations.

 

The ugly:

Graphics are fugly - blurred textures are everywhere, even on geoscape - I miss the times, when there were pixels instead of the blur, like in Syndicate Wars. Actors don't feel like they are "alive" - especially the squad members and aliens - UFO and even Laser Squad did a lot beter job on characters and opponents. They were crude, but felt like humans/aliens, not weird dolls.

No terrain demolishing - which sucks, because I loved going through walls, etc. in X-com.

[Gimli]

Do note that this is being made on the Quake 2 engine, so that's a reason for a lot of things missing. I'm not sure if the game even has random amp generation yet. It doesn't in usual missions, but they have to have it for base defense missions. They weren't working in 2.1, I don't know about 2.2. Hopefully it's on its way. It looks to me like it still needs a lot of work, especially in balancing, but I think as you play you'll notice a lot of things improved over X-COM.

one thing that particularly irked me in 2.2 was that I got a Terror Site in Wellington which I couldn't possibly reach. Since for some reason the site doesn't disappear, this lead to losing points and eventually losing the game. Also, UFO interceptions need to be rebalanced, both the UFOs and interceptors go down from one shot, which while realistic seems to clash with the game. Perhaps it could be somehow avoided while still being believable enough?

[Aiki-Knight]

Just some interesting notes. I've been playing a little, and experienced some really FUN maps:

 

1. "Druglord" - you respond to a terror attack on a drug lord's enclave in the jungle. You wind up having an awesome shoot-out across a river, and you hide behind rocks and crates. A sniper's paradise.

2. "Venice" - a beautifully rendered part of Venice is another site of a terror attack, complete with graceful little bridges and boats in the water, sidewalk cafe, water fountain feature, riverside commerce. Ah, Italy.

3. "Village" - a great residential neighbourhood terror attack mission, complete with playground and really neat-looking houses, complete with full bathroom fixtures. Take the second-story windows and cut the aliens down. Problem is, their sniper takes a high roof and it ain't pleasant.

4. "Military convoy". Wow. This one's amazing. Several military trucks and a police car attacked en route. You land and the aliens are all around you up on high ground. It's a blistering shoot-out that requires that you take those high positions away from the camped aliens.

5. "Subway". Honestly, this is just AMAZING. Terror attack in a subway station. You have to storm those staircases or the aliens WILL kill all the civilians. The aliens storm you, ambush you, the whole thing. And yes - you may need to fight in proper subway cars, complete with doors, seats, and civilians. There are system maps and art on the walls, not to mention vendors and offices.

 

In my current game, I haven't lost a single agent. Though I've come close!

 

The aliens tend to fight in three stages:

1. Kill all civilians as quickly as possible. They are relentless and EVIL about this.

2. Storm and flank your team.

3. When held off, they'll hole up and wait for you to come to them, and they WILL try to hurt you.

(4.) Sometimes a last unit will panic and hide. But they're still dangerous!

 

Love it.

[Aiki-Knight]

Do note that this is being made on the Quake 2 engine, so that's a reason for a lot of things missing. I'm not sure if the game even has random amp generation yet. It doesn't in usual missions, but they have to have it for base defense missions. They weren't working in 2.1, I don't know about 2.2. Hopefully it's on its way. It looks to me like it still needs a lot of work, especially in balancing, but I think as you play you'll notice a lot of things improved over X-COM.

one thing that particularly irked me in 2.2 was that I got a Terror Site in Wellington which I couldn't possibly reach. Since for some reason the site doesn't disappear, this lead to losing points and eventually losing the game. Also, UFO interceptions need to be rebalanced, both the UFOs and interceptors go down from one shot, which while realistic seems to clash with the game. Perhaps it could be somehow avoided while still being believable enough?

 

The current UFO-shoot-down rules are still in development. That part hasn't been finished. The Wellington and Africa missions require that you build a second base. You can't rely on one base to cover the whole planet in this game. I like the way the terror missions don't go away on their own. The aliens will keep killing humans until someone goes down there, and busts their a$$es and stops them. Sweet.

 

Considering this is still a game in development and I'm already totally hooked, I'd say this is right up there in the XCOM universe. You know? It's RIGHT up there with the best of them. Aliens storm your agents with BIG SWORDS. AWEsome.