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Should We Add RTS?


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#1 Judge_Deadd

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 07:42 AM

Those who will get on Xenocide from Apoc or RTS like Warcraft will feel familiar. What'd you say???!!!
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#2 j'ordos

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 08:39 AM

I think not... so I voted no.

One system I do see fitting though, is 'simultaneous turn-based' like Combat Mission and Laser Squad Nemesis, where the game goes in rounds as in turn based games, but you give orders at the beginning of your turn (you have time to do that, as the game is paused then) and when you're done you see your units and the enemy units moving at the same time... and you can't change your orders anymore so they had better be good ones :devillaugh:
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#3 dipstick

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 08:40 AM

YES!!! Apoc is great due to RTS!! I cannot live without it!!

BOW DOWN TO RTS!!! BOW DOWN NOW!!

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#4 SupSuper

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 09:42 AM

RTS is best for exploring and TBS for battling, thus i think we should either give an option (like in Apoc) or mix both (like in JA2):
in JA2 the game would be real-time until an emeny was detected, switching to turn-based. when there were no enemies spotted for 5/6 turns (or all in the sector got killed) the game switched back to real-time.

i mean, exploring can be real boring in turn-based, specially if you're planning on killing all the aliens in bases/colonies.

too bad, now you will never know the ancient secrets of supsupers long gone avatar ;)

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#5 Thimble

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 10:40 AM

I agree with SupSuper, RTS mode in JA2 was one of its best qualities. It made searching those big JA2 maps easier. This would allow for larger maps in future versions of xenocide.

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#6 mamutas

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 12:03 PM

How about to have an answer 'maybe'?

We are not going to put it in at first (out of original game scope), but it could be added later when multiplayer will be implemented.
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#7 Deimos

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Posted 29 October 2003 - 06:33 PM

I voted no for two reasons.
In v1.0
1. Its a heck of a lot of work for our very limited programming team
and
2. Xcom 1 which is what our focus is was turn based.

Maybe for a later version. :)

#8 Breunor

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 01:00 PM

I voted no as there are too many things to track per soldier for RTS IMO. Imagine trying to manage 20 heros and their spells in Warcraft3...

Also, I'm moving this thread into the lab, as it does deal with something outside the scope of version 1, which is sticking to the original xcom gameplay features.

#9 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 02:00 PM

Well, it won't be as complex as you think bru, it will be like most any other rts (our guys aren't going to have spells right?) the firing interface could be like fallout tactis' where you select burst/aimed/normal and the guy shoots on that mode until you change it.
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#10 Micah

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 06:58 PM

I voted no for all the reasons deimos, breunor, and essentially what mamutas said, as well as the fact that we decided this over a year ago. However, it would be something to look at after v1 is out the door.

#11 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 07:02 PM

I agree that we should focus on xcom for v1, but once v1 is out the door, we should try and implement it if possible, because it could really be fun and attract some of the new "I want everything and I want it NOW!" crowd.
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#12 HappyOwl

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Posted 30 October 2003 - 07:09 PM

I have voted "no" because xenocide is going to be a remake of the original UFO. It might spice up the gameplay, but it shouldn't be considered for the first few versions.

#13 Minion

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 06:20 AM

I voted no, for the same reason as others in the thread. One other reason too is that I like the slow pace and ease the turnbased system gave. Having to stress around in an rts environment, being fast on the mouse and your keybord shortcuts is not the way I like playing strategy. Fast fingers are for FPS games and "Warcraft-like" games imo.

Hi, all btw. Just arrived over here from a link at the UFO Aftermath forums. That is a game that isnt going to succeed very well. I think this review pretty much sums it up.

http://www.gamespot....ath/review.html

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 06:49 AM

I think if real time is made in the same way as JA2 then it would be much less tedious. Being the lab v1+ goes without saying :)

#15 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 02:51 PM

Yup.

The problem JD, is that you were too general. There was no "after v1" option. :(

That is why it probably seems like an overwhelming no.
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#16 Judge_Deadd

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Posted 31 October 2003 - 02:52 PM

Remember that I meant an OPTION of RTS. I wouldn't want the game to be whole RTS.
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#17 coolp

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Posted 10 December 2003 - 03:25 PM

The real time battles with pausing in UFO: Aftermath just didn't do it for me. They didn't have the same intensity, or the same "scary factor". I think that this game should be turn based only, with no option of real time.

#18 Puasonen

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Posted 10 December 2003 - 04:14 PM

coolp is right..
And since majority of people who loves/loved x-com, loved x-com 1 and x-com 2, not that crappy funny looking real time apoc with duck looking aliens, I think real time isn't important at all. Turn based mode would suffer from it too because whole battles would have to be changed a bit..
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#19 demich

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Posted 11 December 2003 - 12:04 AM

in my opinion the best game squad game with rts adn tbs was fallout tactics. However i don't belive that we could make something similar :)

#20 ShadowHawk00

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Posted 12 December 2003 - 02:20 AM

Voted no. It is hard enough without the tiles for a limited programming team and adding it later will be a real pain ( in the tail end of the body ). It is either an Do i now or do it never issue and RTS is a lot harder to implement and a lot easier to play on.

The improvement that is planned already with no tiles is a hard one imo but hey a chalenge is a chalenge no fun in having a working game before new-year this year then we have to find a new project next year :)

Edited by ShadowHawk00, 12 December 2003 - 02:23 AM.


#21 Laitanyel

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Posted 12 December 2003 - 02:24 AM

Well, since most of you are hard-core Xcom-fanatics (hmm, just like me! :D ), all of you want turn-based combat. I love turn-based combat, BUT there are some VERY annoying things about turn-based, which is why I vote for a hybrid. That is either selectable (as in apoc) or as in UFO-Aftermath (which actually has been praised as much as it has been hated). Let me quote a discussion at the UFO:Aftermath forums regarding this matter:

<<<TB:
Three soldiers walk down a street. Scout detects an alien, fires a shot and then runs for cover.
Second soldier takes three shots at the alien, hitting one.
Third soldier downs the alien. Turn over.

SAS:
Three soldiers walk down a street. Scout detects an alien, game pauses. You tell the scout to fire at the alien, then run like heck for cover. Soldier 2 and three carry assault rifles, which have longer range than the scouts SMG, thus you order them to fire at the alien. Unpause.

Scout shoots the alien and misses. The alien fires back, hitting the scout running. Scout is wounded but keeps running. Soldiers two and three empty their magazines trying to hit the alien down the street, hitting it occasionally. Eventually, the alien goes down, and you administer first aid to your scout.


Why do I like SAS better? Because it gives a much better time-perspective of the combat. It has the power of TB:s details in orders, but have the strength in real-time of allowing everyone to act at the same time, thus giving the alien a chance.

In TB, the alien was fried already from the start, in SAS he could've won, with some luck.

I personally think that SAS gives MORE strategical options than TB. Imagine if my scout runs out of TP:s trying to run for cover. There he is, in the middle of the street, like a sitting duck. In SAS, he's running for his life with bullets screaming all over.

So, why didn't you like SAS? Describe in the same manner I did, why you DON'T like SAS? Did you even give it a chance? >>>

This was said by me at that forum. And imagine another scenario:

You have two guys setting up an ambush. Both guys are armed with high ROF assault rifles. Alien enters the view:

TB: Your first soldier doesn't even react, thus the alien sees him and shoots him to death. You second soldier does get interrupt and shoots back, hitting the alien. The alien spins and kills that soldier too (come on, it's always like that, isn't it?)

SAS: The game pauses (if you've chosen it to do so) and you tell your two soldiers to mow the alien down. Unpause. They both unleash heck upon the poor alien who desperately fires of a few shots, hitting the first scout who might be killed, but the alien succumbs under the fire from soldier nr 2.

Say your first soldier did interrupt. With luck, he hits the alien, MAYBE killing it. If not he misses, and gets killed.

The simultaneous action system is by far the best tactical system I've used. With a few tweaks it could very well be implemented for the games best. But, as many have said, it's probably v1+. But anyway, don't like true realtime, as it becomes too much of a shooting spree then. No time to think, or plan your actions.

I think the SAS incorporates the best from both systems. Just my humble opinion. I personally think that UFO:AM was quite fun. For a while. But it suffers from bad play testing. Unbalanced and quite boring in the long run. BUT! The combat system is a whole different matter. I hope you are not judging the SAS for what UFO:AM is. SAS, I think, is a very clever way to reflect combat, while the game itself is quite a failiure. Don't think SAS is bad, just becouse AM is...

What say you?

Edited by Laitanyel, 12 December 2003 - 02:29 AM.


#22 ShadowHawk00

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Posted 12 December 2003 - 05:12 AM

TB should not be that way either. In JA when u ambush both your soldiers get the interrupt to fire their rounds. Then the attacking unit gets a shot ( if he lives )

SaS is nice and good but altar could not implement it correctly. They missed a lot of things. SaS is more prone to have more bugs in it and it is far more easy just move and dont think about good positions u can move later.

It is all about the implementation SaS is a verry good system but really hard to do correctly u need multiple commands for a unit active at the same time.

In TB : Soldier moves, U reload, soldier shoots. Simple straight forward.

SaS soldier moves while reloading so he should not run that far and have less visibility and reaction. Then soldier shoots, maby when walking. U notice the simple complexity change in this.

Dont make the game to complex at first just make a good working and fun game then u can always deside to change the battlescape part if there is enough support for it. And more public awareness means more programmers so more talent.

#23 Laitanyel

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 12:29 AM

Dont make the game to complex at first just make a good working and fun game then u can always deside to change the battlescape part if there is enough support for it. And more public awareness means more programmers so more talent.


Agreed. I do not think that SAS would even be considered for v1. but at least I think it should be an ALTERNATIVE in v1+. But, to avoid flaming over this matter, let's drop the SAS for now. In the end, it's not which system that is the "best", but what personal preferences you have.

#24 dipstick

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 08:53 AM

I love the Apoc style. It also has turnbased for the traditionalists, while having the best (ie RT) for us :D
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#25 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 09:51 AM

Well, for me, apoc's turnbased was unnecesarily complicated. I think we should stick with turnbased for V1, then possibly add an apoc like realtime for V3+
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#26 Sabin

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Posted 13 December 2003 - 10:41 PM

Perhaps for Version 1, a replay option can be implemented, so that after a battle, you can watch it again, in real time.(Though questionable, when it comes down to quality.)

#27 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 08:27 AM

Now that I like! Would be great for making things to brag about too! :)
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#28 Laitanyel

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:16 AM

Well, to make a real-time replay system out of a turn based system??? How do you do that? I would understand if you made a real-time replay system out of the SAS, since it's a pausable real-time system. But how do you show turn-based in real-time? If I move, shouldn't aliens move at the same time, and my other soldiers too? And IF aliens move at the same time, will he be standing where my soldier shot?

See problems coming up here...Unless you make it a "turn-based-without-the-hidden-movement-screen" 'real-time' system...

#29 j'ordos

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:20 AM

The idea for replays has been brought up before, here
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#30 Laitanyel

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:32 AM

Sounds exactly like this discussion. Jim noticed the same TB vs RT problem as I.

#31 Breunor

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 11:55 AM

I think a good balance while staying with TB is to alternate between sides for each unit. Your reaction time determines who goes first on each side. The only use for turns would be for timered grenades and the like. You could also favor the higher reaction team by allowing up to 2 units to go for every enemy unit, if your guys are quicker. If you leave someone with reserved TUs for opportunity fire, they get to shoot as soon as the enemy unit moves into their field of view, they already have the higher reaction. So in your 2 on 1 ambush, the alien appears, the highest reaction ambusher gets to shoot, then the alien gets to react IF it has a higher reaction time than the other ambusher. Otherwise the second ambusher gets to shoot. If your not directly facing towards the target, the angle you're off by lowers your reaction by a liear amount to account for turning. So if the enemy comes into field of view off your left shoulder while you're in overwatch, you start to turn towards him, "losing" reaction as you turn. If it drops below the alien's reaction before you can shoot, the alien fires first.

#32 Laitanyel

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 01:37 PM

That sound like a more reasonable system of TB than the current Xcom system, which I personally dislike because of the strange things I've already mentioned.

Question is, would you add that to v1 for realism and improvement, or would that be so gameplay changing that it would be v1+? Personally, I think that the original creators WANTED a realistic system, which in my eyes would make it V1. But that's just me....

#33 dipstick

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 02:45 PM

I would have to say that the APOC style RT is the best way to go, but I would also be in favour of a TB system to pacify the traditionalists. Also, an option to choose each mission would be good. Some missions, although I would have to question this, TB may be the better option.
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#34 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 14 December 2003 - 03:18 PM

Apoc's Real time was good, but one of the main reasons for this is that your guys didn't die in one hit!

I think we should do TB really well first, then go back and add real time in V4+
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#35 Whitewashed

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Posted 18 December 2003 - 05:55 PM

I think the real time mode in Apocalypse was great! I love all 3 games but Apocalypse is my favourite mainly because of the real time mode. There was so much more action and it was much cooler when the aliens moved at the same time and didn't just stand there waiting to get shot. I think it was very well done.

I am aware of that real time mode would take a lot of work so it's not top priority. First concentrate on finishing version 1 and then add real time.

#36 Tortanick

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 11:54 AM

Personally I like a Laser Squad nemesis STB system, it has all the fear of watching helpless while your men fight while avoiding the problems with pure TB E.G. you plan an ambush and the alien walks into it then blasts both your guys. On the other hand it avoids the RTS problem in which you don’t need to use strategy at all, if your men are badly placed you can just move them.

#37 Blehm 98

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Posted 17 July 2004 - 07:00 PM

Can you please be more coherent with your speach?

Also, if it is accepted, then it won't be in version 1
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#38 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 17 July 2004 - 07:23 PM

Sounds like he wants the Continous turnbased system, similar to Fallout Tactics, Baldur's Gate, NWN, KOTOR, or Laser Squad Nemesis.
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#39 SupSuper

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Posted 18 July 2004 - 06:20 AM

Sounds like he wants the Continous turnbased system, similar to Fallout Tactics, Baldur's Gate, NWN, KOTOR, or Laser Squad Nemesis.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and JA2 :P

too bad, now you will never know the ancient secrets of supsupers long gone avatar ;)

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#40 Paladin

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 09:44 AM

Dont make the game to complex at first just make a good working and fun game then u can always deside to change the battlescape part if there is enough support for it. And more public awareness means more programmers so more talent.


Agreed. I do not think that SAS would even be considered for v1. but at least I think it should be an ALTERNATIVE in v1+. But, to avoid flaming over this matter, let's drop the SAS for now. In the end, it's not which system that is the "best", but what personal preferences you have.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I agree, SAS was a very nice addition in Aftermath, but they got it a bit sloppy. I like the walk/run decisions affecting stealth, but they could have been better implemented (Gimme inside building, PLEASE!! :crying: ).

Good TB like in XCOM1 can easily abstract real time. Anyway, it's a game! :wink:
If properly implemented, REACTION FIRE is the key that stuck you to your seat, and prevented you from charging head-on in a UFO... :naughty:
I'd say keeping an option to let your soldiers also keep TU's to TURN AROUND would be nice...
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#41 Paladin

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 09:52 AM

I think a good balance while staying with TB is to alternate between sides for each unit. Your reaction time determines who goes first on each side.
(...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


True, a balance to TB to alternate between sides would be nice and easy to implement, but It could very easily get out of hand, as in people hiring tons of soldiers to keep only the best reactions, the aliens would'nt be able to do squat and it would ruin the realism... :hammer:
Perhaps keeping it as an option...
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#42 Tortanick

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 01:39 PM

While I'm still a STB man I might point out a flaw in paladin's reasoning: some species are faster reacting than humans.

Take the house fly: it almost always is half way across the room by the time you hand hits the wall. Sectoids probably wouldn't be so fast but some alien species will probably be faster than your best men.

Also it would cost a lot to hire lots of solders then fire the slow ones.

#43 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 19 July 2004 - 06:30 PM

and JA2


Excuse me? JA2 was just normal turn based with reaction fire. Come to think of it, JA2 was like an advanced Xcom, minus the cool aliens and weapons, and the geoscape and skyrangers, and interceptions.

True, a balance to TB to alternate between sides would be nice and easy to implement, but It could very easily get out of hand, as in people hiring tons of soldiers to keep only the best reactions, the aliens would'nt be able to do squat and it would ruin the realism... 
Perhaps keeping it as an option...


Perhaps a similar system could be employed, but it only happens on the first turn? That would set the pattern for all the other turns on that mission, without being too hard/easy to cheat?

While I'm still a STB man I might point out a flaw in paladin's reasoning: some species are faster reacting than humans.

Take the house fly: it almost always is half way across the room by the time you hand hits the wall. Sectoids probably wouldn't be so fast but some alien species will probably be faster than your best men.

Also it would cost a lot to hire lots of solders then fire the slow ones.


Achidna/Spawn would be a good candidate for that. But with regards to soldiers, you have to remember that plenty of people went through masses of rookies screening for psi potiential. Screening for reactions would be even easier as you could check the moment the rookie arrived.
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#44 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 03:24 PM

Yes, for the love of God, let it be RTS!!!
as dipstick said, BOW DOWN TO RTS :master:

#45 A_dxman

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:36 PM

For the love of everything that has ever been coded... please let there be an RTS play mode!

I have played all of x-com 3 with ONLY RTS and won. It does require strategic thinking but in a different way to turn based games. Like the difference between say CIV III and RON (both of which I own and love). Both require strategic thinking, just in different ways using different tactics. In my mind, it’s important to give the player the choice between RTS and turn based combat.

PS. RTS rocks….but so does turn based :rock:

#46 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 04 November 2004 - 07:38 PM

I like TB, but for battles I prefer RTS!, X-Com 3 in RTS same here!

#47 JakeDrake

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 10:52 AM

Since the goal of Xenocide right now is to provide an updated new version of Xcom, I would suggest that you make Turn-based the default and primary (in terms of playtesting) mode. The option to go to RTS is very important to many people it seems so I think that decision is pretty easy to make.
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#48 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 05 November 2004 - 03:14 PM

It is going to be TB the V1, that's the only thing I don't like.

#49 Tuoppi

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Posted 06 November 2004 - 07:02 AM

I prefer pauseable realtime over turn-based. Apoc worked really well in realtime, and it was far more playable that way. Some form of command queue and inventory manipulating time consumption were missing and needed, but in realtime some basic (cheat) strategies and stupidities are naturally avoided. (If anyone remembers "Total Annihilation", there is a good command queuing system. Just press shift, and orders are queued.) It should be needless to say, but this is again version x.x stuff.

#50 Qonfused

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Posted 07 November 2004 - 04:19 PM

Total Annihilation *rocked*. and xenocide should be turn-based
My doctor says that I have a malformed public duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fiber, and that I am therfore exused from saving Universes.