ART - Environmental Models

[Guest Jim69]

What is that plant supposed to be? presumably some drug of some kind, or you would not all be so excited.

Clueless strikes again ::

 

OK, if peeps are happy about including weed into the game then I'm happy with it It would be pretty funny, I just thought there might b a few who were offended by it ( I often find there are ).

 

Just make the leaves more bushy I've never seen a puff plant like that is that anorexic b4

 

Edit: Instancing is like a copy, yes. IIRC then it means that if u change the original then the rest change as well but not the other way around. However in this usage I'd imagine that it is basically a copy.

Edited August 12, 2003 by Jim69

[Guest drewid]

Yep. In a 3d package instancing is where you have multiple copies of a single object, and altering one of them alters them all.

 

In a game setting it is keeping a single object in RAM, then copying it around the world "live". so you only have the ram overhead of a single plant, but you can throw enough around the screen to keep Cheech and Chong happy for a long time.

 

It's marginally slower I think, but not by much.

 

Another thing we could do is billboarding, which is very fast and useful for filling areas with flat sprites of plant life. You give the engine a locator where the base of each plant would be and the engine draws a camera facing poly based on this position and plots a texture on it. You can also vary the colour, transparency and size of the sprite on the fly. You need to pass in a default scale and texture name to use.

 

Some games seed an area with a particular material type, so you could have a material called BILLBOARD_WHEAT, and apply it to a patch of ground then the code fills it with locators and plots the sprites. I'm pretty sure the grass was done like this in "Serious Sam".

 

The sprites always face the camera, so some camera moves can show up the technique, but it's surprising what you can get away with. At work we are building palm trees with a mixture of billboard and 3d leaves, the billboard gives them bulk, and the 3d leaves hide the flatness of the billboard. It works better than I thought it would even up to quite steep angles looking down.

[Guest Jim69]

What, so the RAM only loads 1 instance of the model and just replicates it across the screen? Could this be used in other things like building blocks or would the destruction copy across all the instances?

[miceless]

Hehe, shoot at one building and they ALL fall down. That would save so much time and ammo.

 

Sounds like a clever idea. I like the sound of the palm tree method you are using. I can see how it might work.

 

And off topic I go...

What do you do at work Drewid? Do you make games?

[Cubik]

"The sprites always face the camera, so some camera moves can show up the technique, but it's surprising what you can get away with"

 

Yeah, just check out the trees and bushes in Battlefield:1942. The leaves and fir are made using this method.

[red knight]

We might be able to save a bit of memory by instancing stuff like plants.

whadaya fink RK?

 

if there's a lot of bushes in a park or corn in a field it could soon add up.

You can instance 3 or 4 of each class of and use them, the other way arround is to use vertex programs to modify the skeleton of a plant slighly so you get different plants. Unreal 2 use that technique to animate the smaller plants (like grass).. Or maybe a combination of both.

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[Guest drewid]

What, so the RAM only loads 1 instance of the model and just replicates it across the screen? Could this be used in other things like building blocks or would the destruction copy across all the instances?

some things are copied between instances and some things arent' I guess it's down to what you want the code to do. for instance (no pun intended), the pool game we are doing at work can have instances with different textures applied,( the mapping co-ords and number of materials stays the same) but if we used vertex lighting it would apply to all the models.

 

I think destruction is effectively swapping one model for another so that would be ok.

[Guest Jim69]

Really? That could drop the strain on the engine significantly if we can try to keep generic blocks for everything. One question: This sorta relates to this topic, how much more of a strain on the comp would it be if the maps were say 5 streets big as opposed to the 1 street proposed at the mo? Surely a lot of things could be replicated across? What about 10 streets? Or is it that we won't know until the engine is done?

 

I guess this is more of a programming question, but it helps the modellers here know how big the maps will be, and ergo what kind of things u could add into there without wasting space. For example a park, one 1 street it would waste space, but on 5 streets...

[Breunor]

The current terror site layout proposed is to have 2x2=4 city blocks, with an intersection in the middle and half of a road going around the outside edge. This modular chunk can be tiled if we determine the system can handle more, so the next step out would be 2x4=8 blocks. We can keep building from there. The mall idea sounded really good too, so you'd have the interior of a shopping mall or a strip mall as options.

[Guest Jim69]

K, we'd just ave 2 decide on how much we can throw at the lower spec. machines. Maybe an option for lower spec comps 2 ave smaller maps?

[j'ordos]

Or we use different textures, small ones for low-end comps, and bigger ones for high-end comps.

[Breunor]

I think the plan is to start with the current 2x2 layout, and as we increase the minimum requirements for the PC we can increase the size of the sites as well. But we'll just have to test the current minimum specs once we have a working battlescape and see how it holds up. If it's not an issue, then we can increase the tile size until there's a noticeable slowdown, and step back one from that.

[Guest drewid]

Extra geometry isn't so much of a problem in an isometric game as the amount drawn is pretty consistent compared to somethign like an FPS.

 

As a guide figure the pool game I am working on gets a good 50fps frame rate drawing 50k polys and frames out at 100k polys, (the scene has 170Kish). That's running on a geforce 4. It gets a reasonably steady 60 on a PS2 (roughly equivalent to a well coded Ati ragePro). I can't get figures for between 50k and 100k because that drop is due to our occlusion culling running, so I'm not sure where exactly the cutoff is.

[Guest Jim69]

So, does what's on screen still need some processor space? ( sorry if I'm draggin off topic, I'm just interested )

[SupSuper]

i just "copied" the table i have my computer on (and lots of other stuff) to 3ds max. looks neat, however i can't figure ouy why does it render transparent <_>

[j'ordos]

Well, because this is NOT a render

 

Where is it transparent then? Is there another piece of wood between the two legs or what?

 

edit: or do you mean it turns transparent when you render it?

Edited October 5, 2003 by j'ordos

[SupSuper]

Well, because this is NOT a render

 

Where is it transparent then? Is there another piece of wood between the two legs or what?

 

edit: or do you mean it turns transparent when you render it?

i DO mean it turns transparent when i render it (thus why i posted a screenshot directly from 3ds max).

 

hmmm... now i can't open the MAX file, although it works fine (even its thumbnail shows up).

[j'ordos]

Reinstall 3dsmax4?

 

You are sure you did not apply a material to the table with opacity set to 100%?

How did you construct the table? Maybe the normals of the faces that table consists out are pointing inwards?

 

Looks like your file is corrupt, but you might be able to try opening a file in the autoback folder in 3dsmax, the program saves automatically every so often.

[Breunor]

Once you get it working again, definitely keep making furniture like that, we need a wide range of items. When you look at it from the bird's eye view, just delete any faces you can't see from that angle.

[SupSuper]

i've tried reinstalling 3ds max, but it keeps not wanting to open the MAX file of the wooden table. i remade the table and got the same result after saving and trying to load.

 

hmmm... the table does have a 100% oppacity texture :Blush:

 

and 3ds max gives me the same error when loading the files in the autobak folder

Edited October 5, 2003 by SupSuper

[j'ordos]

Oops, I meant: opacity set to 0%, 100% is opaque, 0% is completely transparent.

 

So you made it exactly the same and it didn't work again? Strange

[SupSuper]

indeed. it seems anything i save from now on i can't load (i tried), which means the saving system is corrupted. however, the first model i did with 3ds max (the missile) still loads

 

maybe i'll try to get 3ds max 5

Edited October 5, 2003 by SupSuper

[Guest Jim69]

i've tried reinstalling 3ds max, but it keeps not wanting to open the MAX file of the wooden table. i remade the table and got the same result after saving and trying to load.

 

hmmm... the table does have a 100% oppacity texture :Blush:

 

and 3ds max gives me the same error when loading the files in the autobak folder

1. Don't use an opaqeity (sp?) texture, all this would do ( I think ) is create a pattern of invisibility ( such as a sheen on glass effect ) Use the diffuse map.

 

2. What exactly does the error say?

[SupSuper]

i've tried reinstalling 3ds max, but it keeps not wanting to open the MAX file of the wooden table. i remade the table and got the same result after saving and trying to load.

 

hmmm... the table does have a 100% oppacity texture :Blush:

 

and 3ds max gives me the same error when loading the files in the autobak folder

1. Don't use an opaqeity (sp?) texture, all this would do ( I think ) is create a pattern of invisibility ( such as a sheen on glass effect ) Use the diffuse map.

 

2. What exactly does the error say?

1. ok then. first i gotta figure out the problem with 3ds max

 

2. just "File Open Failed: C:\3dsmax\Scenes\MyScenes\WoodenTable.max" <_>

 

edit: i found a solution to my problem. all i have to do is save my models as 3DS. they may lose all texture data but it's better than nothing

Edited October 5, 2003 by SupSuper

[Breunor]

It all seems like a ruse by your computer to get you to try out blender and milkshape...

 

That's fine if it saves to 3ds format, since that's the format you need to submit stuff in.

[SupSuper]

ok, here's the last remake of the table.

[SupSuper]

and here's the 3ds file.

 

next i'm gonna do a chair to go with the table.

WoodenTable.3ds

Edited October 6, 2003 by SupSuper

[j'ordos]

How'd you get it working again?

 

edit: why is it called: 'missile.3ds'?

 

edit2: sheesh, you make one remark and they immediately edit their post <_>

Edited October 6, 2003 by j'ordos

[SupSuper]

How'd you get it working again?

 

edit: why is it called: 'missile.3ds'?

edit: i found a solution to my problem. all i have to do is save my models as 3DS. they may lose all texture data but it's better than nothing

whoops, wrong file :Blush: fixed it now.

i also fixed the transparent render problem by doing like Jim told me to do and used a diffuse map.

[Breunor]

As you probably won't see them from an overhaed view, I would lose the supports that are running under the table top. If that's textured already, could you post a zip with both the table and texture? Thanks!

[SupSuper]

As you probably won't see them from an overhaed view, I would lose the supports that are running under the table top. If that's textured already, could you post a zip with both the table and texture? Thanks!

well, the texture was made by 3ds max and isn't in a file (i gave the model a wood map, not a file map - in case that makes any sense ).

true, i could lose the supports but i just thought it would look weird to put it here as a floating table

[Breunor]

Not the main legs going down to the floor, but what looks like a 2x2 attached to the bottom of the table top is what I meant. Wood map makes sense, no problem there I have several wood grain textures that can be mapped.

[SupSuper]

Not the main legs going down to the floor, but what looks like a 2x2 attached to the bottom of the table top is what I meant. Wood map makes sense, no problem there I have several wood grain textures that can be mapped.

ah, that's part of my real table's support

i'll remove it and put the new 3DS as soon as possible.

[SupSuper]

i made a chair (based on real one) to go with the table, more or less to scale in relation to the table.

i'll update the table when i remember to. after all, i'm sick, i can't remember everything then again, i'm not sick enough to not be able to use the computer

 

screenshot:

[SupSuper]

and 3ds:

WoodenChair.3ds

[Breunor]

Coolio, reminds me a little of Ikea furniture. Perhaps you could continue with that style, and make a futon-like couch or chairs, perhaps a floor lamp as well? Ikea's web site has plenty of design ideas, too bad they don't have a fabric swatch closeup we could use for a texture! That sounds like a new task for those who would accept it, look for a tileable texture we can use for fabric. Then we can make several furniture pieces and swap textures for variety, just like we can do for buildings.

 

Edit: Also, I added your table and chair into the assetlist, just let me know when there are updates. Thanks!

Edited October 10, 2003 by Breunor

[mikker]

68 polys is ok for a chair. we just need a fance map to put on it.

[Guest Jim69]

Yet very small. I think you have used a wood effect in your 3D program? Looks better if you get a real picture of wood, then scale it down to around 128x128. But if Brue's got one anyway...

[Breunor]

I've now updated the Asset List to include some of these textures. I'm in the process of renaming all the links, but since there's around 200 it will take me a bit to do. But if you scroll down the asset list to the bottom you'll see the current updated links. Just click a link to show the texture, then you can right click and save it. Once I have them renamed I'll organize them a bit as well into walls (outer/inner), floors, roofing, etc. If anyone has additional textures, please let me know and we'll add the files and links to the assetlist. Thanks!

 

And as a reminder in general, if you have items you're working on, let me know and I'll put you in the list. There are still hundreds of models in this section to do.

[Jenny]

I'm really impressed with what you guys can come up with, keep up the good work!

[Guest Jim69]

Hey

 

I've been working on putting some of the pieces together into a building model that can be used, I will eventually make this model into a 15mx15m chunk that can be put into a random map. It isn't anywhere near finished as you can see however I thought I should show I am actually doing something, as possibly get some feedback The aim is as much to find any problems that will arise now and sort them out rather than the last minute. There's been things I've had to adjust and things I still would like to adjust but hopefully when I'm finished everyone will have a really good idea of how to do the models easily with the minimum frustration. I'll be working on it when I can but until then here is what I have so far.

[j'ordos]

Here's a table with chair set, for use in Breunor's mall? table is 81 polygons, one chair is 82, but if needed I can reduce that some more.

Edited November 22, 2003 by j'ordos

[Vaaish]

maybe see how many polys you can save by making hard corners on the chairs? looks great though.

[j'ordos]

I can make those corners straight, but it loses some of it's appeal. It probably won't matter with the zoom levels of the battlescape though, and together with deleting some unseen faces, polycount for the chair is now at 54.

Edited November 23, 2003 by j'ordos

[Vaaish]

That should work better. keep the hogher poly one in case we can squeeze it in.

[Breunor]

Those will be great j'ordos. Here's a question, don't know if it would work. Can you make the chair's legs out of a flat 2 poly piece, and put a transparent alpha map texture on it? The way the ladder for the oil/fuel tank was done? Maybe it only works for the bottom part, as the others would disappear/reappear as you rotate around them. Just curious, your 54 poly chair will be fine.

[j'ordos]

Well, that would require an extra alpha map, right? And aren't those (edit: texture maps in general) more of a limiting factor with low-end video cards than a few polygons? Edited November 24, 2003 by j'ordos

[Breunor]

Quite right, I don't know if all models get the alpha map for free, or if it adds to the texture size. IIRC all textures in the scene load into video memory, but just the visible polys are rendered. So if the alpha map is additional it wouldn't be worth it.

[red knight]

As a design constrain dont add too much textures for unimportant materials, if a little more polygons can do the trick... Simple textured polygons most of the time are cheaper than simple polygons with lots of complex texture effects to achieve the same result..

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[j'ordos]

An information/reception desk? 86 polygons, don't mind the chairs

Edited November 25, 2003 by j'ordos