Aircraft Types And Escorts

[tzuchan]

I was thinking about the types of aircrafts we had in X-Com, and felt that something that might make the gameplay better:

In X-Com, we had the following aircrafts:

 

Interceptor --> One of two basic aircrafts. Is the only means of bringing down UFOs at first.

Skyranger --> Second of two basic aircraft, intially the only means of delivering soldiers

Firestorm --> First of the UFO tech aircrafts, faster better meaner version of the Interceptor

Lighting --> Second of the UFO tech, Crossbreed of the Firestorm and Skyranger

Avenger --> Ultimate Fighter/Transport

 

At first glance, they all seem to fit into nice unique roles, but I've a question, how many of you guys ever built the Lighting? I know I didn't. It didn't really seem all that useful to me because the Firestorm is better at taking out UFOs than it, while both the Skyranger and Avenger could carry HWPs while it can't.

 

So instead of making a stopgap like the Lighting, how about we try something else. Here's my idea:

 

Rapid Response Transport

Faster than even the Avenger, but can only carry say 6 to 8 soldiers but can't carry HWPs. it doesn't even needs to have weapons.

Role is to carry a crack team of soldiers in response to events like terror sites or such where you have to get there fast.

 

So what do you guys think?

 

Here's another idea:

Escort UFOs.

For bigger UFOs, like the Harvestors or Terror ships, they have say 3-4 little UFOs like the ones Drewid sketched defending them, so when you send interceptors, they'll try to intercept your interceptors, preventing you from knocking the UFOs out of the sky, and if you succeed in crashing the big UFO but there are still some of the interceptor UFOs around, they'll try to intercept your transports.

[mikker]

I never build them. We could use new types indeed, and the RRT sounds great. UFOs with escorts? Hmmm...perhaps. Some scouts? But then we really do need to lower the amount of aliens in bigger UFOs. Like, a battleship, with 3 large scouts... filled with ethernal?

 

But then, the airbattle is in top-speed, and if you shot down escorts at diffrent times, they would not crash at same "Tacitical" location. So you would rarely see more then 1 UFO at same spot.

 

What about when you shot down an UFO over another crash/land site? Will you battle 2 UFOs then?

[tzuchan]

I was thinking along the line that the escort UFOs can only be "destroyed" and not crashed, something like the very small UFO that carries one alien in the original X-Com but better armed and harder to hit.

 

So you won't get a crash site for shooting down the escorts, but it'll make intercepting larger UFOs more than just outnumbering them with interceptors.

 

If time isn't "frozen" when your interceptors are duking it out with the UFOs, maybe you could have like several interceptors dogfighting with the escorts while you try to bring down the larger UFO.

 

It could make for very interesting tactics in the Geoscape itself as you have to lure away or destroy the escorts in order to bring down the main UFO without having to worry about your interceptor being shot down from behind.

 

As to the overlapping crash sites, I guess we could go back to the original X-Com and let the player choose which site to target...

[mikker]

"It could make for very interesting tactics in the Geoscape itself as you have to lure away or destroy the escorts in order to bring down the main UFO without having to worry about your interceptor being shot down from behind."

 

That sounds very high-tech...I never use more then 1 inteceptor BTW. It would be kind of a hard task to lure escorts away, and attack the large one, with just 1 interceptor. I doubt it will be fun in the long run. Think of, that the pilots acturly do crazy manuovers. you are just a commander sitting at base, watching the battle. You have no acturly control over the pilot, but you can give him orders, like being more agreesive, and perhaps returning to base, if you don't want to lose your inteceptor, and you see the pilot are turning crazy, and WANTS to take down that darn terror ship.

 

"As to the overlapping crash sites, I guess we could go back to the original X-Com and let the player choose which site to target..."

 

I ment you could assult 2 UFOs at 1 site. It would be harder, nu doubt, but it would be kind of cool, having more then 1 target.

[tzuchan]

About the two UFOs mission idea, sounds like it could be quite fun...

Don't know if it'll be easy to implement into the map generator or not...

[Anthonius Runeblaze]

Escort UFO's sounds like a nice idea, and I'd also like to see fighter wings instead of lone aircraft. Usually, in real life, aircraft are launched in at least pairs, and given this, a lot of tactics can be used for this, such as Drag, Sandwich, The Grinder, and Offensive and Defensive Splits.

 

This way, your pilots can actually have somewhat of an advantage in tactics instead of just flying headlong into a barrage of plasma fire, AND it leaves room for taking down enemy escorts (for example, The Grinder is a technique used by the USAF in such a way that aircraft maneuver to fire salvos of AAMs at a superior enemy force beyond visual range, giving them a certain level of protection against counterattacks).

 

Having escorts for Skyrangers and equivalent would also be nice, if we allow UFO's to intercept X-COM aircraft (think alien air bases on Earth). It adds an extra bit of difficulty to it, as unless an aircraft has 360* radar ala AWACS, or rear-radar ala Su-37, UFO's could attack from behind and effectively blow your unmaneuverable, unarmed Skyranger out of the sky before it could say "Unidentified aircraft at six o'clock".

[Deimos]

I regularly build the Lightining. Ok so it might not be good at shooting craft down and it might not be fast or be able to carry HWP's but it kicks donkey for the amount of troops it can send out. I mean 28 troops in flight armour packing Heavy plasmas, Blaster launchers, stun bombs and alien grenades is just perfect for launching against battleships and alien bases. Those extra 2 troops can mean the difference between sucess and failure sometimes

[Breunor]

I'm not sure what the armor stats for the craft are, but does the Lightning have lots of armor? That would help account for why it can't carry HWP. So having a heavily armored transport that can shoot down the ufo does have a spot in your force. If it's a battleship, make sure some interceptor class ships escort it.

[Deimos]

Hmm, the weirdest thing just happened. The lightining only carries 12 guys according to the equip screen. Which kind of sucks. I was sure that I used to load up 28 guys in it, oh well I must have been wrong. It appears that the lighting has a damage capacity of 800, the avenger 1200 and the skyranger 150.

 

I don't understand the purpose of the Lightining anymore. It doesn't have much of an advantage over the skyranger in terms of transport capability and it's nowhere near as useful as the avenger in terms of damage capacity and weapon capability. Not to mention it only has one door so it can't even take HWP's. I had thought that it's redeeming feature was its increased troop carrying capability but obviously not.

 

Bit of a red herring overall and not much point to manufacturing them, never mind about actually using them in combat.

 

I was sure they used to be better. Oh well maybe in ours they can be made to be useful. Maybe increase the troop capabilty to 28 and lower the armour rating. Keep the weapon hardpoint. It'll have to be tested in terms of gameplay balance but it should be an improvement.

[tzuchan]

I'm not sure what the armor stats for the craft are, but does the Lightning have lots of armor? That would help account for why it can't carry HWP. So having a heavily armored transport that can shoot down the ufo does have a spot in your force. If it's a battleship, make sure some interceptor class ships escort it.

Personally, the idea of a Fighter/Transport never erally did make sense to me...

For example, the Avenger might be faster and tougher than the Firestorm, but other than one or two Avengers to carry my soldiers, I only build Firestorms and only use Firestorms to intercept UFOs.

 

Even though the plasma beams that I equip my Avenger with have longer range than most of the UFOs, it didn't strike me as prudent to risk losing all my experienced soldiers when Firestorms can do the same job just as well.

 

That's actually my second reason to suggest the Escort UFOs, Then Transports that can defend themselves really make sense.

[Guest drewid]

The lightning was a bit useless IIRC. Also the most "alien" of the human craft so it ought to have some advantage. (speed?)

I never bothered with it.

 

Prolly time for a rethink.

[tamat]

I think than faster aircrafts can't land on forest or farms, why not use helis or maybe ospreys? slowers but can carry more troops (12 soldiers), maybe a chinook, cant intercept UFOs but are more coherent to incursions on inexplorate terrains. Then if you want to carry troops faster you can use an aircraft with vertical engine like harriers but they are really limited on carrying space (6 troops max).

 

http://www.simlabs.arc.nasa.gov/photos/images/aircraft/chinook.jpeg

 

And what about paratroopers? When you carry some soldiers using a paratroops aircraft the ship dont land and soldiers appear on different places on the battlesfiled. The problems is the paratroopers can leave the battle until all alien are dead.

Using paratroopers you can carry more troops than using a aircraft but and cant carry HWG.

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/osprey/photo.gallery/6.paratroopers.jpg

 

Two ideas easy to implement and really fun.

[Guest stewart]

When I play Xcom with my artificial rules restrictions. I "pretend" that the Avenger can /only/ be used for cydonia. This artificially creates a reason to make firestorms and lighnings. Maybe we should do the same with Xenocide?

[Anthonius Runeblaze]

I think than faster aircrafts can't land on forest or farms, why not use helis or maybe ospreys? slowers but can carry more troops (12 soldiers), maybe a chinook, cant intercept UFOs but are more coherent to incursions on inexplorate terrains. Then if you want to carry troops faster you can use an aircraft with vertical engine like harriers but they are really limited on carrying space (6 troops max).

 

http://www.simlabs.arc.nasa.gov/photos/images/aircraft/chinook.jpeg

 

And what about paratroopers? When you carry  some soldiers using a paratroops aircraft the ship dont land and soldiers appear on different places on the battlesfiled. The problems is the paratroopers can leave the battle until all alien are dead.

Using paratroopers you can carry more troops than using a aircraft but and cant carry HWG.

 

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/osprey/photo.gallery/6.paratroopers.jpg

 

Two ideas easy to implement and really fun.

Tsk. Ospreys. As long as the large, fast aircraft is capable of VTOL, I'd say it can land wherever it wants as long as it's careful not to land on a house.

 

Now there's an idea - picking a landing point for the aircraft, and vectoring it in.

 

Though paratroopers sound like fun, it wouldn't really be useful for anything other than terror missions (instant troop dispersion!) as then you'd have the issue of recovering your troops.

[mamutas]

I can't think about real-life craft which is a mix between interceptor and a transport. Why there should be one in XCOM?

I suggest to have lightning as an upgrade for skyranger: no weapons, more troops, faster. Then avenger be the only ship for space trips: nor weapons, superfast, very many soldiers.

[stjones]

Hmm, the weirdest thing just happened. The lightining only carries 12 guys according to the equip screen. Which kind of sucks. I was sure that I used to load up 28 guys in it, oh well I must have been wrong. It appears that the lighting has a damage capacity of 800, the avenger 1200 and the skyranger 150.

.

The 28 soldiers on a Lightning is an XcomUtil feature. Personally, I liked the Lightning even when it could only hold 12 because you can see and shoot out the sides and exit from the corners. It is much safer getting out of a Lightning than any other Xcom craft.

 

I would like to see some special purpose craft like an AWACS or have an AWACS-like radar that you can mount any craft in place of a weapon. If you have long-range mobile radar, you can eliminate radar from the bases and greatly reduce the chance that the base is detected by the aliens.

[tzuchan]

The 28 soldiers on a Lightning is an XcomUtil feature.  Personally, I liked the Lightning even when it could only hold 12 because you can see and shoot out the sides and exit from the corners.  It is much safer getting out of a Lightning than any other Xcom craft.

 

I would like to see some special purpose craft like an AWACS or have an AWACS-like radar that you can mount any craft in place of a weapon.  If you have long-range mobile radar, you can eliminate radar from the bases and greatly reduce the chance that the base is detected by the aliens.

Personally, that sounds like creative use of bugs in the game than the plane being acutally useful .

 

As to the AWACs idea, I think somebody in the forum mentioned it before. Sounds like a nice idea, but seems like it can get abit unbalanced, especially if we let the player access that tech early in the game. How about since the aliens "track down" bases due to the radar, the AWACs plane is very exposed to them and as a result, they can track and shoot it down?

[Deimos]

The 28 soldiers on a Lightning is an XcomUtil feature.  Personally, I liked the Lightning even when it could only hold 12 because you can see and shoot out the sides and exit from the corners.  It is much safer getting out of a Lightning than any other Xcom craft.

That's probably where I remember it from then

 

I think that we should stick with the craft that are present in the game currently skyranger, Lightining, Firestorm and avenger but we tweak the numbers. I knew there was a reason for having 28 soldiers in a firestorm, simply that it provides better tactical options for the player. 12 soldiers and a weapon IMO isn't much use to anyone. Much better to lose the weapon hardpoint and up the carrying capability. The negative aspect is that you can't carry HWP's and there is only room for one soldier to exit at a time which could be very nasty in terror missions.

[Breunor]

I agree with keeping the list of craft from the original for game balance, and if there's time prior to release of v1.0 we can try to develop something else to replace any questionable craft. As mentioned there should be a rebalancing of some of the stats to make each craft valuable in its own right, adjusting the speed or armor to balance with its payload capacity and level of technology.

 

Having a vtol troop transport based on a jet plane rather than a helo is possible in the near-future reality of Xenocide I think. I hope so, since we've finished modelling a skyranger equivalent already!

 

12 male and female soldiers with alloy weapons and armor might average 225 pounds/100 kilos each, so 2750 pounds/1200 kilos total. That's like 3-4 modern bombs, which I think a harrier can easily do a vtol with (as it's not a full load). So increase the hull of the plane, and increase the size of the engines to match, add a dash of Xenocide/near future reality, and you have a believable system. Just my 2 cents, after tax and adjusted for inflation (so my opinion's not worth anything...) But since this is a moddable game, certainly make a helo model that matches the stats for the skyranger and it can be added to the system. We are hoping to use multiple versions of each craft in the game. My main suggestion would be to design it to explain how it can travel several thousand miles relatively quickly to reach a site in time. So maybe jet thrust assisted helo?

[Guest stewart]

I would like to see some special purpose craft like an AWACS or have an AWACS-like radar that you can mount any craft in place of a weapon.  If you have long-range mobile radar, you can eliminate radar from the bases and greatly reduce the chance that the base is detected by the aliens.

Isn't that more-or-less called a skyranger?

[Breunor]

Some comments from a semi-official web site regarding the turboprop Osprey:

 

"The Osprey can hold up to 24 troops and carry up to 20,000 lb (9,072 kg) in its cargo bay, which is 5.7 ft wide by 5.5 ft high by 20.8 ft long (1.72 x 1.68 x 6.35 m). The cargo bay has fold-down seats along the walls and a ramp that is used to load or deploy cargo and troops... The Osprey's top speed is 315 mph (507 kph), which is twice as fast as a helicopter's top speed. Range is 270-580 miles [depending on load]"

 

Below is an extremely simple/cheasy mock up of an osprey without the propellers. I think everyone would agree that a top speed of 315 mph doesn't cut it, now does the range. It is slower than WW2 fighters, and it's range isn't even noticeable on a geoscape scale. It does have the nice feature that its wings and propellers fold up to the body for tight storage. So the turboprop is replaced with jet engines that have Xenocide efficiency (more efficient than possible today), so it can travel as far as a regular skyranger. What a coincidence!

 

This mockup is just to get input on whether the main wing should stay as is or be converted to a delta, as well as anything else to make is feasible. Also there is the original picture of course. It's nice that the interior bay has almost the correct dimensions for the skyranger, just a foot or two higher, wider and longer.

 

If nobody's working on this yet, I can play with it some, but if somebody is I'll drop it. Any general comments on changing the design from the original?

[tzuchan]

IMHO, If you give the Osprey delta wings and still have the engines at the tip, I'd say it'll look pretty funny. Since you already got a mockup, why no play around with it some and show us the results?

 

If you really plan on making it a speedy transport, and are planning on giving it jet engines, I'd think that you might as well stick the engines onto the side of the fuseluge and give 'em thrust vectoring.

[Puasonen]

I always thought that lightning is useless. Why?

 

1. Even skyranger can carry more people

2. No tanks

3. The range, oh, the range.

 

I remember when I first time built lightning, I was sure that it's great and sold skyrangers. But h*ll NO! I couldn't get to almost any missions because of that stupid small range. Every time it ran out of gas. AAAARGH!

 

Well it wouldn't be a bad idea to make it even a little more usefull in version 1.0 already?

[Guest stewart]

I'd recommend making the Avenger LESS useful. Just make it rocket that can ONLY go to cydonia. Suddenly the firestorm and lightning are more useful.

[LordT]

I'd recommend making the Avenger LESS useful.  Just make it rocket that can ONLY go to cydonia.  Suddenly the firestorm and lightning are more useful.

Nah, sometimes you REALLY need that speed to intercept Battleships and the firestorm is too weak unless you take 3 or 4 with you and the lightning... well one weapon slot isnt all that much...

The Avenger is the Ultimate Craft for a reason.

(besides it's better looking than the others )

[GreatGold]

Hey -

 

First non-registration post . So I had a thought; different people like different things, right? Maybe your overall strategy requires a lot of HWP's...or maybe you rely more on mass swarm tactics with your troops.

 

So, why have only a set number of aircraft with set roles? I think it would be kind of neat if you could start with a "stock" fighter or transport and as you research tech add on to it. Want it to be faster...add better engines..rather it be slower but have a troop carrying capacity...add seats. Better yet, have the ability to built a aircraft from scratch with a specific aim in mind (not just limited to Firestorm, Avenger, Skyranger, etc). Your air fleet, a vastly important aspect of the game, should be more flexible to your overall strategy. You have the world's "black" budget behind you, seems strange to have such a limited set of options for taking down the aliem armada...

 

Perhaps some additions would need a certain research discovery and material to produce. Other would just be damn exspensive or take a lot of time. Obviously, a system could be thought up to support and balance this engineering research/production.

 

Granted, I do not know how this would play into the overall research scheme, so this very well might be imcompatable. But X-COM always had tech-shops and I thought it was a shame that I could only use it for a very small subset of items.

 

What do you all think? Just to sum it up: research and built your fleet of aircraft tailored to your own strategy. Not the reverse, as was in X-COM, where you had a certain type of plane and planned around that. Of course, in the early days this makes sense, but looses purpose later in the game. Put those scientists and engineers to use!

 

So, now its up to you to tear this idea apart! Maybe theres something in it, maybe not. Whatya all think?

 

Thanks,

Gold

[email protected]

 

ps - I love the idea of escorts! As well as for your own transports...you shoot down a Harvester, the aliens are bound to notice, might be a smart idea to escort your own transport with a fighter to prevent IT from getting shot down? Plus, multiple battles on the ground would require a new degree of strategic planning...love it!

[[[Micah]]]

GreatGold:

 

We've planned Xenocide v1 to be essentially a remake of UFO Defense. That means there won't be many new gameplay ideas implemented except bug fixes and other minor things, which is why we are only talking about the craft that are in UFO Defense.

[GreatGold]

Yup -

 

Made this post before I realized what was going on per-se . Got it now.

 

Gold

[Cubik]

Heh, got a really wierd bug once when I played UFO. I was looking over my planes when I sudden noticed that some was not quite right. I have some how acqueird a UFO! It could do anything, it just sat there like the metal soup-plate it was, but it looked pretty cool and I could load 255 marines into it .

 

Has this happend to any of you guys?

[[[Micah]]]

Heh, got a really wierd bug once when I played UFO. I was looking over my planes when I sudden noticed that some was not quite right. I have some how acqueird a UFO! It could do anything, it just sat there like the metal soup-plate it was, but it looked pretty cool and I could load 255 marines into it .

 

Has this happend to any of you guys?

No.....

[j'ordos]

yup, got that once, but it vanished once I left the base screen so I didn't know you could load 255 marines into it...

Not bad for a firestorm :wink: (that's what it was, if I remember correctly, it looks like an ufo)

[Guest stewart]

It'd have to have been the Firestorm graphic but it might not have been a firestorm as far as the Xcom Game was concerned; still weird and never happened to me.

[red knight]

It happens to me once... it was when i went to a ground UFO, couldnt use it much (dont remember why)... and it was definitly a UFO so that must be a Easter Egg...

 

Greetings

Red Knight

[Blood Angel]

I thought maybe the Lightning could make use of gravlift technology, so instead of using a ramp, there's a gravlift in the middle, and you deploy from there. It would be 2x2, so HWPs could fit, and there would be a weapon hardpoint. I never liked the look of the lightning or the firestorm, so we should have it so that the Lightning and the Firestorm look like the Avenger, classic plane design with Alien Alloy armour, and the Avenger is just like a UFO, with 1 hardpoint, designed to go to Mars.

 

Alternatively, have it the way it is, but the dorsal hardpoint on the Lightning can actually fire. Fit it with a fusion ball and vapourise 2 buildings, or the plasma beam and cause some havoc.

Edited September 5, 2005 by Blood Angel

[Snakeman]

I like the idea of taking the basic shape of a ship hull offered you and making refinements to it based on your needs of the time.

 

For example, using Blood Angel's Lightning analogy: You want room for a HWP onboard it, then you'll want the center of the craft outfitted with a 2x2 gravlift. Now that gravlift becomes the main way in or out of the craft plus it then would have 2 more troops in it than a Skyranger would have (1 tank & 12 men vs 1 tank & 10 men for Skyranger).

 

Maybe it could retain its ramp to disembark or not (if the option of putting on side-mounted gun emplacements were in, then a soldier might have to man it which could limit the option of the ramp's use - i.e. could still use it if you only have 3 of 4 arcs covered by guns but not if all 4 arcs had them).

 

Alternatively, maybe you designed the ship to have a lift but you didn't want a HWP along - that's 4 more spaces for troops. Another configuration I'd been pondering for it could be a belly mounted gun like the plasma beam or whatever that's on the roof. That would then mean the gravlift is out and your back to 12 men onboard, but now you have a second heavy turret on it. Whether you'd still have side-mounted weaponry space or not could be tied in directly to how much room on the ship that circuitry takes up.

 

i.e. having two big cannons on ship could mean no side-mounted weaponry, but having one could mean that you can place two smaller side-mounted infantry-type guns.

 

I know this gets into "component management" and that it may result in too much micromanagement, however I think it could fit in well with the template systems we've been discussing in other threads where, once you've set up your initial designs, that would basically be the only portion micromanagement plays in the effort. Then its just a matter of instructing your engineers to build "Lightning Template 1, 2 , 3" etc.

[T-1]

Making the lightning useful: let the one weapon hardpoint useable in the battlescape. Put a fusion ball launcher on there. Bam! No more landed UFO.

[sir_schwick]

Maybe we should re-think how HWPs and Craft are designed or refitted:

 

In general these are complex devices that have to be engineered in whole. That means even minor mods would probably have to be considered from the beginning. This means that maybe instead of having pre-set craft types, what you are researching is families of parts. What you do then is you can 'design ships' or 'design weapons' or 'design HWPs'. Then you set up the specs of whatever your designing and they research it. Of course the more complicated the specs, the longer the research. Once research is done you can build the design. This also opens the window for researching improved versions of Terran craft. In this case you can sell the designs and buy the craft instead of manufacturing it.

[Blood Angel]

I like the idea of researching different craft like HWPs. You can research Standard lightning, Gravlift lightning, Dual Hardpoint-lightning, etc.

[sir_schwick]

Even better than just 'research grav-light lightning' is the fact you just go into a design screen. Then your researchers work on the plans. Its similair to how units were designed in C-Evo and ships designed in Ocean Trader(both ancient titles I realize). That way you could have a tricked out expensive Avenger with 4 grav lights, three decks, 4 cannons, and the max speed for that mass although it would take forever to build at an XCORPS factory. Or you could go with cheaper models that allowed you to fill the sky in short time.

 

These design options are really good if you have an Aeroscape mode, since design choices change performance drastically. Also good would be if you could land multiple craft at a battle site, possibly out of synch(transport two arrives in 20 turns, etc.). Think of what this allows:

 

Now smaller, faster craft would be useful since you can get to vital sites first. 4 Lightnings with grav lifts could let out 8 guys each in less time than a single Avenger while delivering the same guys and performing ground support with the turret, if you design that on the Lightnings. Larger craft woudl be useful for whenever the LZ is really hot or the approach is hot, i.e. alien bases. You could even have HWP specific transport craft that just bring several HWPs to a scene ASAP once the LZ is clear(imagine hard paradropping).

 

Also think about how this could add replay value with the aliens. Suppose that the aliens have actual objectives and do stuff during missions more than just fly around and wait to get killed. Then they have to design ships with the components to do that. Each game different families would be designed so you might not run into the same UFO game after each game. Imagine if it varied based on crew, mission, races, etc. A few random numbers could create an interesting fleet each time.

[Snakeman]

Some games have done a good job in terms of ship designing, and what's been said here by shwick puts a little bit of a spin on the order of when something can get made.

 

Most games along these lines tend to tie everything to the ship hull area, and then to the component area as far as research goes. I think its an interesting twist to be able to design it first, then to research your layout configurations. However, if the hull hadn't been researched yet, it doesn't make much logical sense to jump right into designs for it. I'd wager that if the idea is to hold onto scientists and engineers (to keep them useful and busy earning their keep) you could include any/all steps the player considers worth their investment as far as their war needs go.

 

Anyway, I like the thought also put forth here that perhaps you could research a ship layout, then sell those plans to an outside private firm to make, allowing you to lease/buy the craft directly on the market. Maybe by having done the research first, that cuts costs for you come time to buy/lease, as opposed to letting the outside party both research AND manufacture it. Some good possibilities with this economics-wise at any rate.