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XCOMUFO & Xenocide

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I am changing the system to be a lot simpler.

 

Training Time

 

All skills are learned in month-long blocks. The block starts on the date you start training. This means if a trooper starts on January 20th, they will finish on Februrary 20th. If a trooper starts on March 3rd, they end on April 3rd. No more waiting for the first of the month.

 

Training Facilities

 

The first solution to training facilities is an all-in-one facility that gets added components as research is done. This might work if there is not a lot of space in bases.

 

The better solution is these facilities I will explain below.

 

:) Combat Laboratory - This facility can either raise potential stats.

:) Techincal Laboratory - This facility can raise potential engineering stats.

:) Pilot/Navigation Laboratory - This facility can raise piloting/navigation potential stats.

:) Psionic Laboratory - This facility can train troopers in psionic combat.

 

Trooper Types

 

Trooper refers to any X-COM personnell to that into live fire situations and possibly engage in combat. The type is important to the feat system.

 

:) Soldier - These are the guys with the big guns. They come from elite units and are masters of combat.

:) Combat Engineers - These are recruited, via your request, from your Engineers. Once trained as a combat engineer, they no longer produce things as a normal engineer. Not as much combat stats or abilities, but they are good with demolitions and electronics. Needed to open those pesky UFO doors.

:) Pilots - These are the guys that fly and fight in the air. Best pilots in the world, but not the best shots. With the proper training they can also pilot UFOs, possibly under the aliens noses.

 

What training does

 

Training increases the amount of stat increase with combat experience. That means if Tatyana Maleev earned a base +2 accuracy on a mission, wtih the extra training she earns another +2 or +4. It can also increase stats very very slowly outside combat, for garrisons.

 

Listing of Abilities by Trooper Type/Category

 

Since feats are no longer a part of the system, these are simply lists by trooper type. Advanced Field Medicine comes about with Advanced Medkits. All trooper types gets the COMMON abilities, and the more specific ones are listed by trooper type.

 

COMMON

:) Pistols

:) Light Armour

:) Basic Terran Computer Skills

:) Terran Weapons

:) Laser Weapon

:) Melee Fighting

:) Night Vision

:) Basic Alien Computer Skills

:) Personal Flight

:) Basic Field Medicine

 

SOLDIER

:) Rifles

:) Heavy Weapons

:) Launched Munitions

:) Grenades

:) Repelling

:) Paradroping

:) Stealth Movement

:) Medium Armour

:) Heavy Armour

:) Door Bash

:) Advanced Melee Fighting

:) Gravity Guns

:) MetalStorm Systems

:) Plasma Weapons

 

COMBAT ENGINEER

:) Advanced Terran Computer Skills

:) Terran Electronics

:) Demolition Grade Explosives

:) Shaped Charges

:) Chemical Mechanics

:) Mechanical Repair

:) Advanced Alien Computer SKills

:) Alien Electronics

:) Elerium Mechanics

:) Alien Alloys

:) Alien Power

 

PILOT/NAVIGATOR

:) Small Craft

:) Medium Craft

:) Large Craft

:) Dogfighting

:) Missle Systems

:) Missle Evasion

:) Radar Systems

:) Alien Navigation

:) Alien Propulsion

:) Alien Sensors

 

PSIONIC

:) Resistance

:) Empathy

:) Malignance

 

ADVANCED FIELD MEDICINE(Requires Advanced Medkit)

:) Bleeding

:) Burns

:) Stimulants

:) Fractures

:) Poisons

Edited by sir_schwick
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  • 2 weeks later...

I didn't want to respond to this thread too early, its a lot to digest after all :) So I'll just address a few areas of it for now.

 

What I know I like are the thoughts on Training Facility concepts simply because I like the activity of managing bases (more facilities to make tough choices). However I think with the Surgical one, you could simply have that be your standard medlab facility, and instead, use this one to split what space in it is allocated for who and when.

 

i.e. Which % amouint of space in the Surgical/Medlab is allocated to treating combat wounds on a regular basis, and what other space in it is partitioned off to handle your field training of would-be medkit bearers. So for instance for argument's sake, the lab can only handle 10 people in it at any one time. You decide that 4 will be training to get their basics covered, and the other 6 spaces reserved for incoming wounded (if your reckless with your troops, makes you ponder "Do I add another medlab here? Or do I simply reallocate all the spaces to be for wounded?").

 

I also think that this training idea along with most of the others you should be able to change the training and training space options of the facilities at any time...unlike Psi evaluations. With that one, and probably with Pilot Training, I think the results have to take a month to see a result...Since, I still do like that some things should take a while to uncover, and, I like too the management of personnel with some aspects of this. (Who goes where when, and can I afford to shave something here or there to save time?) etc.

 

On the issue of special abilities or feats, I also like these, but I do wonder whether or not some of these need listing as separate stats on a soldier's sheet given other thoughts that have come up about what other things people would want to be able to manage from that screen (equipment, ship placement options and/or training)...might make those screens spammy, but that's my only worry about that. The functionality aspects of the feats themselves though sound good though,

 

Perhaps instead of stats for all these things being listed separately (apart from others deemed important already - if its using a bar graph approach as the first game), you could condense it into a single sentence at top or bottom, such as "This soldier is <poor at [skill A]>, <good at [skill B]>, & an <expert at [skill C]>." - with regard to training progress.

Edited by Snakeman
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With evaluations or anything, I wanted to eliminate the arbitrary start/end at months start/end. Maybe it could take 30 days from when evaluation started, but this way you do not lose tons of time with stupid start/finish lines. This isn't a mass production system, it is individualized.

 

All feats would be on a feats page that would also show equipment. There you could see eqiupment you are trained, expert, or untrained in.

 

I'm not sure how the last paragraph really works, since training does not heavily affect stats, just stat potential from combat.

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True, I suppose another page could be drummed out. Have the essentials on the bar graphs, and have the feats/other special training listed on another. Besides, if given more room as far as naming soldier's goes at the top of the soldier screen, you can still name them specially to make them stand out at a glance (for assignment purposes).

 

I do see your point also about training durations, and I understand the suck factor of waiting a month to see a result so maybe a compromise there is in order...Make all training a coming-going-as-you-please affair, but perhaps impliment a "training duration for an optimum basic results" thing stipulated in the description of the facility its self once its researched.

 

For example, let's say you want Psi troops not yet assigned to reach a skill level of X. Since we know (using the old game again as example) that the first eval typically gives a skill result from the single digits to around 20 or so, the recommendation in the lab description can say 2-4 months (assuming an average session yields 5-10 points). Now introduce the angle that you can remove and reassign that soldier any time you want to training within that month's period...Just incorporate a slower skill progression than you normally might get by leaving them in the entire time.

 

Also like the first game, I think that if you have no one in a facility and you use them in combat, (at least with Psi here as that did make sense) that those skills cannot grow (you work with the levels he's at)...Just adds to the space concerns of managing soldier training.

 

This said however, I envision what might happen here is that if you get a mission, that then let's the player theoretically assign everyone that will go on that mission a chance to reassign training to those troops before leaving the base. The skill increases are likely able to jump much more when you have training in combination with combat. This in and of its self doesn't appear unbalanced, as typically, most players would probably want their key people who are active the most get dibs on training.

 

I say let this ride as before regarding how Psi training was handled, only limit how many forms of training a soldier can do at any single time. i.e. if he's in Psi Trainig, can he be in Combat Training simultaneously?

 

I would think that if these four or five different training ideas were implimented, that would probably be the smart approach to dealing with this so that your idle soldiers can still make themselves useful space permitting. With also including recommendations on the facility screens for an optimal basic training duration, the player can choose to adhere to those or not as they will, since either way, it'll be at the expense of some skill improvements in other areas.

 

If this got as far as an experimental phase in subsequent version testing, I would then investigate whether tweaking down the number of assignments to lab training was warranted (ie. looking at how fast a soldier could gain abilities across all of them).

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What I meant about duration is that in X-COM all your soldiers startted training on Februrary 1st. In my system if a soldier started training on January 20th, they would finish a block on Februrary 20th. If they started Februrary 7th, they would finish a block on March 7th. That is all, making it so that you did not time your movement of scientists and hiring of troops to months like in original X-COM.

 

This is RPGish in the sense that different classes naturally can train towards certain things faster.

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Ah ok, I misunderstood you. It wasn't that you had to wait for the result, its the starting on the 1st thing.

 

I can see how that's messed up, I mean, with hiring people only needing to wait 72 hours to fly in (you might already be weeding these out by other stats and repeating 4,5, or 6 times per month), then the waiting for training to begin even if space was available.

 

On the issue of these RPG elements in general though, didn't the first game have this since it let you train stats in combat? If this isn't where Xenocide is headed currently, how will things evolve with units as things look now between the two titles? (just want to think more on this to better focus my thoughts)

Edited by Snakeman
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Hmm... I suspect that this is very Fallout influence <_>

Unfortunately, I suspect that this Feats system would clash too much with what Xenocide is about.

 

You see, xenocide is a delicate balance between the personalized characters of a RPG and the faceless soldiers of RTS. As such, you will have anywhere from the barest minimum of ten soldiers(and That's pushing it if you really intend to win the game) to a garrison of ten soldiers at each base plus two strike force of twenty each, resulting in a total of 120 soldiers running around in various bases.

 

Now, as it is, Xenocide will have enough stats that as your strike force grows through it's battles, you start to care about those that shine forth, those that survive what the enemy throws at them and then when they buy the farm, you cry for them.

 

How does this impact your suggested Feats system? When we start off in the game, the player is likely to enjoy the idea of it very much, and expend alot of effort into customizing each and everyone of the strike force. But as his forces grew, and he becomes more focused on the overall strategy if researching weapons and methods to defeat the alien menace, he will then find that assigning soldiers to training and customizing thier individual talents to be very much of a chore. It's fun to do when you have a limited strike force, but when you have to oversee the development of 100+ individuals, it's an unncessary burden.

 

Even in the case that we assume the player will only use it on the strikeforce. Keep in mind that in Xenocide, fresh green recruits are often treated as "Cannon-fodder" literally, and that even experienced soldiers die frequently. Also, the least off skill sets that you provided sound like the player would probrably have to master it inorder to trully excel in the game. This means that he'll have to constantly replace dead specialists and train them up from scratch again.

 

The Feats system works great in games like Fallout where you have, for lack of better term, a group of individual heros that most, if not all, will stick with you from the start to the end. This is not so in Xenocide, Xenocide is about using a covert force of soldiers. And there in lies the difference, soldiers die, heros don't.

 

Nevertheless, the idea of a training room where idle soldiers can increase their stats(albiet at a very slow rate. There's nothing like live combat) is a good one, especially from middle towards endgame, where the enemies are tougher and replacing a elite from scratch can be a very difficult thing.

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Hmm... I suspect that this is very Fallout influence <_<

Unfortunately, I suspect that this Feats system would clash too much with what Xenocide is about.

 

You see, xenocide is a delicate balance between the personalized characters of a RPG and the faceless soldiers of RTS. As such, you will have anywhere from the barest minimum of ten soldiers(and That's pushing it if you really intend to win the game) to a garrison of ten soldiers at each base plus two strike force of twenty each, resulting in a total of 120 soldiers running around in various bases.

 

Now, as it is, Xenocide will have enough stats that as your strike force grows through it's battles, you start to care about those that shine forth, those that survive what the enemy throws at them and then when they buy the farm, you cry for them.

 

How does this impact your suggested Feats system? When we start off in the game, the player is likely to enjoy the idea of it very much, and expend alot of effort into customizing each and everyone of the strike force. But as his forces grew, and he becomes more focused on the overall strategy if researching weapons and methods to defeat the alien menace, he will then find that assigning soldiers to training and customizing thier individual talents to be very much of a chore. It's fun to do when you have a limited strike force, but when you have to oversee the development of 100+ individuals, it's an unncessary burden.

 

 

I agree, and nothing I hate more than spending time on carefully picking feats and then the soldiers dying of a plasma shot. That's what I disliked about UFO:Aftermath, ...one of them.

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Actually the feats don't make your soldiers better, it determines what equipment you can use. This means Rookies cannot use Plasma, Laser weapons. It means rookie pilots and engineers only use terran pistols. This also means that fast soldiers could be taught how to use breaching charges. It also means you could train a combat Pilot who would steal UFOs out from under the alines. HOwever a simplification is in order, as the 120+ soldier part is a good consideration.

 

As for training, training would not incrase your stats. It would increase the potential stats earned from combat. So without training, your troops would benefit very little from combat. With constant training your troops would gain a lot from combat. With equipment specialization, that particular weapon would gain 'combat experience' potential, since it is for a particular piece of equipment. It means if Tatyana Maleev is an expert with a Laser Rifle, she can gain bonuses with Laser Rifles she could not earn wtih combat experience with others. Practically, she goes on two missions and now she has +10 accuracy and response wtih a Laser Rifle versus other weapons. Its not an automatic bonus, but allows weapons to gain 'combat experience potential'. This was written in haste so please feel free to be confused.

 

Also, do you gusy think navigators and combat engineers should be a trooper type with unique skills to them?

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Actually the feats don't make your soldiers better, it determines what equipment you can use.  This means Rookies cannot use Plasma, Laser weapons.  It means rookie pilots and engineers only use terran pistols.  This also means that fast soldiers could be taught how to use breaching charges.  It also means you could train a combat Pilot who would steal UFOs out from under the alines.  HOwever a simplification is in order, as the 120+ soldier part is a good consideration.

 

As for training, training would not incrase your stats.  It would increase the potential stats earned from combat.  So without training, your troops would benefit very little from combat.  With constant training your troops would gain a lot from combat.  With equipment specialization, that particular weapon would gain 'combat experience' potential, since it is for a particular piece of equipment.  It means if Tatyana Maleev is an expert with a Laser Rifle, she can gain bonuses with Laser Rifles she could not earn wtih combat experience with others. Practically, she goes on two missions and now she has +10 accuracy and response wtih a Laser Rifle versus other weapons.  Its not an automatic bonus, but allows weapons to gain 'combat experience potential'.  This was written in haste so please feel free to be confused.

 

Also, do you gusy think navigators and combat engineers should be a trooper type with unique skills to them?

First off, the way rpg's work today, are in no way a good representation of how the real world works, especially the feat system. Its sad the way most rpg’s work, with classes and level-gaining and esp. the buy skill/feat system.

 

I suggest that if we ever where to introduce a rpg element to Xenocide, we should take examples from games like The elder scrolls/morrowind. In these games the only thing you get better at, is the things you do repeatedly. Eks. The only way to learn marksmanship, is to shoot allot.

 

This way, there is no for a soldier to shoot a bunch of aliens, and then suddenly be able to fly, because the player chose to give him a flying feat during levelling (another advantage is that this system is that it requires virtually no maintenance, and therefore no unwanted work.

 

And for GOD’S SAKE, DO NOT INTRODUCE EXP, FEATS OR LEVELS.

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I too am not too keen on the increased micromanagement the further I expand my enterprises in the game, but the appeal to some of those actions has me roped in still from the first game. Mostly in how the Psi training facility worked to grow that stat only, but here, applied to other structures you have to place and manage who goes in them. Agreed that the primary method to grow a stat be done in actions you do repeatedly, not so much from classroom time.

 

I think that in the context of managing stuff in general, its probably the base facility area that would probably be the easiest if not less time intensive, since your not dealing with it on the multiple unit level that you would with many soldiers. As I mentioned above, most players anyway would probably make sure that those soldiers used the most, those already on transports, would have dibs on any training spaces before anyone else on the roster, so I don't see how this aspect, one used before in the first game, would get in the way too much.

 

I'm not anti-RPG stuff totally, but I'm fine in terms of how the first game handled this. You still had your fodder, yet you could still invest time in growing those you cared about.

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Actually the feats don't make your soldiers better, it determines what equipment you can use. This means Rookies cannot use Plasma, Laser weapons. It means rookie pilots and engineers only use terran pistols. This also means that fast soldiers could be taught how to use breaching charges. It also means you could train a combat Pilot who would steal UFOs out from under the alines. HOwever a simplification is in order, as the 120+ soldier part is a good consideration.

Okay, let's go with this for a second.

Assume that you now have five bases, assume that you are now phasing in laser weapons and discarding standard terran rifles and pistols for laser rifles because a.) Laser weapons do more damage, b.) laser weapons are easier to maintain since there's no worry about replacing used ammo. Imagine that asside from your twenty person strike force in your first base, you also have a garrison of ten soldiers per base.

 

So in the end, you end up either swearing at the person who thought this up as you wade through the personel, giving them the Laser Weapon feat or just giving up and hoping that mutons never raid one of your bases because then your soldiers would be stuck with puny peashooters and can't even retreive plasma weapons from dead aliens even if you've already researched it because it's too much work to provide every single soldier with a basic skill, "Hold here, aim there, and press this"......

 

Training facilities so that garrison and/or backup soldiers don't fall too far behind the strikeforce in stats? Good idea. RPG elements in what is basically a strategy/tactical game... Not so good.

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Training facilities so that garrison and/or backup soldiers don't fall too far behind the strikeforce in stats?  Good idea.

 

This is primarily what I would want to see them used for. We're bound to have soldiers hanging idle as base security or something if nothing else, so if the facilities can train them up in a fashion that's much less effective than used in live combat, its the better way to go I think with regard to covering the basics for them.

 

RPG elements in what is basically a strategy/tactical game... Not so good.

 

I think with this aspect, there would be so much to balance in the programming department it wouldn't be funny :) However, what I would argue instead is that, if the idea is to incorporate moves or actions by soldiers/other units as the game progresses, its implimentation or manifestation need not come off as in depth as other RPG elements. i.e. wouldn't have to have all kinds of extra stats to keep tabs on other than the basics.

 

And if you had a new pilot unit type, they'd probably only need one other stat for flying ability and/or ship-type experience on top of that - one or two extra bar graphs or something. Now unless their training time introduced performance enhancements in the Geoscape during interception stage, you won't have the balance issues that RPGs bring for that unit.

 

Instead with these, if I were testing this unit type out, and as far as peformance goes, I'd limit it (how well their trained) to a craft speed enhancement to target, or a lower fuel consumption thing before examining whether they needed something new. Simply because I think that for now, introducing combat enhancements for example for them with the craft, may bring on balance issues that would take longer to tweak.

 

I'm all for the pilot unit mind you, but this is just how I'd approach it first.

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I have considered all your points and here is my new take on the issue:

 

:) This training system is a bit elaborate and complex for a game where you will be managing 120+ troopers.

:) There needs to be combat classes.

Pilots - Necessary to fly ship, not good for combat, but useful for stealing alien ships during Geoscape.

Combat Engineers - Necessary to get into locked down UFOs or deal with any electronics, Terran or Extra-terrestrial.

Soldier - Does all the shooting, grenade rolling, and in general arse-kicking. However they need the other types to get around non-conventional defenses.

:) Because of no feat system, cross training should not be possible. You need all the types to do the more critical missions, or get better results.

:) Training facilities should increase the amount of stats earned from live combat.

 

----------------------------------------------------------

 

I changed my system to be a lot simpler then before. Go look at the top.

Edited by sir_schwick
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Don’t think there should be a system where you gain more exp from combat if you have more training. That is just stupid. If you train you get better at aiming throwing and such, if you do mission you learn to keep you wits during stressed situations. Training should not affect the amount of exp gained from missions.

 

we should not have exp att all.

 

A simplified ex.

say you have 3 stats:

Aim

Strength

Bravery

 

Training should increase aim and strength

Wile missions should increase bravery. and bravery affects aim, and strength. In addition to preventing panic.

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It's still far too complicated. Look:

 

soldier type: Soldier

 

can do: everything

 

And training (all in 1 facility):

 

Combat training (Acc. Str. ThrAcc.)

 

Agility training (TUs. rea. ener.)

 

Mental training (Mor. Bra.)

 

Psycic training (Psi att. Psi def.) other facility

 

and there you have it.

Edited by mikker
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I'm not a big fan of all-in-one facility usage, unless there's some other penalty to having it such as cost, and/or classroom space compared to the others. Otherwise it may start to take away from the base management challenge a little.

 

That said though, I think 3-4 facilities to break down the various stat areas is enough. Psi for mind stuff, combat training for soldiers, pilots (I think their facility should have a real small classroom, holding perhaps 3-5 tops), and the last you can simply call it a "technical lab" (or some other differentiation from "workshop") that handles the rest...working with a new tool like medkits or the things your combat engineers would need the others wouldn't cover.

 

Although you could consolidate the training of these last types and roll that into what the combat facility offers so your left with 3 training facility types, not 4, 5 or 6 more structures (unless there'll be advanced versions of those 3 later on in terms of capacity vs cost). If there will be an all-in-one facilty, definitely think about tacking on a cost to it in some form, capacity, cost/maintenance, construction time, and perhaps even altering training durations using them as well (the cycle time using one training session as a measuring stick from the others).

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It sounds like base space is going to be limited again, so the all-in-one is the likely solution.

 

I do not like the idea of letting the soldier class do everything.

One, late game it will be really boring and easy if you can do the advanced features with the badass soldier types.

Two, it is not realistic or tactical in any sense. It takes years to cultivate a good solier. He cannot suddnely become a master or even competant pilot or engineer in a couple months. Same with pilots, combat engineers, and scientists.

Three, pilot abilites would be powerful, since with the proper research and training they could take alien UFOs off the geoscape.

Four, Aliens are not going to leave their doors unlocked. YOu need men who have studied demolitions and shaping charges to blast hole. YOu need men who have studied electronics and understand the basics of manipulating alien systems.

Five, it is not super complicated and actually adds strategy overall. Suppose you remove the whoel training component, this is still a good idea.

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True, even if all the training elements were left out, you could still accomplish this by simply expanding the unit types which are on the hiring pool. Pilots and soldiers are self explanitory in terms of X-COM's front line needs, then all you'd need to have is the ability to syphon off scientists or engineers as needed as an occasional unit that goes with you on missions when not on projects at the base.

 

I mean, with the last two professions, your already hiring them to do research inside the base. Rather than hire more for missions, especially if your money is a bit tight, tap into what you have in the base.

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Four, Aliens are not going to leave their doors unlocked. YOu need men who have studied demolitions and shaping charges to blast hole. YOu need men who have studied electronics and understand the basics of manipulating alien systems.

Normal military training already covers proper use of explosives. At least mine did. Keeping the UFO door locked is a good idea, i would like to see that opening it up would be simply a matter of force, not even aliens would be stupid enough to leave a panel for humans to hotwire. A hi-ex or more specialized breaching charge should be enough to crack the door, later with enough plasma or BB. If the aliens feel thay are getting their arses kicked, they would try to dust off (with some time counter). If they feel confident, they would come out to fight. Blasting a hole in UFO would be enough to keep it firmly on ground until repaired, try a supersonic flight or go to orbit with a hullbreach. Larger ones could have several sealable compartments though.

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I do not like the idea of letting the soldier class do everything.

One, late game it will be really boring and easy if you can do the advanced features with the badass soldier types.

 

- no advanced features. Fixed.

 

Two, it is not realistic or tactical in any sense. It takes years to cultivate a good solier. He cannot suddnely become a master or even competant pilot or engineer in a couple months. Same with pilots, combat engineers, and scientists.

 

- why would he? Those are diffrent classes, and as i've said, there are only soldiers, no pilots, or engineers. Fixed.

 

Three, pilot abilites would be powerful, since with the proper research and training they could take alien UFOs off the geoscape.

 

-let's remove that then. Fixed.

 

Four, Aliens are not going to leave their doors unlocked. YOu need men who have studied demolitions and shaping charges to blast hole. YOu need men who have studied electronics and understand the basics of manipulating alien systems.

 

- Why? Fixed.

 

Five, it is not super complicated and actually adds strategy overall. Suppose you remove the whoel training component, this is still a good idea.

 

- Not in my oppinion. Fixed.

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@Tuoppi

 

You are right about most breaching and other charges, although I imagine one chemical based charge may not be enough for Alien Alloys. However that is something that just requires an addditional breaching charge, not a degree in physics.

 

But I did think of something most soldiers would not be trained in, nuclear/elerium physics. Good combat engineers could sabotage Elerium Power Sources in ways that did not damage then or they could leech the Elerium(imagine doing that in Battleship raids). They could also take over alien defense systems or lock out the aliens themselves. Most importantly they could repair vehicles or set up temporary breach covers with AA. I also imagine that while hotwiring from outside would be difficult, inside there would be plenty of exposed electronics(they are arrogant creatures).

 

 

On Ships Leaving:

 

I imagine these are the situations aliens try and leave.

 

1) Scouts are not there to fight, they are there for recon. So when recovery scout ships live you either have to stealth many men there so they can storm the ship or keep the ship from leaving. A single stealthy engineer could make the ship recoverable, a single soldier with a BB could keep in from ever leaving.

2) When non-combat ships have recovered any equipment off the ground and realize you are still somewhat a threat on the ground.

3) When combat ships have lost significant men.

 

 

 

@mikker

 

I do not understand why expanding the scope of missions and mission actions is a bad thing. For everyone here, here are possibilities using specialty troops.

 

1) Remember how I said you could steal there ships. Aliens in larger ships may try the same thing. They send three or four soldiers with a pilot to take your ship, which is defended by a lone trooper. They could try grounding it so they can send reinforcements, or stealing it so they can easily sneak in your base(same way you sneak into theirs).

2) You are assaulting a battelship and hate that space betweent eh four reactor feet. Instead you blow a hole in each foot(life-offable sad to say) and send engineers with escourt to leach the Elerium. You then leave with minium casualties. The aliens have to wait for refeuling, which must get through your interceptor net first. ALso, you just recieved tons of elerium for next to nothing.

3) Engineers will be vital in base assaults and defense, since they can activate/disable turrets and automated security systems.

Edited by sir_schwick
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i mean that it's:

 

1) Far too complicated.

2) May unbalance the game for experienced users.

3) May ruin the game for unexperienced users.

4) It's not expanding the scope, it's adding features that just complicates things.

5) A Hëll to balance

6) I don't like RPG's.

 

there. I said it. I don't like RPG elements. Happy?

Edited by mikker
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Enigneers and Pilots do not add RPG elements. Remove the feats, but limit what each class could do. Soldiers shoot, Engineers deal with the mechanics, Pilots fly ships. They can all fight, but each has a specialized role in combat. I already conceded that the training concept was overdrawn.
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Yea for them, they should be able to grow their stats same as soldiers. Its just that space to carry things like rifles onboard their interceptors (fighter jocks here would probably be the exception anyway, not transport pilots) would be impractical. So really, what they can pack should largely be a factor of what they're flying in the first place as their limiter.
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@qonfused

 

Now I see the confusion. I abandoned feats a while back. However the different classes would have certain niche abilities and better stats for certain things.

 

Pilots could use rifles, but they would not carry one, at least not on them. Of course it could be stored under the pilots seat, or something. Pistols are easier to carry in event of crash, or if they are rescued.

 

Soldiers would have palatable fighting stats, the others guys could actually do the other things needed to be done.

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One problem with the different categories of units, ie soldiers, pilots, engineers, etc, is that in order to really achieve the goal based missions, ie capturing and flying off with UFOs etc, would require a level of interactivity like that in the Fallout series.

 

Right now, I'm going to put aside the question of whether is it going to be entertaining to have in the game or not, but the question of can it be done.

 

Currently, AFAIK, plans for interactivity with battlescape object includes killing objects(soldiers, aliens and civilians), destroying objects(most, if not all walls, majority of battlescape objects) and manually opening doors. While interacting with objects is probrably a good way to extend replayability, I'm not quite sure if it will be possible to implement it in later versions if the capability is not included from the get go.

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These RPG elements suck.

The ones apoc had were fine. There were 2 training facilities: Combat and Psi. Live combat trained more effectively, but had risk of death. Simple and effective, with little to no micromanagement. Fun should never be sacrificed for the sake of realism or complication.

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  • 4 weeks later...

If you read my later posts I dropped the idea of feats and RPG elements.

 

My idea was to allow Engineer and Pilot types to allow more creative objectives and ways to approach missions, as well as open up what constitutes a mission and success. However I do now have to agree with Tzuchan's observations.

 

Indeed these kind of actions would require a great deal of interactivity that does not exist in the current model. The real question becomes if this kind of interaction can be programmed in. Only a programmer truly knows, but I am inclined to think Tzuchan is right and it is simply not feasible in V1+.

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