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M.c. So Good And So Bad


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#1 testarossa

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Posted 08 October 2005 - 12:46 PM

Every time I play TFTD I find I can't wait until I get the M.C. control capability, but then once it arrives the game becomes sort of dull because M.C. is by far the very best weapon that you can have. I've beaten every single alien on the top part of a colony mission in one turn thanks to it, (and a few disrupters into the corners :D. However I've been playing it on superhuman and refusing to use M.C. throughout the entire game and it's at least a thousand times as hard. I finally have soldiers dying again (a good thing?) But I have to recommend it for anyone thats played the game through using M.C. Anyone else done this? It's much more intense especially at colonies, artifact sites, and certain terror missions. Has anyone played going only to night missions? Thats my next plan night missions only, with no armor, thermic lances only, and no M.C. should be fun :D

#2 Selmak

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 01:46 AM

Use MC tactically. That is, not as the single means of winning the mission. In particular, make use of the Disrupt attack rather than outright Molecular Control. In many cases this will allow your soldiers to fire on aliens without fear of reaction fire, as panicked or beserk units expend all their TUs. They also won't reaction fire if in their panic they've dropped their weapon ;)

#3 Negator

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 05:20 AM

I have been playinga Genius level Ironman game and I did notice the game get easier once I got MC disruptor. I only have one or two men use it in a squad.

Mostly I use it on aliens that would shoot my scouts - I either get them to shoot their friends, throw their weapons away or line up with their backs turned for an easy shot (armour is thinner there).

Seems a bit mean, but at least the humans survive !!

#4 Blood Angel

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 10:11 AM

I can see what you mean, Testarossa. Normally I'm far too bad to get any sort of psionic/MC weapon, but when I use TFTDedit to get one, my squad can consist merely of three sonic displacers and a dude with a disruptor. Too easy.

#5 testarossa

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Posted 12 October 2005 - 11:40 AM

I can see what you mean, Testarossa. Normally I'm far too bad to get any sort of psionic/MC weapon, but when I use TFTDedit to get one, my squad can consist merely of three sonic displacers and a dude with a disruptor. Too easy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Exactly, getting to those technologies is a lot of fun. Researching is one of my favorite parts of Enemy Unknown and TFTD, but once you have them the aliens become an absolute pushover. Try a colony mission without M.C. though! Its definately a lot more frightening because you never know when a Disrupter bomb will come flying out of the dark. You're guarnteed to lose men on one of those missions but it puts a lot of fun back into the game.

On the flipside I use 6 M.C. people at a time and kill every single alien in one turn on a colony mission just for a laugh. :D (to get the ones in the corners just shoot blindly with a pulse launcher).

If you're up for a challenge though try using no M.C. on superhuman, I haven't finished it yet and I have tons of dead soldiers every mission I do, but it stays pretty exciting the whole time.

#6 Negator

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 05:52 AM

[/quote]
If you're up for a challenge though try using no M.C. on superhuman, I haven't finished it yet and I have tons of dead soldiers every mission I do, but it stays pretty exciting the whole time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]

How many missions do you suceed at ? I'll be looking to try something like that myself one day but I suspect I'll get a good whupping.

#7 testarossa

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:38 AM

Well most downed sub missions I can manage to win with only light loses. Its the terror sites that are a real challenge. The second one I survived with only one man left. Of course I'm not doing save/reload either so it makes it all the more difficult. The goal when doing a no M.C. campaign I believe is to go for Ion armor as quickly as possible. I get gauss and medi kit, and then skip all other research to get Ion Armor. Without heavy armor you are doomed in ship missions and colonies.

so I would say just play a catious game, don't rush in guns blaring and you may survive. Playing without M.C. forces you to use a more tactical approach.

#8 dan2

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:44 AM

I get gauss and medi kit, and then skip all other research to get Ion Armor. Without heavy armor you are doomed in ship missions and colonies.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gauss? Won't it be easier to get straight for the sonic pistol, then sonic pistol ammo? If I start its research right from the first day, with some luck I usually get it on 11-13 january and any picked pistol in the battle can be used (but not reloaded) even if the ammo was not researched yet, research which takes another few days. Manufacturing gauss tech requires time and technicians, but sonic weaponry is.....free :)

#9 Blehm 98

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:50 AM

Gauss weapons also take a lot less time to get up and running too

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#10 dan2

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 04:38 PM

Gauss weapons also take a lot less time to get up and running too
Haven't seen you in a while :D

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I tried both strategies, researching gauss tech, then gauss pistol, and manufacturing it with little technicians I have and researching the gauss pistol ammo at the same time.
Second strategy was simply to fire all technicians to make room for more researchers, research the sonic pistol ASAP and use it since day 11 on the battlefield.
Second one worked way better for me, anyway, but results may vary from person to person.
You haven't see me in a while because I was very busy with a game.....I won't name it now, but it takes lots of my time. But I'm glad you're welcoming me back, I'll try to come more often again :)

#11 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 06:10 PM

You haven't see me in a while because I was very busy with a game.....I won't name it now, but it takes lots of my time. But I'm glad you're welcoming me back, I'll try to come more often again :)

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I know how that is, Pardus used to take lots and lots of my time :)

#12 testarossa

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 07:51 PM

Gauss? Won't it be easier to get straight for the sonic pistol, then sonic pistol ammo? If I start its research right from the first day, with some luck I usually get it on 11-13 january and any picked pistol in the battle can be used (but not reloaded) even if the ammo was not researched yet, research which takes another few days. Manufacturing gauss tech requires time and technicians, but sonic weaponry is.....free :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Well I prefer gauss tech personally. The sonic pistol has poor accuracy compared to the gauss rifle I believe (not sure about this), and since it seems I can't hit the broad side of a barn with any weapon early in the game, I prefer to use one thats moderately powerful and has autoshot ability. I can see your side of it too, I haven't tried this method before but it seems..like it would be difficult to arm your soldiers during battle in this way. Sonic pistols don't occur that often on Superhuman except in the first month and even then theres only 2-3 aliens that carry the pistol in each mission. It just seems like a kind of hassle to me, when by late january I can have gauss riffles fully loaded and not risking my life to grab a sonic pistol from a corpse. To each his own though, and I will try your method on my next time around.

#13 NKF

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 10:50 PM

Sonic Pistol - 20 shots at 80 damage
Snap: 65% acc at 30% TUs a shot
Aimed: 85% acc at 50% TUs a shot

Gauss Rifle - 15 shots at 60 damage
Auto: 50% acc at 40% TUs a shot
Snap: 65% acc at 30% TUs a shot
Aimed: 100% acc at 60% TUs a shot

Heavy Gauss - 10 shots at 75 damage
Snap: 50% acc at 40% TUs a shot
Aimed: 90% acc at 80% TUs a shot

The sonic pistol clearly wins as the snap-shot weapon for power, but is otherwise equal in accuracy with the gauss rifle. The Gauss Rifle wins as a short range auto weapon and for long range sniping. The Heavy Gauss just falls flat. So you win either way with the gauss rifle or sonic pistol. The only problem with the pistol is that it becomes a very exotic weapon very quickly and ammo is not as cheap or as quick to churn out as the gauss rifle clips.

Now look at the gauss pistol for comparison

Gauss Pistol - 20 shots at 45 damage
Auto: 30% acc at 30% TUs
Snap: 40% acc at 25% TUs
Aimed: 70% acc at 50% TUs

Clearly it won't be the best all-rounder, but you must admit that it's the fastest bullet spitting weapon in the entire game! And it ties in with the sonic pistol for having the largest weapon clip in the entire game.

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#14 testarossa

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:52 PM

Thanks for the great statistics NKF!

Yeah I underestimated the sonic pistols accuracy, I thought it was more along the lines of the gauss pistol which as I can see are not great. So either way you go it seems each have their advantages. Though auto fire is a big plus in my opinion. The gauss pistol though...I don't like it much. Talk about inaccuracy, and lack of power. In a Superhuman game its like a fly running into a train to shoot an alien with a gauss pistol. Gillmen, even some aquatoids do not die in one hit and always fire a retaliatory shot. Gauss Rifle is the way to go early on!

#15 dan2

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 10:33 AM

Oh, I'm sure there's more than one way to skin the cat :) especially in X-Com.
My problem with the gauss rifle is that it's not manufactured fast enough.
If I don't sell the sonic pistols and the sonic pistol ammo, after researching both projects, I have a fully equipped 8 people squad by 17 january, right in time for the first terror mission.
Plus, these two projects count toward the "sonic oscillator", which is simply awsome in ship combat, one reason to have it sooner.
I really like the sound of gauss weaponry, though, which I usually use a bit later in the game, once I have many technicians.

P.S. (for Azrael) I wasn't ready to restart bad memories, so I'll keep quiet on it

#16 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 10:35 AM

P.S. (for Azrael) I wasn't ready to restart bad memories, so I'll keep quiet on it

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No bad memories at all, I had the most fun over there :)

#17 testarossa

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 11:44 AM

OMG This M.C. Free superhuman campaign is proving to be one of the most difficult games I have ever played! For those who say that TFTD is not harder than Enemy Unknown I ask you to try this. I had it pretty easy for the first few months, encountering only Gillmen and Aquatoids all the way into may. Usually by this time there are lobster men/tasoth. But in early june I got a shipping terror, with a mixed crew on a cruise ship which is even worse. I hate these because it is such a good fighting force. There are Triscene :cussing: , tasoth, high M.C. Aquatoids, Biodrones, ect, its just a bad situation. So I lose about 2 men just being shot, blown to pieces, ect by tasoth. Then I have 3 people panicking like theres no tommorow from M.C. attacks, running around the upper decks like fools with no weapons. Then I have 3 others killed by a single triscene in one turn, he just ran straight at them and chomped em' all to death. My final casualty on the upper deck came from a calcinite. Since when can a calcinite cut through Ion armor!? Now I only have 6 men to clear the lower levels. I'm considering just leaving because I'm probably not going to make it. But seriously if you don't want a challenge stay away from this!!!

#18 dan2

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 11:56 AM

Yes, it is tough, that's why the game it's still playable after so many years, everybody loves how tough it is :D
You're not saving at all, not even in Geoscape?
Anyway, I hope you brought Sonic Cannons for the party.
Calcinite has a very powerful sting, even MagIon Armor might not provide enough protection in some directions, but that's the game, you have to save the Earth, no matter what

#19 NKF

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 01:06 PM

TFTD's aliens are leagues more powerful than those in UFO, and the balance in power for your starting weapons are really messed up (with the exception of the Gas Cannon). So in no way is TFTD easier! It is easier when it comes to being able to seive your MC skills, however, as one of the most critical aliens you'll ever need is one of a few that provides the lab and is found relatively early (and is much easier to spot than a sectoid leader in UFO).

---

Speaking of the Gauss Pistol - it looks weak, but that's if you think of it in the same way you think of the rifles. It's not a precise and powerful sniping weapon - it's a spraying weapon. The amount of bullets that'll be flying make up for its lack of accuracy. It's not a powerful weapon and does squat against lobstermen and terror units with very heavy armour (like Hallucinoids and Xarquids), but I've killed Tasoth with it, so its not all that bad. ;)

Let's put it this way, the Gauss Pistol is leagues better than most of your starting weapons with the exception of the Gas Cannon and the more powerful high explosive type weapons. The inaccuracy is made up for its ridiculous speed. 3 Autoshots a turn, with 10% TUs left for movement. No other weapon can boast that. Up close, bursts from the pistol are quite lethal to soft targets like Aquatoids and Gillmen. The cheaper firing cost also means your reaction score doesn't drop as fast, so you don't attract as much reaction fire after the first few shots. It also makes a great reaction fire weapon. Or, use the speed of the shots to your advantage - they offer mobility: Move beyond enemy firing range (20 tiles) before firing, or duck into cover after taking a few potshots at a distant enemy.

I must conceed that it's not an all-rounder like the sonic pistol (which kills anything), but it works well when you exploit its strong qualities to the fullest.

But don't mind me. Apart from the Dart Gun, which is the only weapon in the entire X-Com series that I loathe, I try to see the good points in all the weapons.

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#20 testarossa

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 01:07 PM

You're not saving at all, not even in Geoscape?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I save a lot actually because my game crashes quite often, But I don't reload if I'm on a mission. I've got cannons and everything I could need except mag ion armor. But I had no Idea about the Calcinite! I think perhaps it's attack is much more powerful on superhuman because as I remember from other difficulties even plastic aqua armor could stop it. And on other suphuman capaigns I have done, I never had one get close enough to try! I'm in for trouble now though! This ship mission is going to be the end of me! I can just imagine the triscene up on the third floor now :( . Just waiting for me to walk around the wrong corner.

#21 dan2

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 03:18 PM

Triscenes are best killed with grenades, but if you have your game saved, you're not doomed :) If you have it saved right before the begining of the month, you can even try and pick the race of alien in that mission (I presume 1AM on 1st of the month).
Cargo ship seems way easier, at least in the first part, passengers ships are more annoying, you can choose that too by reloading before the mission begins

#22 testarossa

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 09:03 PM

Triscenes are best killed with grenades, but if you have your game saved, you're not doomed :) If you have it saved right before the begining of the month, you can even try and pick the race of alien in that mission (I presume 1AM on 1st of the month).
Cargo ship seems way easier, at least in the first part, passengers ships are more annoying, you can choose that too by reloading before the mission begins

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



No that goes against the whole point of my game, I don't do any reloads, therefore I play with the cards I'm dealt. Trust me it makes the game a lot more entertaining. If my crew dies then thats the way it's gotta be! I'll just leave one guy behind to save my ship and any hope of retaining some points.

#23 testarossa

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 09:14 PM

TFTD's aliens are leagues more powerful than those in UFO, and the balance in power for your starting weapons are really messed up (with the exception of the Gas Cannon). So in no way is TFTD easier! It is easier when it comes to being able to seive your MC skills, however, as one of the most critical aliens you'll ever need is one of a few that provides the lab and is found relatively early (and is much easier to spot than a sectoid leader in UFO).

But don't mind me. Apart from the Dart Gun, which is the only weapon in the entire X-Com series that I loathe, I try to see the good points in all the weapons.

- NKF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


hmmm...I'm not sure I agree that M.C. is easier to come by. I got a sectoid leader on my third mission or so, which was a terror site, it was purely accidental, but I had PSI labs up and running by the end of February. Also there are not as many precursors to PSI as there are to M.C. If you weren't familiar with the tech tree then it would be a lot harder to stumble upon M.C. than to research the precursors to PSI.

Regardless though, as I'm not using M.C. At all except to find out which soldiers are weaklings, It really doesn't affect the difficulty of my game. It only proves to me that TFTD is more difficult.

Also about the Dart gun, I completely and totally agree that it is a piece of junk not worth its weight in dirt. However I do believe it has one asset that could come in handy. You can use it to increase your accuracy. I believe that I read this somewhere else...By standing behind one of your own soldiers (with mag ion armor) and repeatedly shooting him with a dart gun, you can increase your accuracy dramatically without dealing any harm. It's such a worthless pea shooter that you can use it for target practice and have it count towards accuracy. Of course I can't vouch for this as I have never tried it, but it sounds like it would work.

#24 Blehm 98

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Posted 21 October 2005 - 09:35 PM

shooting lobstermen you mean. the best place would be a place where your soldier is protected by a wall or something, and you fire at the lobster through a port or something with the dart pistol - and make sure he has no weapons. Just don't let him get right next to you (without a wall in between you and him) or he will chop you in half
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#25 testarossa

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 11:47 AM

shooting lobstermen you mean.  the best place would be a place where your soldier is protected by a wall or something, and you fire at the lobster through a port or something with the dart pistol - and make sure he has no weapons.  Just don't let him get right next to you (without a wall in between you and him) or he will chop you in half

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>




I thought it was possible shooting your own teamates because the dart gun would deal absolutely no damage, and you would be in no danger from attack, and you could gain accuracy points because you are hitting a live target. Does it not work this way? I have never tried it so I couldn't vouch for it.

#26 NKF

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 04:55 PM

The game only records experience hits for live enemy targets. Not friendlies, enemy units under your mind control, neutrals or scenery. One of your soldiers under mind control counts as an enemy, so that might work.

See http://www.ufopaedia...itle=Experience for more information. It's probably a bit too much information your casual player may want, but it explains exactly how experience is earned, which can help you streamline your games a bit so that you avoid performing actions that have no effect. For example, I used to think running a lot increased TUs - it doesn't.

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#27 testarossa

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 05:10 PM

Oh...okay you are right then the dart gun is 100% useless. I guess you could shoot unarmed lobster men with it but that only takes it down to 99.8% useless. :D

#28 Oldblue153

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Posted 15 January 2006 - 07:17 AM

I personally think that the MC coulda been dealt with better by giving the x-com agents added defences against molecular control via research rather than giving them the ability to use it...it so takes the fun outta the game once you have MC capabilities.

like perhaps training in combination with a new helmit designed to scramble transmissions making it very very hard to MC a soldier, perhaps even making this new helmit incompatable with Magnetic Ion Armor but compatable with ion armor to even it up a bit..and to get us to at least consider making Ion Armor :)

#29 Pherdnut

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 05:36 PM

You still have to get through that first Tasoth mission without PSI. That alone is a pain, especially if you discover that all your best guys have weak PSI strength as so frequently happens.

#30 Aegeri

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 01:02 AM

The game only records experience hits for live enemy targets. Not friendlies, enemy units under your mind control, neutrals or scenery. One of your soldiers under mind control counts as an enemy, so that might work.

See http://www.ufopaedia...itle=Experience for more information. It's probably a bit too much information your casual player may want, but it explains exactly how experience is earned, which can help you streamline your games a bit so that you avoid performing actions that have no effect. For example, I used to think running a lot increased TUs - it doesn't.

- NKF

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


While perusing that wiki site you linked I happened to notice this little comment exchange:

A soldier's TUs caps at 80, but it is possible to 'overflow' the cap by up to two points on the last combat when you go over the cap. On average, you have a 25% chance of getting capped at 81 instead of 80. Once at 80+, all TU improvements cease.

Older versions of X-COM did not have a cap and stats could reach 255 and then wrap back to 0. This could potentially cripple an otherwise good soldier.

- Are you sure? I've played the DOS version (1.0) for years and I don't ever recall seeing that problem. Delete this message when you read it Hobbes

- Mouse Nightshirt and EsTeR -- I did hundreds, if not thousands, of tests at Cap-1 and never once saw Cap+2. Is it possible you're confused by the fact that you can get +2 points when at Cap-1? But see, that leads to a maximum of Cap+1, not Cap+2. If you don't mind, can you say more about seeing Cap+2, if you have... what version, etc. Non-hacked game? Otherwise I've taken out the Cap+2 statement for now. Maybe we should go to Discussion if you've seen it. Hobbes, NKF originally wrote about the wrap-around... I'll drop him an email, ask him to look here. This comment will self-destruct in one week. ---MikeTheRed 18:22, 16 December 2005 (PST)

-A long time ago, when the games were still on these ancient thingies known as floppy diskettes (and these being the 3 inch variants, quite new at the time), your stats weren't capped and could continue to increase until they hit the byte limit of 255 points. As your attributes were stored in a byte, when the value went beyond 255, it loses the high bit, effectively returning the value back to 0. -NKF


I'd like to point out that I've personally experienced this myself back in the good old days of X-Com. I've had many a soldier made utterly useless by my obsessive quest to make every man perfect. I've never bothered maxing out stats since then but now that I know it's only confined to the old Dos version I'll happily start doing this again.

#31 Lobster Dan

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 06:58 PM

The game only records experience hits for live enemy targets. Not friendlies, enemy units under your mind control, neutrals or scenery. One of your soldiers under mind control counts as an enemy, so that might work.


I think I discovered two more things that could go into that list about MC'd soldiers:

First, shots your MC'd soldiers make (against you) don't count towards experience.

Also, your soldiers don't seem to ever take reaction shots against an MC'd soldier.


I found out the second while trying to do rapid training against an alien colony. I went with everyone in Ion Armor and armed with a Guass Pistol, and 1 psi-puppet. I wanted the psi-puppet to get controlled inside the Triton, shoot uselessly at his friends, and have my other soldiers uselessly shoot him until I max'ed out both Reactions and Firing Accuracy. But they never took the shot.

(The MC'd soldier -would- take reaction shots against his friends if he didn't use up his TU's for some reason.)