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#51 kelfka

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Posted 14 February 2004 - 08:33 PM

How about using some form of virtual particle energy generator in some gadget?


Thats a good idea, you could come up with one and place it in the appropriate thred.

Edited by kelfka, 14 February 2004 - 08:34 PM.


#52 Tuoppi

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Posted 15 February 2004 - 08:33 AM

About Elerium/Xenium/Whateverium...

I thought it is a substance which has a kind of anti-grav. When anti-materia is mixed in it, the virtual particle stream/anti grav field of singe atoms of Xenium keeps the anti-matter from reaching materia in nuclei level. Gives a nice anti-materia storage (Way better than penning loop) Doesn´t require external power to work, is small and useful in every way. Just propelling some particle radiation (alpha perhaps) would alter Xenium, thus collapsing the exotic grav function and so we have a anti-matter energy released. Thus alien power source is a device which emits alpha radiation into Xenium and converts resulting Gamma Ray (Good band it is BTW) into useful energy form (interior covered in advanced solar panel). :blink:

Might be a part of Ufopaedia text when edited a bit...

NASA is actually researching gravity controlling... Seriously.

#53 Paladin

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 02:31 PM

Sweet, a brain-blasting physics thread!! :D

Seriously, as it was said earlier, Fission is the chain breaking of unstable heavy elements, like antique A-bombs and today's nuclear reactors. Uranium was the prime candidate, being the heaviest stable, naturally occuring element. Bombard Uranium with Neutrons in a normal nuclear reactor and you'll get Plutonium, now used for bombs. Elerium, as it was described, is simply an even heavier artifical element, but it could be contained...

Fusion, on the otherhand, is the joining of simple atoms. The one who work best are isotopes of hydrogen, Deuterium and Tritium, since they have extra-neutrons to make them heavy enough to collide, forming heavier elements and a lot more energy.
NOW, as you noticed, H-bombs have existed for what, 30-40 years, and their' fusion-based, yes? Well they simply use a plutonium-based fssion, A-bomb to build up the pressure and temperature around an hydrogen core to start the fusion reaction that lets out a lot more energy... crude but effective.
As it was said earlier in this thread, we just can't get the same kind of sheer gravitic pressure as the core of the sun, so Tokamak-style Fusion research reactors have to get even HOTTER to compensate! :master: Around 6 millions degrees Kelvin I think.
I think there's the original fusion-proved Tokamak still working since 1990 in UK, and they're building a new, multinational one somewhere (either in Canada or Japan, not sure who won)... Trouble is you must pump 16 MW in this to squeeze 2 out in a sustained fusion, because the hyper-dense and hot plasma is locked in a tubular magnetic constriction chamber to prevent it from melting the walls...(BTW, plasma is simply gas that's lost it's electrons, aka. ionised gas, open flame is a kind of plasma too, there goes the exotic side of the stuff...)
See for yourselves if you want a nice example of a Tokamak fusion reactor:
http://w3.pppl.gov/~dstotler/SSFD/

Besides, in the beginning of the universe, matter was composed almost exclusively of hydrogen... It's the stars that fuse hydrogen for dozen billion years, then their supply is exhausted so the condense and start burning the helium that was produced (litterally H+H = He), then in a shorter time it's all spent up and it's turn for Lithium to burn, and so on until the star collapses or forms a black hole (if it is more thant 100 times more massive than our sun). Then, all those neat, exotic elements we see everyday are reabsorbed into nebulae, wich coalesce into new stars, incressing the amount of heavier elements in the universe. this process eventually allowed for non-gaseous planets like our own to form up, so in a way we are all stardust... O:)

A word on Antimatter: any matter could exist in anti-matter, even whole parallel universe, trouble is upon entering those we'd be the heart of a supernova as all our atoms become miniature suns upon contact with antimater...
It really is hard to contain, even harder if you try to make uber heavy stuff (like... anti-protons :o , a mere 1000 times heavier than a positron...), then agin, it's only as heavy as a proton... hmmm, there's what 6,24x10^24 molecules of water in one measly mililiter, each is H2O, that gives 1+1+16 protons per molecule (and I'm not bothering to count the isotopes)... It gives you a heck of a lot of sub particles if you build your anti-protons one by one in a 30km large particle accelerator... :unsure:


Bottom line is: it's a game, so the fact that the designers mixed it all up by using a selfContradictory/SuperHeavy/Stable/Fusionable/Antigravity+AntimatterGenerating element to make their lives easier to explain all this amazing technology is just a shortcut we're going to have to take... :huh?:
:stupid:

Edited by Paladin, 20 July 2004 - 02:39 PM.

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#54 centurion

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 01:08 AM

Just a clarification...

It's the stars that fuse hydrogen for dozen billion years, then their supply is exhausted so the condense and start burning the helium that was produced (litterally H+H = He), then in a shorter time it's all spent up and it's turn for Lithium to burn, and so on until the star collapses or forms a black hole (if it is more thant 100 times more massive than our sun).

Lithium does not play a significant role in the stars' energy-producing cycle (it's not stable enough under the conditions where it could appear), instead elements like carbon, oxygen, neon and magnesium get produced and burned, right down to iron, which is incapable of producing energy by fusion. The collapse to a black hole occurs when this iron core is heavy enough for its gravitanional field to overcome the pressure of the heat; and this happens with stars weighting around 30+ sun masses (IIRC stars don't get heavier than ~100 sun masses due to the pressure of generated light).
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#55 Tsereve

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 07:54 PM

In theory, fission is easier than fusion. During a fission reaction (Nuclear Bomb, 4 instance), a single sub-atomic particle gets shot out into a crowd of "enormous" atoms. An atom gets hit, and splits into 2 parts containing electrons and protons. These in turn spin off, hitting more atoms and thus creating a chain reaction. However, in nuclear power generators, only 1 of these parts continues its journey. If both do, it ends up as a nuclear meltdown (or something with very similar effects). This is bad, by the way.

A black hole is made from a star imploding, or collapsing on itself. Thus, it starts out tiny (for a cosmic object. The only stars with enough mass to implode would be >1,000s of times larger than our sun.) It grows by absorbing, collecting, and adding to itself the surrounding mass. As this mass is added, the black hole becomes denser, and the event horizon is extended. This allows it to reach out and absorb more mass, continuing the cycle. Black holes only die out when they have exhausted the mass around them. Therefore, if the universe is infinite, black holes will grow indefinately. (Don't ask me what happens when 2 of them collide). If the universe is finite, though, and curves into the 4-dimensional representation of a circle (point=1D, circle=2D, sphere=3D), black holes will eventually consume the entire universe and die out. Then, nothing will happen, at least until the multi-dimensional beings come and discover an entire universe of absolute nothingness. In fact, the lack of matter might even induce anti-matter into our dimension. Bcuz anti-matter & matter cannot co-exist, and matter from another dimension turns into anti-matter in our universe, and any inter-dimensional travelers would need to be able to flip matter types at will, their anti-matter (now converted into matter) would be annihilated when it came into contact with our universe, and they would all die. End of story.

This thread's hard on the mind!
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

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#56 centurion

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 11:23 PM

Black holes only die out when they have exhausted the mass around them.  Therefore, if the universe is infinite, black holes will grow indefinately.

Thank Lord for Hawking radiation, which (sloooowly) siphons off energy (mass, if you wish) from a black hole, so they can die (kind of).
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#57 Tuoppi

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 01:58 AM

Kind of thank lord... after that there is absolutely nothing less... ^_^ Single protons and neutrons having more distance than galaxies nowadays. Bleak.

Was this "Hawking radiation" based on the fact that even protons and neutrons are not really stable? Or do i remember it all wrong?

BTW "black hole becoming denser" might not be exactly the right expression... We got the point though ^_^ 2 of them colliding would just result in one large... With some nice side effects like strong gravity waves and heavy radiation, it was simulated by computers few years ago by NASA IIRC. (based on current knowledge of course, which just happens to be limited in case of gravity)

#58 centurion

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 03:03 AM

No, the Hawking radiation is not dependant on GUT (oh, and neutrons are not stable in any case, half-time ~10 minutes if not near protons), it's virtual particle pairs being ripped apart (and into RL existence) by the gravitational force: one of them falls into the hole, the other cannot recombine.
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#59 fux0r666

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 05:06 AM

Yeah, I suppose that, as their gravitational fields get stronger and if there is no cap on density, more massive black holes could be denser.

But I do not know if more massive black holes are larger. It could be that they are smaller as far as the radius of strictly the super-dense matter goes.

Edited by fux0r666, 23 July 2004 - 07:18 AM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#60 Tuoppi

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 06:36 AM

Well... By larger Black Hole i meant the event horizon and mass. There is not much point in discussing size of a point in space as it has no spatial dimensions as far as we know. There is the problem with gravity theories in quantum physics level-distances, that mankind has no real knowledge of. Your guess is as good as anyone's now...

#61 Tsereve

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 05:38 PM

The term "larger black hole" is actually a bit of a misnomer, since apart from a particularily dense core, they are almost completely made of nothingness/darkmatter. "Large", "small", etc. refer to mass, but darkmatter has no mass--it is merely a vacuum, the complete absence of mass. Because of this, a black hole's overall mass isn't that impressive for a cosmic object. Only the core is spectacular in that field. Why are we all discussing this topic, anyway? How did we get from Elerium to fusion balls to anti-matter to black holes?
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#62 fux0r666

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Posted 23 July 2004 - 05:56 PM

Dark matter merely emits no radiation and therefore cannot be readily detected. Its existence is postulated because of an inordinate amount of gravitational lensing when observing distant galaxies. Dark matter must have mass in order to produce the lensing effect.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#63 centurion

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 11:58 AM

Just don't fudge together black matter (stuff we cannot account for) and black holes' matter (which is definitely there beyond the event horizon, though we don't know in what form). "Larger" black holes are those with larger event horizon radius (this is "measurable", the stable orbit closest to the black hole has radius thrice the radius of the event horizon), which is the same as having greater mass.
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#64 Blehm 98

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Posted 24 July 2004 - 03:42 PM

Jeeze, this is even worse thread hijacking than one at teh International mall....
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#65 Paladin

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Posted 30 July 2004 - 07:07 AM

The  term "larger black hole" is actually a bit of a misnomer, since apart from a particularily dense core, they are almost completely made of nothingness/darkmatter.  "Large", "small", etc. refer to mass, but darkmatter has no mass--it is merely a vacuum, the complete absence of mass.  Because of this, a black hole's overall mass isn't that impressive for a cosmic object.  Only the core is spectacular in that field.  Why are we all discussing this topic, anyway?  How did we get from Elerium to fusion balls to anti-matter to black holes?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think we were trying to explain the Fission/Fusion and Antimater concepts to profanes... Obviously, the topic got out of hand because anyone without a Science background would have fled this thread before going nuts... :LOL:
"You're just jealous because the voices in my head only talk to me."

"I only think this stuff up ..
then I have to write it down so it doesn't corrupt the rest of my brain.. "

"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another which states that this has already happened.
-Douglas Adams (The Hitchhicker's Guide to the Galaxy)"

#66 kchickenlord

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Posted 31 July 2004 - 11:19 AM

I remember reading an interview with a physicist who had been working on anti-matter for about 20 years, he claimed he had managed to release enough energy through reaction to boil enough water for a cuppa.

Needless to say...........

(that said he hadnt been actually producing reactions for all 20 years, if he had im sure there coulda been enough hot water to do a pot noodle to go with the tea, if youre into that sorta thing)

#67 A_dxman

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Posted 03 August 2004 - 12:04 AM

this thread is suposed to be about antimatter not black holes or other types of 'provent ot exist but unstable exocit matter'

Oh and BTW, does not e115 emitt antimatter? i think i remember reading in the fluff the e225 creates antimattes as it decays an hence produces large amounts of energy.

oh, and the amount of energy needed to hold large amounts of antimatter is something horendous, like the energy gain from modern fusion reactions, the output is something like -1*10^25 Kw. the long and short of it is.

Only the enemy could have this type of technology, even in 100 years we probearly wont be able to create a working fusion reaction chamber, with out steeling some things from the old enemy.

#68 x0563511

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Posted 08 August 2004 - 12:43 PM

. . . and cold fusion was something else entirely, and it was shown to not work.  Too bad we'd be in a different world today.

As for antimatter we've had it for decades as a matter of fact.

Really? I saw something about some sort of research lab that was being built to research fusion power. It will be done in 2008 I think. (Saw all of this on a documentary on the history channel.) Or maby I am thinking of a different kind of fusion. Cold fusion is fusion at room temperature right?

Also, while we do have antimatter however we don't have very much of it. IIRC something like 10 nanograms or something.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Yes there is, and there getting closer to getting a useful reaction. The tocomak they are planning to start in 2008 is multiple stories tall, the one they use now is about twice the height of a man...

The project name is JET - Joint European Torus

#69 Paladin

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Posted 12 August 2004 - 05:58 AM

Right, the JET's Tokamak is still a gigantic research lab to perfect stable hot fusion, since cold fusion is still out of reach, and it's very hard to decypher between the lies in the scientific turmoil that happened since the early experiments...
"You're just jealous because the voices in my head only talk to me."

"I only think this stuff up ..
then I have to write it down so it doesn't corrupt the rest of my brain.. "

"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another which states that this has already happened.
-Douglas Adams (The Hitchhicker's Guide to the Galaxy)"