23 replies to this topic

[Robo Dojo 58]

--Edit: I just tried one raid, and you DO get experience from grapple raids! It looks like a really cheap way to get everyone trained, with NO RISK AT ALL. The extra equipment is a bonus. You also get mucho points, so you should never have an excuse for a negative score month. --

It's worth posting it in the X-COM3:Strategy thread. Getting experience and equipment, without putting your troops in danger is a BIG strategy/cheat.

Edited by Robo Dojo 58, 09 March 2004 - 02:33 PM.

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

For those that do not know, this is stun raiding (although I'm no expert in this tactical mission, I'll try to explain it as best as I can):

-Basically, you equip yourself with stun grapples only and go raid an organisation that has neutral or better relations with you. The catch is that since they are not hostile towards you, they won't open fire, and since you are not killing anybody to complete the mission, you are not getting yourself in trouble with the organisation. The thing to remember is that you need to stun every defender in the building to complete the raid, and ppl can usualy wake up from a stun grapple's effect in short time (so you need to set watcher atop bodies).

Pros:
-You will get free equipment, thus free cash.
-You can get certain equipment that is normally not available (psiclones and mind shields are examples).
-You will get tactical mission score, thus doing repeated stun raids increases your week score greatly.
-You can get items that are not available on shops either because it's too early for them to appear or the shops are out of them (example: i have 9 marsec heavy launchers with 24 HE rockets in first week).
-You get to raid ANY kind of building/organisation without upsetting them. If you are bored of those endless Cult of Sirius runs and want to see new scenery, stun raids are your solution.
-If you know which organisation to raid, you won't have to worry about running out of ammo for other tactical missions.

Cons:
-You can improve your soldiers' abilities this way, but they won't get any ranks. So your soldiers can get improved accuracy and reaction fire, but no promotions (this is because you don't get any kills, I think).
-It's sort of abusing a hole in the game and thus may be considered cheating (I don't think Megapol police would agree if you said "Guys let me put you all to sleep while I run away with all the equipment you got here").
-You need enough soldiers to make sure everbody stays asleep. People wake up quick from a stun grapple shot, so you need to have enough soldiers to guard the people you have stunned. This is easy to accomplish in small buildings, but the larger the building, the more men you need.
-The aliens posses technology depending on your weekly score (well, sort of). So there is a feedback effect: if you do a lot of stun raids and thus get a lot of score, the aliens may outgun you badly.

That's about it. I wonder how many people think this is abusing and how many think it's OK to do. I usually raid Megapol and Marsec, though I hear people raid Solmine because it's easier to do and far more rewarding with elerium.


EDIT: I revised the cons part with my findings.

Edited by Jonaleth Irenicus, 10 March 2004 - 05:51 PM.

[Robo Dojo 58]

You will get experience from stun raids, if you do it in real-time. Just park over a few sleeping guys, and they'll get zapped as soon as they wake up.

The only experience I've gotten is Accuracy, and Reactions from parking. Stamina is gained from running around alot. Still, it's free EXP!

[NKF]

It's not running about that raises stamina, but I'm not going to contradict it at the moment as I lack any real evidence to back myself up. (the only stat I am sure about is strength, which can only be raised in the combat gym). But I digress.

One word of advice against stun-raids.

Do NOT over do it.

No no. Not because it's dishonest and exploiting the general stupidity and bottomless pockets of our AI friends (yes, I said bottomless - the balances in the ufopaedia are merely cosmetic and have no real effect) . It's not that. I do it sometimes to steal a power sword in the first week. Guilty as charged.

I mean there's a hidden negative side effect. If you get too many points over a short period due to constant stun-raids, the technology level of the aliens will jump in leaps and bounds the moment the end of the week hits. You might end up facing devestator cannons and entropy launchers way before you are ready to handle them. (the new alien technology rollout is based on your score level).

First time I learnt about stun raids, I overdid it. Before I knew it I was being blasted to shreds with devestator cannons. Being a rookie Apocalypse player, I really wasn't ready for this.

So, stun-raid in moderation. 'kay?

edit: After typing this, I realise that this might apply more to attacking the cult of sirius (who just aren't satisfied with sectoids anymore, by the way) or corporation (insert your favourite enemy here), where the points tend to stack up. It's not so bad for stun-raids, however, there is one other thing you might want to keep in mind.

Any damage done to the building by the organisation's rent-an-idiot's, even though you had nothing to do with it, will be attributed to X-Com. The guards are a bit dim and like to play catch with live munition (often clips, but sometimes the occasional armed proximity mines - you can guess the wackyness that often ensues). Any damage done to the building by the guards will effect the relations of the organisation with X-Com even though it wasn't you that did it. It'll be a very minor effect on your relations, but small things like this can build up to very large consequences in the long run. You can even push the organisation to the point where they no longer accept bribes (although you can still influence them back onto your side with a bit of clever politics)

---

Now, onto less serious matters. If you've got a morbid sense of humour (or you're just plain evil), one variant of the stun raid to the stun-raid is the mind bender raid. In this one, you have to earn your goods by letting your foes 'kill themselves' by jumping off of buildings (and any left over when the mission ends are yours). Works much better if you have teleporters. Sadly, when you get teleporters, cash problems are often a non-issue.

- NKF

Random tip of the day: If you're short on money, one method of getting a good bundle of cash is to make use of the game's economic system. Buy a whole bunch of stormdogs, strip them to parts,then sell everything off in bulk at the individual market prices rather than in package prices. This is the best way of getting a generous cash boost at the start of the game without even touching your activity score! Even when selling prices are reduced by 50%, you'll still get a profit off of the Storm dogs if you buy and sell them every week. If you hoard the standard issue anti-airguard bullets for a few weeks and then sell everything off when the sale price is still at 100%, your bank balance will soar, making that extra Hawk Air Warrior with triple Lineage plasma cannons a reality. Of course, later, once you're harvesting devestator cannons, the extra cash is meaningless. But at the start, where every cent counts, it's a real life saver.

Edited by NKF, 10 March 2004 - 04:45 AM.

[j'ordos]

I took Robo Dojo's post about the stun raids from the forum members apoc game thread, and merged it with this one. Only problem is: now it looks like he started this instead of Jonaleth Irenicus.

Sorry J (always wanted to say J to someone, being bombarded with it myself )

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

It's OK, since it was his idea that got me shecking out stun raids and posting them up here.
I think I'll have to check about getting accuracy increase on such missions, since I didn't notice any the last time I did it.

Overdoing stun raids: Errr... I have like... 4K score on first week. And it's just tuesday. That's not overdoing right?


Calling me J: Sounds nice doesn't it

[NKF]

Well, if you keep it up at that rate, it will be.

But as it is, I wouldn't worry too much about it for now. It's still in the four digit range, which shouldn't be too bad.

If I remember correctly, the pinnacle of alien technology, the personal teleporters, are rolled out when a new week starts with your score is around 75k or so. But don't quote me on that. It's been a while and I might have the figure wrong, or I might be missing an extra one or a zero.

(I confirmed my theory that tech is tied in with your score because I once edited my scores when I was quite well into the game back to 0. When the next week started (very important) and I raided the alien dimension, I was rather disappointed in that I was beset by hoards of brainsuckers. There were still skeletoids, poppers and the usual aliens, but all the weapons reverted back to brainsucker launchers. Nasty.)

- NKF

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

BTW: I have raided Megapol and Marsec a lot of times, and I see the guys throwing stuff aroun (probably prox. mines), but nothing sets the mines off, and so far I haven't damaged a single furniture in any building.

[Robo Dojo 58]

I think that alien technology instantly changes with the score, NKF.

I had an alien alert at the start of the game. I left it alone, and got 4K points from stun-raiding. When I went to the alert, the only arthropod there had a disrupter gun and boomeroid. I had to set it back, to get the Brainsucker launcher that I needed.

Those guys in stun raids throw all sorts of stuff around. Sometimes, they'll throw a loaded proxy mine, so be careful, and pick them off of stunned soldiers.

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

Sorry for second guessing you Robo, it seems you do get stats improved through stun raids. You can't get promotions because you don't kill anybody, but stats can be improved (so you can increase accuracy and reaction fire this way). This fact alone may be enough to push the "stun raid abuse" over the edge and make it "stun raid cheating"

You lose nothing (except time, and not gaming time but real life time) and it has a lot of advantages.

Yet I have a few questions, what items can you get out of raiding? I think you can get elerium from Solmine, but I've never got off with any vehicle weapons/items by raiding their respective organisations.

You get lots of soldier equipment/weapons this way, and rarily I have returned with armor parts from Megapol raids. I don't have specific locations to hit as of now, but usually I prefer police stations of Megapol and arms factories of Marsec.

If I could get vehicle weapons control from them, Cybernet would see a couple of their buildings stripped of all equipment

[Robo Dojo 58]

You get Elerium from many places. The Elerium UFOpaedia report says that major corporations use it like gold.

My favorite place to raid is in the treeless slums.(realtime)There are only 3 exits (west corner, south corner, east corner) which can be easily blocked by 4 people. I then run around with a fifth person with dual grapples, stunning everyone there. After I get a good pile, I leave him there to practice on people waking up. I've managed to get 7Acc and 5Rea on one guy from just one mission. If you swap your guards with the main guy, you can get loads more of experience.

It's not entirely cheating, though, because the aliens do get better tech as you rack up points. You'll be suprized when you do your first mission, and you suddenly see the aliens with disrupter shields and devastators.

[j'ordos]

unfortunately, you can't get vehicle equipment from raiding (except for elerium , even schools have it (for studying?)). There's another thread about that somewhere, mainly about engines, but pretty much the same. Missiles CAN be found, but all you can do to them is blow them up .(note that the 'mission briefing' screen marks those as targets)

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

Hmmm. Then my original choice about target organisations is pretty much a good one. I have found out one thing though: Megapol and Marsec arms factories yield the best results in terms of raiding. The reasons are:

1- Arms factories have 5 levels, pretty small compared to certain 9 leveled buildings.
2- They have very few rooms and these rooms have single doors opening into them (thus you can just seal the room with one guy).
3- There are many open spaces where guards gather to make your job fairly easy
4- Lots of equipment.

My last raid to Marsec yielded a power sword (just one ). I have a team of 10 soldiers equipped with double stun guns (I repeated Megapol runs until I had enough stun guns), I am hoping to get Marsec armour in future raids (if Megapol raids give Megapol armour, why shouldn't Marsec do the same? ).

Unfortunately my score is up to 7k, so I am thinking about leaving stun raids for a while (I hope they don't charge me with disruptor guns next alien attack).

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

I found out that Psyke had been infected with aliens (to a little degree) after giving up my stun raids at 7K score, so I paid the aliens a little visit.

This is Tuesday of first week, in the 3rd diff level (and thus hear me out).

The aliens species were the same as my first alert site, but the blue guys (forgot their name) used boomeroids (!!!) and disruptor guns (!!!). I haven't played 3rd difficulty level before, so I can't be sure if this is a feedback from my stun raids.

It wasn't that bad since I had HE ammo Autocannons, I blew them all apart. However, if I see that the aliens start out gunning me because of this stun raid feedback, well... I think I have a solution to keep the score in balance....

:devilsmile:

Let me just say that Cult of Sirius may soon have to call in LOTS of construction vehicles.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Heh. Bring em on! Anthropods with shields and devestator cannons don't scare me!

[NKF]

Robodojo: In my tests, the technology only changed at the end of each week ( I mean, the reset from high technology all the way back to 0 needed to pass the end of the week). Perhaps the introduction of new technology is added retroactively?

It doesn't really matter I guess.

As for unique equipment acquisition:

elerium : Non-gangs and non-cultists store elerium. This is vehicle ammo, by the way. So if you love the tank plasma cannon (which isn't as awesome as the rumble cannon, but it packs a good punch) or the lineage plasma cannons, you'll really find these a valuable commodity.

Psiclones: Gangs and cultists store psiclones.

So if you look at it another way, it's like the lawful groups store money as elerium pods and the non-lawful groups store money as psiclones.


Marsec armour: Marsec buildings are natural targets. The arms depot is the most promising. You can also obtain these from raids on gangs (at least, I've found some Marsec armour sections in Diablo slums)

Power sword: Arms depot. But I suspect other marsec buildings will have this item too.

Mind Shield (removed item): The Marsec arms depot is about the only place I've found it. But I suspect Marsec building in general may store them, but I'd stick to the arms depot. Can be used to permanently boost psi strength by +20 or so if you leave the mission with this thing turned 'on' (yes, the boosts can stack on top of each other). It's not that useful, but anyone who won't stop until all their stats are maximised will love this little contraption. Not that ridiculously high defenses will stop psionic stun...

Ah, the arms depot, a most wonderful place.

- NKF

Edited by NKF, 11 March 2004 - 01:20 AM.

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

Yes, I have realised Marsec arms depot is probably the equivalent of wonderland

I tried "adjusting" my score by "visiting" Cult of Sirius, and it does seem to work fine except for few problems. If your vehicles miss the temple and start wreaking havoc all over the place, the organisations that own "all over the place" get pretty upset (duh), so I think you should try to visit a temple that is in a more secluded area.

Also, I found out that missle weapons destroy buildings faster with less score penalty. I razed the temple to the ground by using my janitor missled phoenix cars in my first run, ended up getting many organisations upset in the process. So I tried using only laser weapons, and it took me a lot of time to damage a visible portion of the building. Yet, my score was down by 6K before I could destroy it completely!!!

So probably the best idea is to use a single vehicle like Valkyre Int., fly high (so you have less chances of missing the building), and fire on the building until you have enough penalty.

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

After my recent successful stun raids, I have decided that stun raiding is not abusing the game in any way, it's an art. So here it is, the art of stun raiding:

-Dual equip stun guns and set them on snap shot. Aimed is too slow for such a short range, and auto fire misses (especially with rookies).
-Try to get enemy soldiers in groups so you don't have to set one guard per person. In certain maps, you will see that the soldiers hang out together in tight groups. Try to raid such places (or you may choose to bring many soldiers and set one guard per person).
-Raid the organisation that suits your needs, but try raiding places that are more likely to have what you want. If you want soldier equipment, try to raid the "arms factory", not the "flyer factory" (my personal favourite is Marsec Arms Factory).
-If you can get mindshield during one of your raids, use it and leave it functional till the end of the mission. To activate it, take it in your hand and click on it once to get the white rectangle around it.
-If your score gets too high because of repeated stun raids, and you don't want to deal with aliens equipped with superior weapons, wreak havoc on Cult of Sirius temples. This will allow you to adjust your score as you wish.


Right now my tactic is to get 10 ppl equipped with dual stun guns and repeatedly raid the Marsec Arms Factory. You can do it with less than 10 ppl, but sometimes they get to spread around in those small rooms you may end up running out of soldiers (because you have to set guards) before you complete the mission.
I had grabbed one Mind Shield during one of my raids, so I am using it to improve the psi defense of my soldiers (abusing? no, since I do not believe in psi powers and I do not use them against aliens).
To deal with the feedback (score getting too high), I attack Cult of Sirius temples. My initial tactic was to send a Valkyre Interceptor to attack the building with lancer lasers, then send a single hoverbike to deal with the enemy hoverbike (but call the hoverbike back as soon as the enemy one is destroyed). Right now I am thinking of using a tank with a low dmg weapon, since there is a temple very close to my base (and the tank has very little chance of doing dmg to other buildings).
I've seen that if you position your flying craft correctly and fly high, you can avoid dmging other buildings so you don't have unfriendly organisations.

[Robo Dojo 58]

I've had one problem with stunraids- shields. It's impossible to stun a guy using grapples, when they have shields. The only safe way I've found to stun them, is to use stun grenades. Well, PSIonic stunning would work, too.

Be sure to bring a few good PSIonic guys with you on raids late in the game. You'll need them to stun the guys with shields.

You get more money from later raids, because of alien tech. Just be prepared for guys with shields.

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

You mean that when I have completed personal disruptor shield research, the guys in Marsec and Megapol will start using shields in stun raids too?

But that's just plain gay!!!

Oh well, nice things dont last long do they...

[NKF]

No. The organisations receive new technology in the same way that the aliens do. It's based on your score. (not sure if it's overall-so-far or your current total)

The technology rollout for the Mega Primus organisations just goes a little slower than the aliens. The aliens get it first. Then when you reach a certain score level, even if you don't research the tech, the organisations will start using the tech anyway. It's inevitable.

So, no, even if you hoard all the alien equipment, the organisatiosn will still get the tech.

I think the organisations never get as far as the personal teleporter, and they lose out on most of the craft equipment.

BUT, there is a bright side. You will be able to harvest disrupter shields with impunity! One shield is worth a score of stun gas grenades, wouldn't you agree? They take forever to build, and you tend to go through themp pretty quickly. It's nice to be able to grab a couple of shield with a handful of stun grenades (or investing the time and money into letting a hybrid or two train uninterrupted (i.e. not go out on missions and getting hurt) in the psi-gym for a few months straight).

Sure, it's not as easy, but the equipment you get is well worth it (in any case, by the time you do have shields and disrupter shields, cash should no longer be an issue).

- NKF

Edited by NKF, 13 March 2004 - 06:12 PM.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Are you sure that the aliens get new tech first? I remember getting diablo hostile to me via alien infiltration, and then having them raid my base with shields on week 2. The aliens didn't start using them until week 5.

[NKF]

In normal circumstances they shouldn't -- it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

In my campaigns, the organisations take a while to get the new tech after the aliens have introduced them. For example, when they first introduce the disrupter guns, the organisations don't have them. But after you've played the game for a bit, the organisations will start using them.

On the other hand, from what I've seen of the X-Com games, it's always best to expect the unexpected.

I propose a little project anyone currently playing Apocalypse could try. Note your score levels every time a new technology becomes available. Difficulty level and for whom the technology becomes available for should also be considered. With enough statistics gathered, we can probably pinpoint exactly when new tech is enabled and use it as a guide of sorts.

- NKF

Edited by NKF, 13 March 2004 - 06:23 PM.

[Jonaleth Irenicus]

I can't do it in my current game. I'm in serious trouble already (I haven't researched disruptor shield yet and I have to clear a school that's filled with skeletoids, poppers and antropods, mostly equipped with entropy launchers, cannons and dimension missle launchers).

I still have to test to see if dmg done to city actually lowers your score (in terms of alien technology, if not, I'm in serious trouble). I knew the dimension missle would be a problem (compared to entropy launchers), but it just totally rocks against megapol armour (the one that is shot by the missle dies and everybody gets crippled).