Aliens Vs Zerg

[boboriley]

Also, taking data from the starcraft cutscenes is rather pointless, as those are some of the most pointless and innaccurate cutscenes I've seen in a game. It's almost as if they were rendered before the game was finished.

-Hydralisks don't use spines in the cutscenes. Heck, they can't even move upright.

-'lings get p0wned by a slow moving jeep.

-Marines carry a pistol that can kill a hydralisk

-'lings do a little hippity-hop type movement, and look NOTHING like the in-game sprite

-Battleships are massive constructions that completely dominate the battlefield. And take several shots to kill one zergling. And fire one laser at a time.

-Marines apparently have grenade launchers attached to their rifles.

 

Of course, it's been a while since I played the game, but the point is even Starcraft itself isn't consistant, so how can you pull concrete information to apply to an argument taking place in an alternate universe?

[boboriley]

Also, I gotta add that Starcraft the Game doesn't match Starcraft the story; because Starcraft the Game is a superbly balanced strategy title, and Starcraft the Story is a mad rush of zerg vs. entrenched Terran/Protoss positions.

[Adun_Toridas]

yes, unfortunatelly, Stacraft´s history is another matter...

[[stewart]]

Didnt the aliens just have the queen and the rest of them. Zerg have things that fly, they've got big things that fight or small things the can create in large numbers, all kinds of stuff.

 

IIRC the aliens we basically dumb animals not actually the flyers of the "alien" spaceship.

[kafros]

I thought that the Overlords could travel through space, and that's how the Zerg moved to various planets...

[Guest Azrael]

It's so freaking evident: the Aliens are simply invincible.

[kafros]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:StarCraft

 

Well, that portal proves that there are 2 types of gamers:

* The ones that simply play a game (and mostly "waste" their time), and

* The kind of people who can really get involved into that project, learn everything concerning that game, finding all its secrets, etc...

 

Just have a look at that site! So much information! Such a vast storyline!

 

The Xel'Naga came to the Milky Way Galaxy from beyond and were a psionically-attuned, highly advanced race. They had reached what they considered the ultimate stage of evolution, the creation and tending of lesser races.

 

The Xel'Naga's primary intent was purity of form, and to this end they travelled the galaxy, altering many interesting species they had encountered to enhance the species with this purity of form. However, each time they met with failure.

 

The Xel'Naga journeyed to the edge of the galaxy and to the huge engineered world of Aiur. Upon this world they discovered a psionic hunter race which would be known as the Protoss, who displayed amazing strength, speed and resilience. The Xel'Naga took this to be a sign of purity of form. The species also had a unique psionic link. Seeing them as a successful creation, they were named Protoss, meaning "first-born". The Xel'Naga secretly cared for them, and eventually, when they deemed it ready, revealed themselves to them. The site where they first set foot on Aiur was marked by a Temple which they constructed, over a nexus of cosmic energy.

 

The Protoss united, fascinated by these new "gods", and learned much from them. Eventually, however, splits developed among the tribes as they struggled on decisions of what they should think of themselves, their inventions, and the Xel'Naga. The Xel'Naga had worked to unite them in one organization, but instead the tribes split and distanced themselves from each other. Indeed, the split was so severe it caused the disappearance of the psionic link. The Xel'Naga, knowing that they had pushed their creation too far too fast, set off from the world disappointed at their failure. The Protoss had just developed spaceflight, and many saw this retreat as a betrayal. The Protoss ships attacked, stopping a few Xel'Naga vessels. The majority of the Xel'Naga escaped, however.

 

Seeing the problems caused by a species with purity of form, the Xel'Naga now set out to create a race displaying a purity of essence.

 

The Xel'Naga settled over an ash-world named Zerus located in the core of the galaxy, and chose the most insignificant lifeform upon the planet, a larval creature known as the Zerg. While having no ability to affect their physical surroundings, the Zerg had just the traits the Xel'Naga were looking for: genetic versatility and psionic sensitivity. They nurtured these creatures, allowing them to affect their surroundings in almost parasitic ways. Eventually, they began infesting the creatures of the planet, turning them into monstrosities. The Zerg spread rapidly across the planet, infesting or slaying every living lifeform on the surface. In addition to this, they would absorb the creature into their gene pool, allowing the Zerg to replicate and then duplicate them, fueling their rapid growth. The Xel'Naga realized their mistake with the Protoss, and instead of revealing themselves created something to speak for them and contain their collected instincts and sentience. The Overmind was created in the Xel'Naga's fashion to watch over the swarm. The Xel'Naga wanted to centralize the intelligence in the Overmind as opposed to the entire species, like they did with the Protoss. The Overmind, however, was plotting to destroy its creators and spread across the galaxy. A surprise attack was launched against the Xel'Naga, wiping out most of the race's Worldships and the greater whole of the Xel'Naga in the first waves. The ancient ones attempted to flee, but since the Zerg had been able to infest a spaceborne creature, capable of living and thriving in space, they were able to overrun the Xel'Naga Worldships with frightening ferocity and swiftness — consuming their knowledge and eventually leading them onto their eternal journey to the Protoss homeworld of Aiur.

[[stewart]]

It's so freaking evident: the Aliens are simply invincible.

 

Present the evidence then; I mean if a lady in underwear can stop them why not the zerg.

[kafros]

Actually, in order to understand this issue, keep in mind that the Zergs have a lot of different units with various capabilities. If you think that a swarm of zerglings is too much for the Aliens, just think of the AvP movie scene on ancient Earth. I wouldn't like to be in the Predators' position...

 

In addition, some random things for the Aliens:

*

A perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. ... I admire its purity. A survivor. Unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.

* Adult Xenomorphs are quick and agile, and can run along ceilings and walls. They can survive in extreme temperatures, are well-adapted to swimming, and can survive in vacuum for unknown lengths of time. Their movement tends to be silent, and they do not radiate heat as their exoskeletal temperature matches the ambient temperature. They salivate profusely. They are extremely aggressive and persistent, while being totally devoid of fear. They appear to possess considerable intelligence, especially the Queen.

*While the Chestburster was still in an embryonic stage, it was possible that it used the host's DNA to augment its own and acquire any useful traits that the host garnered through natural selection...since the host was adapted to its environment, taking on some of its characteristics would further adapt the newborn alien to its new environment. Another explanation could be that since the eggs seem to be produced asexually, the embryo receives some of its chromosomes from its host to allow for genetic diversity.

 

*Alien³ furthered the debate by having an alien embryo implanted into a dog. The Xenomorphs of the first two films were all implanted in humans, and thus could walk in a bipedal fashion; they also had foot-long spines on their backs for balance and as the Xenomorph in Alien³ moved quadrupedally it did not need these. The "dog-alien", also known to fans as a "runner alien" of Alien³, was visually very different from these, theoretically because it took on some of the DNA of its canine host.[20] It preferred to move in a doglike manner, often running at high speed on all four legs. This new type was far more streamlined and aerodynamic in appearance. The Runner also appears as a multiplayer character in Aliens versus Predator 2.

 

* Think of the hybrid in Alien: Ressurection. Teach that guy to handle a rifle...

 

* Last but not least: @Stewart: Well, Ripley may have killed "1" Alien in each movie, but THAT one Alien usually kills 10+ people . In addition, think of 50 Runners attacking a Terran base, or 30 Predaliens and 3 queens attacking a protoss base. I guess that would be a complete mess

[Adun_Toridas]

hey!!!, the zergs can give us an idea of a new alien creature... perhaps a weak (but fast an in large numbers) of alien broodings... mmm please, let`s discuss it in labs...

[Steelion]

I seem to have missed an assumption somewhere.

 

To me, most zerg would be immune to psionic influences. So far, oly cerebrates, overminds and overlords have shown any indication of having free thought. Zerglings cannot plan, strategise, use tactics on their own. They have to be ordered. Sort of like Sectopods are to Ethereals. And then, with the exception of overlords (which dont appear capable of ordering many zerg on their own so you'd have to take over a fair sized number of 'em) I'd say all those have incredible psionic powers. The Overmind is a no-brainer. It commands the ENTIRE zerg swarm. And cerebrates I'd say are reasonably resistant to psionic influence. If they can control thousands upon thousands of zerg singlehandedly, that's got to count for something.

 

Yeah, sure the zerg are vulnerable to psi-storms, but since when did a psi storm afect the zerg's mind? That appears to be the premise behind Alien psionics, influencing the brain. Protoss psionics appear to be focused towards directing energy.

 

 

On an unrelated note, (I'm not disputing this) but where did you read that BBs were nuclear? I dont remember that in the Ufopedia.

 

I'm not arguing the premise of scourge vs B-ship, but in all reality, how many scourge could it kill in a given amount of time? It looks like it can fire every 5 seconds or so, and can hit up to 4 ships. Thats all that can be proven ingame. So... Over a period of a minute, thats about 20 scourge. Granted the battleship could likely hit more that 4 enemies at once, I doubt it's capacity is anywhere near the 100 or so you'd need to take out a sizeable Scourge fleet. And, be honest. Enough interceptors armed with Avalanches can take out a battleship, so I'd expect scourges to down a battleship in enough numbers (Think 100-200). That may be overkill.

 

Give me proof that a battleship could ill enough scourges over a period of time to eliminate the threat, and I'll concede that.

 

..That is my rant, thank you for reading it.

[gufu]

Alines...

1)Fly in to overminds(celebrates) planet

2)Kill celebrat overmind(Just ram into it by one of UFO's!)

3)Enjoy mindless horde commiting suidide

[Tsereve]

Doomsday device from Interceptor. Game over.

[gufu]

I don't think interseptor to be much of importance here :\

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Overspawn from Apoc > Ultralisk

xD!!

Brain suckers > Anything else

 

I mean come on, the Zerg suck...

 

Btw the seige tanks use Shells, if you look at the damage's in the actual game in Seige mode its Arcalite, which is like explosive shrapnel. and in Tank mode they basically just have a cannon :|

[Vin]

I've only skimmed this topic, but I have an observation to make, if it hasn't been made yet :

 

The Xcom aliens primarily use stealth and hit-and-run tactics to assault earth, subverting countries and organizations rather than simply laying waste to the world. Why? Look at what one relatively small organization accomplishes in stopping them. A group starting at maybe 20ish military troops rising to maybe 200 elite super-soldiers puts a screeching halt to their plans to dominate one world. Twice. They have tech, but neither large-scale tactics nor numbers appear to be on their side.

 

In the course of the Starcraft campaign, the Zerg decimate entire worlds in the space of a few missions. No subversion or trickery, just monstrous brute force and overwhelming numbers. One guy kept mentioning the Zerg losing to the Terrans, but as I recall about the SC campaign, when you came down the it the Zerg whipped the Terran *and* the Protoss up one side and down the other, especially once Kerrigan took the lead. It took their combined strength just to bring down the Overmind, and even that only temporarily scattered the Zerg. Didn't SC:BW end with them(barely) getting a sort of truce with the Zerg, because they couldn't actually stop them? I forget the details, but the point is the Zerg gave two very, very high-tech species a serious run for their money.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

The Aliens have larger numbers than you think, if I do recall in the final level of Apoc they have Infinate !

While the Zerg might have enormous numbers, the aliens dont need them. Since they are much more intelligent than the Zerg. Compare a popper to an infested terren, Strong donkey and kills everything around, Or kills one or two extremely close units.

 

The Aliens also have much more ranged units, the Zerg are easily killed by guns and swords, which the Aliens in Xcom have in abundance, not to mention the shields.

 

The X-Com aliens are just the 3 races of Starcraft combined into one.

 

It only took Two of those races to kill the Zerg.

 

Me sense overkill... xD

[Vin]

Admittedly, the Zerg average pretty low on the think-meats, but they are commanded by what is, essentially, a huge brain, with smaller brains to back it up and help organize things. They aren't tactically inept, so you'll be seeing tactical ambushes and the like.

 

Second, the X-com aliens are hardly anything like a mix of all the aspects of the 3 SC species. They use weapons, sure, but that's like saying Terran = Protoss just because both are known to use technology. The XC aliens have some mind control abilities, but lack the massive destructive power of SC psionicists, like Protoss Templar or Archons. They are like the Zerg only in that they tend to be monstrous in our point of view. If anything, they resemble the Terrans, with a heavy reliance on technology to augment their frail fleshy selves. This may be different in Apoc, I haven't played that one.

 

Finally, my point wasn't numbers(though that plays a role) so much as scale. In any given game, I never hear of huge world-spanning battles between humans and aliens for Xcom. Over decades of trying to conquer our world, they use small-scale combat to the exclusion of anything else, such that a tiny covert group ends up grinding them into dust in the course of a year or two.

 

Even if we multiply the scale of the Xcom battles times 10, that might be 100-200 people killed per skirmish, with 100-150 soldiers battling 200ish aliens. A single SC map might easily involve 5 to 10 times that number of Zerg, not even bothering to adjust for gameplay reducing the scale to something more manageable for the players. Call half of that easily killed zerglings, and you still get 2.5 times the number of aliens in real, genuinely dangerous Zerg. Most Zerg aren't melee either, really. Zerglings and Ultralisks. End of list. And I'd like to see you take an Ultralisk with a sword. Seriously. I'll give you your choice of armor from the Xcom games, even. And even if you do rely on your ranged firepower, how are you going to detect a Lurker ambush? What about that Devourer trick which blocks all ranged fire, preventing you from hurting even the puny zergling? Or his 80 or so friends. Or nevermind Lurkers, what about the fact that *any* Zerg can burrow into hard, tough ground and pop back out at will? Suprise!

 

Earlier someone was arguing that the Zerg air was maddeningly slow compared to even modern aircraft, and easily outranged by alien UFOs. I seem to recall the Protoss glassing a world from orbit with their air-power at some point. In gameplay, no given Protoss ship has "nuke the enemy from wherever you please" range. I'm guessing they scaled it down a bit for gameplay. Call me crazy, but I don't think Wraiths are slow, clunky things that barely manage to get from point A to point B. Or Valkyries. Etc. It seems ridiculous for the Zerg to be fast as fleshy, squishy things, but if a Chryssalid can take a Blaster-Bomb 5 seconds after birth, I'll take mach 5 Mutalisks. The Zerg are shooting for that whole "peak of evolution" thing, after all.

 

Scourge might not move at light-speed, but they are *fast* little bastards. Besides, even if the aliens *do* shoot at them, their UFO weapons are almost certainly designed to destroy enemy air-craft. Take on a fly with a hammer, tell me how it goes. Better yet, take it on by throwing the hammer at it. Now fight off a swarm of bees with your hammer. Bring friends, to help or take pictures. 3 stings and you're "out". That sounds kind of fun, actually, but first I need a stupid "friend" to give my idea to. And a camera.

 

...I didn't mean to type so much. I swear.

[[NKF]]

The Zerg also assimiliate the enemy species that they defeat. So if they were able to take over some of the X-Com aliens, they'd be able to replicate them as well. Zerg-infested Overspawns anyone? Woo~

 

The aliens in X-Com are quite similar. They have a few overarching alien races, like the Sectoids and Ethereals in UFO, Aquatoids in TFTD, or the Micronoids in Apocalypse. All the species under them are engieneered or beaten into their service through simple conquest (Snakemen, Gillmen), or through more forceful and invasive means (Xarquids, all the aliens in Apocalypse). Heck, the aliens species from the first two game may have worked together, but the micronoids in Apocalypse are a whole different race, who use sectoids to feed their vassals.

 

As pointed out, the difference between the X-Com aliens and the Zerg aliens is their scale. X-Com aliens in the first two games used small-squad tactics to terrorise their enemies into submission. The Zerg were just the epitome of the tank rush.

 

The micronoids, who are nothing more than some intelligent flu virus, could probably be contender with the overminds, assuming they could get their hands on some half decent species.

 

Eh, it's rather futile to say which of the two are better. Your favourite species always wins, after all.

 

- NKF

[Gurluas2000]

Zergs would clearly win... try to remember that humans...weak humans...with normal wespon(in the first missions) can damage the aliens, now...the zergs are by far MORE advanced... with a great HORDE...also a wraith or a scout is MANY MANY times faster than an interceptor...

your arguments just doestn work...the best way to be sure of who wins is to make an sc map named: aliens vs zerg. (:

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Well, That Oppinion seems a little Biased.

 

And By the way, a Cruise ship is faster than a Motor boat.

The Intercepter only seems slower to you since its Bigger.

[Adun_Toridas]

My god, this topic got very, very, very old...

[NaughtiusMaximus]

Only way zerg could win is to use their ability to either make hybrids by mixing aliens & zerg, or by further evolving into something bigger, smarter and more powerful.

 

In one of the games or novels it was said that once even a small squad of zerg touches a planet, it will be impossible to get rid of them afterwards.

[Steelion]

I still think the Zerg would overwhelm with superior numbers.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

The Zerg are unable to move from planet to planet on their own though. D:...

Apparently in Interceptor according to Podtech the aliens had somewhat of a deathstar.. O_o..

 

Usually the deathstar wins, since the Zerg lack Force and Photon Torpedo's PEW PEW!

[Steelion]

Zerg have Overspawns. Space-travel capable, apparently. How else do they get from planet to planet?

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

They seem to hide on Terran vessels ^^..'

[Steelion]

Well, they did manage to get around before the Terran came around you know.

[[NKF]]

The in-game cinematics do suggest that their Overlords (floating farms/personnel carrier/scout hybrids - handy, aren't they?) and their flyers are capable of space travel. I distinctly remember a cinematic in the expansion pack a mass of Guardians (the upgraded air-to-ground variant of the Mutalisks) flying through space.

 

Wonder if the Zerg ever encountered the Borg? Except for the alien vs. human with ridges on head difference, they both assimilate other species into their own. The Zerg have the rapid reproduction factor though.

 

- NKF

Edited July 30, 2007 by NKF

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Well the Borg sorta do, if they have enough bodies :x..

Im not really a star trek person myself.

*Jedi*

[gufu]

They seem to hide on Terran vessels ^^..'

 

Sir - we don't allow WMD's or pets in here, please keep you're zerg drones on the planet.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

*hides furby* x;

[Ylenard]

To me it seems like:

-standart terran marine ~=~ soldier with AP autocannon and power armor

-heavy plasma ~=~ dragoons plasma cannon(they did have plasma cannons, right?... )

-blaster bomb ~=~ scarab

 

Its pretty difficult to compare two totally different settings, so one has to make some assumptions.

 

On this basis Id guess that a single zergling has a battle worth of about one superhuman reaper(with better AI god damn it!!! )

Since hydralisks are both much more damage resistant then marines, and do cause almost twice as much damage, Id estimate them as something around a superhuman Muton with a laser rifle.

 

based on this assumptions Id say the zerg would totally dominate ground battles. IMO starcraft simply happens on a lot higher tech level then X-com fights, and Protoss are a much better version of ethereals - both when it comes to tech and their PSI.

[gufu]

But can we all agree what all the Aliens would have to do is to NUKE the Overmind?

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Ylenard, the protoss arent part of this

the zerg are a brute race of aliens, while X-Coms have a various array of terror weapons, ufo's, various ground troops, and quite a high reproduction rate, where a multiworm bursts into 3 or 4 worms and each worm may become a cacoon.

while not as fast as the queens reproduction, the multiworms have much greater ability to reproduce and cause havoc among all.

 

The Overmind while intelligent, is a relatively weak creature physically.

other than its swarms of zerglings, it has no real defense of its own.

 

Also, X-com aliens have AREA OF EFFECT DAMAGE

What greater numbers? I just nuked them. O:

[NinthRank]

Well, no doubt it's difficult to compare two completely different universes, but I tried to take a mathematical approach.

 

First, I made some assumptions (unavoidable, unfortunately): the Terran civilian's health is the same as the X-COM civilian's health, a powersuited soldier with a rifle and three clips is about equal in cost to a Terran Firebat, a fully upgraded Marine has the same armor as a power suit, and a Muton with a Heavy Plasma should be the same price as the powersuited soldier carrying a Heavy Plasma and three clips. Also a rifle might fire as fast as the Marine's Gauss Rifle. Another majorly simplifying assumption was that guns only damage health. (Assuming that they only damage armor, then with these numbers, the mighty Heavy Plasma does a measly 4 damage!)

 

Running the numbers, I got a StarCraft ground unit with 109 HP, a base armor of 3, an attack of 100 (!!!) with a ROF as fast as the Terran Marine, and costing 120 minerals and 40 gas (to simulate elerium). That's one killer unit for about as much as a Terran Goliath!

 

Granted, I could have used different numbers, but it seems apparent the X-COM ground battles are balanced up higher than StarCraft ground battles! ROFL

 

Edit: As could have been expected when I was tired and rushed, I gunked up some of the numbers. Looks like the Muton's health becomes 167 and the Heavy Plasma's damage becomes 153. Multiplying by accuracy, though (which has no real equivalent in StarCraft), lowers damage to a more reasonable value of 41. Still, this is on the powerful side for StarCraft.

 

Edit2: This post is really confusing, so I'll just say here that this is supposed to be a Muton Soldier translated into StarCraft.

Edited October 5, 2007 by NinthRank

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

so I take it you are on the side of Xcom?

[NinthRank]

That's how I voted. Go Aliens!!!

 

I just had the funniest thought: the aliens and the Zerg racing to see who can kill humans faster....

 

You meant X-COM aliens, right? Although the humans are cool, I was actually talking about the aliens.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

but of course.

 

Also, due to one piece of information you didnt seem to work out..

 

Speed. D:

 

an unarmored human is quite vulnerable to blood loss and injury, while the civilians you were speaking of are not.

so Speed is a fairly important factor, as the more times a zergling can stab and bite people, the more they bleed to death.

 

Also, only Apocalypse would fare well against starcraft, as 1 and 2 are both turn based

 

x-com agent1-" WHY WONT THEIR TURN END!"

x-com agent2-"I DUNNO MAN. I THOUGHT WE HAD THE ADVANTAGE MOVING FIRST ]:"

zergling- "OM NOM NOM NOM D:<"

[gufu]

But think of the reaction fires! Zerglings are loud!

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

with the fact they always come in groups of atleast 2, you wouldnt have enough tp's

 

Truth of the matter is, Aliens only beat zerg in real time.

The zerg are never turn based, so they dont need to deal with Tp's.. Lucky pricks D:

[Aiki-Knight]

I think anyone who's played Starcraft as humans can't even fantasize that an XCOM team could ward off a Zerg hive assault. I mean, yeah, an XCOM squad can take aliens, who arrive in small numbers, and can't seem to beat XCOM. Does anyone here actually think their XCOM org could last 2 seconds against a single, computer controlled Zerg opponent from Starcraft, the way those Zerg groups attack? I mean, no bunkers, no choke points, no siege tanks - XCOM agents wouldn't stand a chance. And that's the answer to the question. You can beat the aliens with your squads, but you could never hold off the Zerg.

 

Even if the aliens did fight in large numbers, without a major overhaul of the way they do business, they couldn't survive. They don't have air support, and have no armor. Their fire rate is low, and megaspawns couldn't hold back being rushed. The XCOM universe just doesn't operate on the scale of the Starcraft universe, and doesn't have the gear to do so. Think of how easily Terran marines get annihilated by Zerg without bunkers and armor. I think XCOM agents are definitely tougher than Terran marines, as XCOM agents can improve, have shields, grenades, missiles, cloaks, etc. But the Zerg and Protoss are another thing entirely. Starcraft humans can only fight them with lots and lots of heavy equipment. And lots and lots and lots.

 

Of course, if XCOM could be endlessly improved with new ideas about mechanized warfare and air support, then maybe there'd be a debate here. And, of course, I'd never leave the house.

[[NKF]]

Yes, it's all back to differences in scale, isn't it? I want X-Com walking robot tanks, mobile suits and heavy artillary dammit!

 

But getting back to putting X-Com units into a Starcraft setting, in my mind your bog standard X-com or aliens trooper would probably be something on the same level as a Starcraft ghost. A special ops unit. Weak (as in would get killed instantly by most attacks) but with a decent long ranged anti-personnel weapon and a pack load of useful tools on hand. Most of the time having to rely on stealth and cover to operate efficiently. Actually, with X-Com and alien forces, they'd have more tricks up their sleeves thanks to the variety of tools they get. And if you count Apocalypse tools, there's disrupter shields as well, allowing them 50% regenerating and 50% non-regenerating health like the Protoss.

 

Now anyone care to start a discussion on inserting X-Com into other settings? Such as a wild west setting?

 

- NKF

[Aiki-Knight]

Yes, it's all back to differences in scale, isn't it? I want X-Com walking robot tanks, mobile suits and heavy artillary dammit!

 

But getting back to putting X-Com units into a Starcraft setting, in my mind your bog standard X-com or aliens trooper would probably be something on the same level as a Starcraft ghost. A special ops unit. Weak (as in would get killed instantly by most attacks) but with a decent long ranged anti-personnel weapon and a pack load of useful tools on hand. Most of the time having to rely on stealth and cover to operate efficiently. Actually, with X-Com and alien forces, they'd have more tricks up their sleeves thanks to the variety of tools they get. And if you count Apocalypse tools, there's disrupter shields as well, allowing them 50% regenerating and 50% non-regenerating health like the Protoss.

 

Now anyone care to start a discussion on inserting X-Com into other settings? Such as a wild west setting?

 

- NKF

 

You know, I was looking over the discussion, and I really thought about my time playing StarCraft, and the realities of fighting the Zerg, with XCOM agents. Let me take you back there.

 

Imagine it: you're playing, say, the Green Valleys map. And let's be generous: you've got all 100 XCOM3 agents, complete with near-100 across-the-board stats, the disruptor armor, shields, full gear, dimension missiles, whatever you want. How, how are you going to defend your position against a single Zerg computer opponent?

 

Think about it. You've got no bunkers, no storage facilities to create tiny choke points. No 16 siege tanks to dole out the massive splash damage. No walkers to shoot down mutalisks or guardians. No drone droids to repair your gear even as it's being attacked. No medics to heal up your personnel to 100% health. You have 100 XCOM agents, either with human weapons that run out of ammo, or slow-firing devastators than run out of batteries. Your medi-kits can only stabilize agents, not heal them. And there's no evac, no map-exit points. You're in a Starcraft map, and you're all alone.

 

Then the zerglings come.

 

Now I think 100 X3 super-commandos could take the first wave of 12 zerglings out. If your agents fell back into a broad U-shaped line to maximize firepower on the entrance, I think you'd get 'em. But then, the hydralisks would arrive. Remember them? Remember how they'd come in hordes and manage to set your bunkers on fire and damage your phalanx of siege tanks, even as the tanks were bombarding them? Remember how much fire it took to kill them? A wave of 12 hydras would storm in and hurt agents. Maybe drop some shields. And use up some serious ammo, or batteries, in the process. And the next wave wouldn't be far away.

 

That wave used to consist of a zergling rush squad, a couple of dozen hydralisks, and an ultralisk or two. The zerglings would draw fire as they rushed the agents, giving the hydras time to form up and shoot. That many hydras would drop a lot of personal disruptor shields and even kill a few agents. Of course, when the 2 ultralisks stormed in, pretty-well nothing could prevent them from reaching the XCOM agents and beginning the extreme slaughter. The ultralisks would break the XCOM formation, and your agents would have to re-form into platoons of survivors while they tried to kill off the ultralisks and hydralisks. You'd be mighty low on gear, and have lost quite a few agents. More would be without shields, many injured.

 

Now, does anyone not remember how relentless those zerg waves became? Anyone remember this scene: you've got a monstrous front gate with tanks, bunkers, storage facilities in front of the bunkers, etc, and even as you're mopping up one wave, another streams in? And you'd think, "Holy Crad! How'd they get here so fast?" I remember actually losing a perfect front gate or two in multiple-player games, and having to fall back on a second line of bunkers, which I'd have ready for such an occasion, to prevent them from penetrating the heart of the base.

 

But there would be no gate. No second line. And then the flyers would come.

 

Maybe we've got our annihilators, with disruptors and disruptor bombs. The mutalisks, scourge, and purple-spitting units (can't remember their name) would start hurting them. And that's when the guardians and queens would arrive. How fast would queens' infesting thingies and guardians' fire tear apart XCOM agents? And that's not even considering the additional waves of zerglings, hydras, ultralisks and lurkers that would penetrate the entrance and start going into overdrive. Remember how frenzied hydralisks fired once they'd been upgraded? The Zerg would absolutely tear apart your XCOM org. It's a nightmare just to think about it. You can't "build" more units, you can't make armored vehicles. Your precious commandos, whom you've carefully trained and led, nurtured, fostered, protected, cultivated - surrounded and just slaughtered. This is the zerg. XCOM agents wouldn't stand the slightest chance. It hurts me - physically hurts me - to think about it.

 

The so-called XCOM aliens aren't nearly as good at XCOM combat as XCOM agents. Even with equal numbers, could a hundred XCOM agents beat 100 hydralisks? You know - maybe late-game super-troopers. But not the second hundred, who'd arrive a few minutes later.

 

Imagine THAT ending for XCOM apocalypse: you come back from the dimension-gate mission, all victorious. And then the Zerg invade the city. Starcraft-style.

 

Now, if XCOM could be open-ended, so that you could bring in the types of equipment and combined-arms approaches of other games, within XCOM's technological milieu, you'd have something. Think of regular main battle tanks kitted out with XCOM-universe tech like vehicle shields, dimension-missle launchers, monster cannons. Infantry fighting vehicles of a similar ilk. Heavy ground-assault aircraft. Shuttles that could fast-drop equipment or pick up agents. Mech walkers with guns and missiles. The whole thing. Then maybe you'd have a great new idea. But until the XCOM aliens could learn to stop sucking so badly, they would be crushed. I mean, if you could take a whole StarCraft Terran player's "unit" and use it against an Aliens:250 UFO crew, it'd be a cake-walk.

 

If only we could get the XCOM aliens to invade the Terrans or the Protoss. THAT'D teach 'em a LESSON!

[Adun_Toridas]

And That?s without considering that (in Tarsonics Battle) there were one trillion of Zergs... (and lotsa billions in Aiurs Battle) and about deathstars, dont forget that lotsa scourges can take it down as well as they did with Duke?s BattleCruisser (and they needed only two to do the job).

 

Zergs are just too much... to much to be defeated with such a single force as Xcom or Aliens. Moreover (as i said one year befor i guess) Zegs can also increase their reproduction rates, so if you nuke them, no problema... you will get more of them in a matter of minutes.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Aiki.. You seem to fail to realize..

The X-Com universe DOES have all that heavy machinery!

 

Even in just Apocalypse alone theres a vast variety of vehicles you could use, and alot of them have unlimited ammo such as the plasma defense which can shoot extremly fast at about 200 metre's if I remember correctly.

Good Bye Ultralisks.

 

The real trick is the Apc's and the AIR SUPPORT which you claimed to not exist.

 

If we are using the starcraft physics and world for our Xcom agents, its pretty clear that you need to convert our vehicles to work in the same manner as the starcraft do.

 

 

Look at the size of a battleship in Sc, compare it to a marine.

Now compare an X-com sized human to an Xcom sized ship.

 

Very Good air support indeed ^-^

[NinthRank]

If we get Apoc stuff too (to mix and match), I'd say drag an Ethereal into a Psi Gym and then a Training Facility until it's got 100 stats across the board. In X-COM, the Aliens could MC beyond visual range without Psi-Amps, so you could kit the Ethereal out with dual Devastators (or maybe X-COM 1 Laser Rifles if you're worried about slow recharging) and also the best armor available (Flying Suit or Disruptor Armor, I don't know which works out better) with Disruptor Shields. But he wouldn't have to do much shooting, 'cause 100 on psi is pretty much a sure MC, and each Super-Ethereal could MC up to three Zerg (maybe four, I don't know how TU's work in Apoc) at a time. That means that 100 Ethereal troopers will MC the first 300 Zerg attackers, who will attack and kill the next 300 or so. Before they even enter visual range.

 

MC'ing Zerg shouldn't be too hard either -- you could MC Reapers and Sectopods in X-COM 1. I'll guess that the only tough ones might by Ghosts and Protoss (high psi).

 

So stop worrying, Aiki!

 

Of course, vehicle combat would be much harder to decipher, as X-COM 1's is different from Apoc's is different from StarCraft's.

 

EDIT: Oh, right, HWP's! Use Hovertank/Launchers! Your base insurance covers the ammo, so you won't need to worry about that! Full load for every wave of Zerg.

 

EDIT2: Assuming, of course, that we don't get unlimited ammo in the first place.

Edited October 17, 2007 by NinthRank

[[NKF]]

Base insurance covering tank ammo. Now that's a great way of explaining it. I'm including that in the Ufopaedia wiki!

 

Hate to throw a spanner in the works to whomever mentioned unlimited ammo for Apocalypse ships: There aren't too many units in the Starcraft universe that suffer from ammo limitations, so that's not all that special. Starcraft units all have infinite ammo or recharging ammo (like the Yamato cannon). Those that require ammo to be built like the reavers or nukes are the exception. X-Com just has more weapons that require ammo - though their middle to top tier weapons are recharging/infinite in ammo, so it evens up in the end.

 

Just realised, Apocalypse has the land counterpart to the Zerg Scourges. Poppers. Great counter-zergling/hydralisk rush measures - assuming you have enough of them and they don't blow each other up.

 

Boomeroids too would be great against countering rushes. Proximity mines souped up with stun grenades or incendiary rounds can also be used to spice things up. Small launchers and thermal shok launchers are also capital anti mob weapons. Just need to grenade the unconcious heap of zerglings afterwards!

 

Vibroblades, power swords, stun rods and stun grapples would also be great anti zergling weapons for when they get up close. The power sword and vibroblades in particular would make mincemeat of them.

 

A veritable army of lobstermen would also be quite handy, thanks to their insane damage modifiers against most damage types from ranged combatants. They might even survive at least one blast from an arclite cannon (and almost completely shrug off the splash effect). However they will be vulnerable to zerglings and ultralisks. Are there any Starcraft enemies that specialise in paralysis? Ghost's lockdowns don't really count. Their low resistance to psi is a non-issue, since Zergs haven't got any mind control ability. Against the Protoss however, no unit can avoid a Dark Templar's mind control attack.

 

Pitting silly game mechanics from completely different games against each other is fun at times, I guess.

 

So the wild west one isn't attracting any attention, I wonder what would happen if the X-Com universe were to be set against Starcraft's friendly rival, the entire Command and Conquer series? Or Super Mario? Tetris? The sillier, the more entertaining the explanations.

 

Er, never mind.

 

 

- NKF

Edited October 17, 2007 by NKF

[Sorrow]

Base insurance covering tank ammo. Now that's a great way of explaining it. I'm including that in the Ufopaedia wiki!

 

Hate to throw a spanner in the works to whomever mentioned unlimited ammo for Apocalypse ships: There aren't too many units in the Starcraft universe that suffer from ammo limitations, so that's not all that special. Starcraft units all have infinite ammo or recharging ammo (like the Yamato cannon). Those that require ammo to be built like the reavers or nukes are the exception. X-Com just has more weapons that require ammo - though their middle to top tier weapons are recharging/infinite in ammo, so it evens up in the end.

I wouldn't compare amount of ammo or unit parameters of Starcraft and X-Com - Starcraft isn't a realistic game and doesn't show how things really look in that world.

Edited October 17, 2007 by Sorrow

[Aiki-Knight]

Base insurance covering tank ammo. Now that's a great way of explaining it. I'm including that in the Ufopaedia wiki!

 

Hate to throw a spanner in the works to whomever mentioned unlimited ammo for Apocalypse ships: There aren't too many units in the Starcraft universe that suffer from ammo limitations, so that's not all that special. Starcraft units all have infinite ammo or recharging ammo (like the Yamato cannon). Those that require ammo to be built like the reavers or nukes are the exception. X-Com just has more weapons that require ammo - though their middle to top tier weapons are recharging/infinite in ammo, so it evens up in the end.

 

Just realised, Apocalypse has the land counterpart to the Zerg Scourges. Poppers. Great counter-zergling/hydralisk rush measures - assuming you have enough of them and they don't blow each other up.

 

Boomeroids too would be great against countering rushes. Proximity mines souped up with stun grenades or incendiary rounds can also be used to spice things up. Small launchers and thermal shok launchers are also capital anti mob weapons. Just need to grenade the unconcious heap of zerglings afterwards!

 

Vibroblades, power swords, stun rods and stun grapples would also be great anti zergling weapons for when they get up close. The power sword and vibroblades in particular would make mincemeat of them.

 

A veritable army of lobstermen would also be quite handy, thanks to their insane damage modifiers against most damage types from ranged combatants. They might even survive at least one blast from an arclite cannon (and almost completely shrug off the splash effect). However they will be vulnerable to zerglings and ultralisks. Are there any Starcraft enemies that specialise in paralysis? Ghost's lockdowns don't really count. Their low resistance to psi is a non-issue, since Zergs haven't got any mind control ability. Against the Protoss however, no unit can avoid a Dark Templar's mind control attack.

 

Pitting silly game mechanics from completely different games against each other is fun at times, I guess.

 

So the wild west one isn't attracting any attention, I wonder what would happen if the X-Com universe were to be set against Starcraft's friendly rival, the entire Command and Conquer series? Or Super Mario? Tetris? The sillier, the more entertaining the explanations.

 

Er, never mind.

 

 

- NKF

 

Ha - imagine you boot up Donkey Kong, only to find you've got a full late-game XCOM squad to take care of the beast. A couple stun grenades and a call to the zoo and we'd be off for an early lunch.