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Multiple Skyrangers/UFO's


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#1 NickJones

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Posted 10 January 2004 - 08:22 PM

I would enjoy being able to send more then one Skyranger (or whatever transport craft you use) into a mission. Much like the alien base attacks where there are 2 deploy zones opposed to one in the other missions. I have tried to employ this option in X-COM: UFO Defense, but to no avail.

BENIFITS:
-It would add another strategic aspect to the game.
-It would allow the player(s) an alternative to sacrificing a few units to gain ground outside of the ship.
-It would be nifty
-It would allow more units to be taken. (this may make it easyer, but hey, if you wanna spend the time moving all those units be my guest)
-Possible the option of having one ship take off with wounded soldiers or to evac citizens.


Hey, maybe more then one UFO too eh? A ufo aids a crashed ship, x-com drops in before they can leave? It would make you think twice before waiting a day or two before going to a crash site. or maybe you enjoy the extra dead bodies you sick bastard.

#2 dipstick

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 02:56 AM

Well, I believe the multiple UFO theory has been discussed, but I personally think it is an exceptional idea. (I even wrote CTDs for two new classes of UFO to help it along! :D)

The multiple XCOM craft in combat has also been mulled over, for a long time, but multiple craft on the surface I don't remember. That would make for some interesting scenarios. Maybe one skyranger full of psi-specialists, and an avenger full of crack troops? Hmmmm
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#3 tzuchan

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 03:43 AM

Would be real hard to balance...

What's to keep someone from flooding a crash site with 4 fully loaded avengers from 4 different bases?

Now, perhaps if we limit it to that they can ONLY call for backup when they are in the battlescape and can only call in one plane. I once had an idea of turning the Lighting into a six pax rapid response transport. Now if we also make it that it's the only craft that can provide backup in the battlescape...

and about evac wounded soldiers/civvies, sounds interesting, but how are we going to get the civvies into the plane? Are the civvies going to become like MCed units when they get within a certain distance from the x-com soldiers? That might work initially before power suits, but once you get that, the civvies would be more likely to run... Might be fun if you HAVE to keep a couple of soldiers unarmored in order to act as civilian liasons...
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#4 demich

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 07:02 AM

- possibility of civilians evacuation is a nice idea :). Thay can be evacuated with first transport ship(to another area 20turns(80sec?) away :) ) and your soldiers will have to wait until skyranger comes back or until they kill all aliens :)

- Evacuating civies.. remeber the calcinite from TFTD? He looked exactly like xcom soldier (the color was diffrent), calcinite-similar alien or zombie are nice aliens who can use their appearance to lure civies and slay them. "Come. Transport. Come" "Oh thank you..AARGh" :devillaugh:. And this will count just as the player would kill civilian :)

- about calling reinforcements... Player calls for them --> the battlescape turns off(end of mission) and switches to geoscape -> there player chooses the craft and sends it to mission site -> When the new craft arrives mission starts again ofcourse there are xcom soldiers from previous mission and palayer can contact(and control them) with them when he finds previous ship(heavily damaged by aliens ofcourse - this is the reason why player lost connection with previous team :) or when he finds a single soldier. Soldiers can barricade in house with civies, the house is surrounded by chryssalids etc.

--edit--

about multiple ufos... battleship can be escorted by 3 or 4 large scouts. Then sending multiple avengers to crash site is higly recomended :). There can be possibility, on higher difficulty levels, that two battleship will fly together :). Then there is a reason to send 2 avengers :)

Edited by demich, 11 January 2004 - 07:10 AM.


#5 ATeX

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 07:39 AM

Wow! The idea certainly opens a lot of new doors for gameplay. But just as tzuchan says, it'll be very hard to balance I think. With enough limitations it'll definitely improve the game.

Maybe aircraft would have to be more expensive so that when u send more, u still have that risk of losing a big deal of your offensive part.

Or maybe even better:
As the aliens land with multiple craft, u can send just as much aircraft as they have on the ground. Maybe that'ld balance it :).

#6 Puasonen

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 07:46 AM

It's a good idea on the paper but as so many of you have said, it would be almost impossible to balance it. It's better to have just one craft and if you want more people to the battle, you just make avenger which carries more people.. Simple and it works.
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#7 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 09:04 AM

But what if you want more than 28 people? What if you want an extra skyranger's worth?
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#8 tzuchan

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 09:54 AM

And when would you need more than 28 soldiers? When will 28+ elite soldiers in flying suits not be overkill?
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#9 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 10:02 AM

On Cydonia. There are plans to make that one tough nut to crack. Possibly even a 4 part mission!!!
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#10 RustedSoul

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 10:12 AM

i'm thinking 2 fully loaded skyrangers to deal with those pesky single manned ufo scouts.

may the hunt begin

#11 Whitewashed

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 11:11 AM

It's a good idea on the paper but as so many of you have said, it would be almost impossible to balance it. It's better to have just one craft and if you want more people to the battle, you just make avenger which carries more people.. Simple and it works.

Agreed, it will make the missions too easy if you can bring 50 soldiers and 10 tanks to them.

#12 dipstick

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 12:07 PM

Easy - bigger maps + more aliens = more potential for needing more ships.

by that equation - if we had one downed terror ship, escorted by 2 escort class(patent pending dipstick) UFOs, being repaired by Large Repair Ship (patent pending dipstck) then a wholelot of aliens would be there - possibly multi race as well (eg etheral terror, muton escorts,and sectoid repair) then you would need more than one skyranger to take them out!

It could be limited on easier levels, or maybe on harder levels instead to up the difficulty?? Surely there could be a logical reason to cap??
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#13 Puasonen

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 02:18 PM

How would you explain why you can't bring more than 1 craft to EVERY mission? And I wouldn't even want to move 10 tanks and 50 soldiers every turn. It would become boring very fast.. :zzzzz:
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#14 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 02:57 PM

I tried that once, on a base attack. I had like 50 soldiers and 3 tanks. Most (Around 35) just stayed where they were for the entire battle. :)

Edit for clarity: When one of my bases was attacked, I had 50 men and 3 tanks.

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 11 January 2004 - 02:57 PM.

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#15 Whitewashed

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 03:06 PM

Well how do you get 2 craft to get to a site at the same time. If you send them from separate bases it will take much longer for either of them to reach the site and I doubt the other craft would sit there waiting while the aliens are on the ground doing whatever they're doing. Would you then have the second craft to arrive in the middle of the mission and how would it be able to find a good landing spot? Even if the 2 crafts come from the same base either of them is bound to get to the site first. Isn't the mission activated as a craft gets to the site? How would it know that another craft is going to geth there afterwards?

Anyway, if there's not enough aliens to kill in alien bases and battleships and if 28 soldiers isn't enough to move around in one battle... :hammer:

Placing several alien and X-com crafts in the same battle would need a huge site that would take forever to cleanse. Isn't the UFO craft missions meant to be relatively short anyway, it would take ages get anywhere in the game if the missions were this big. Why would the aliens even send more than one ship anywhere? The crafts are specifically designed to fit certain types of missions. I doubt the brain cares that much about his soldiers to send another craft just to rescue any of them.

#16 demich

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 03:07 PM

You can group soldiers :) max 5 per group you order the team leader and other follow orders. :)

#17 Whitewashed

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 03:13 PM

You can group soldiers :) max 5 per group you order the team leader and other follow orders. :)

Now this is a feature I'd like to see in Xenocide, moving groups instead of every single soldier separately

#18 NickJones

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 05:28 PM

Very good points. I believe i can provide some awnsers as I have thought over this topic many times.

BALANCE:
Balance would be an issue, however, the game is already unbalanced. You can save during any turn, before after or whenever you want. So if you dont like the outcome of a mission, then you simply load it up. I personally have never "lost" a mission, that is to say, whenever ive actually lost, i simply load the game. I have played games where i say "what happens happens" but the possibility to load the game is always there.

TO MANY TROOPS:
This can be solved by decreasing the size of the transport crafts. In X-com apocolyps you could send any number of agents you wanted. However, having more troops usually resulted in more casualties. I dont see how someone who wants to spend an hour each turn moving their 50 guys should be limited.

MAPS TOO BIG:
The maps WOULD have to be a bit larger to allow all ships their own 10x10 or whatnot space required. HOWEVER, if a ship cannot find a spot to land, well then it doesnt have to be in the battle. This woudl be a deturant for sending many crafts. The greater number of ships you send, the harder it is for ALL of them to land.

DIFFERENT E.T.A.:
In X-COM A all craft went to the landing site asap. X-com could employ a eta calculator that would launch all ships at times that would allow them to rondevus (or however you spell that) at the same time.

TOO BORING:
This isnt to make it boring because you HAVE to bring 50 guys, Its just to allow you the option. Maybe there should be a few mission where 20 or so agents are needed (bases, terrior sites, very larger crash sites), but every mission should NOT need a full compliment of troops.

POSSIBLE USER CHOICE:
Giving the users a choice in the matter before the game is started will allow all sides to be happy. Of course, this will make it harder for the programers, they will have to make a code that correctly changes the game w/out destroying its playability.

SQUAD MOVEMENT:
I like this idea. It was implimented in X-Com A and made the game much quicker when your searching for that last naked half dead purple thing. (please please please dont make the aliens as weird in xenocide as they were in apocolyps)

AMMO??
Wow, having more stuff to shoot might actually give a use to extra ammo with alien tech!

#19 Whitewashed

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 06:44 PM

But in Apocalypse you still could only go to the crash sites with 1 ship. The ships didn't show up on the mission screens either. In Xenocide all ships would have to show up on the site or none.

Still about the multiple UFOs: even if there would be several UFOs sent out on the same mission I doubt you'd shoot them down so close to each other that they would be in the same mission screen and I really doubt they would send more than 1 ship to one site.

Multiple ship missions shouldn't be made for V1 at least, it will take far too much work and I don't think it's a necessary feature

#20 NickJones

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Posted 11 January 2004 - 09:52 PM

There is no doubt they wont be in V1.

And good point about the crash site. But i have witnessed multiable UFOs that have landed in the same space.

You can bring more than 1 ship in x-com A. You could bring 20 if you wanted.

#21 Puasonen

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 01:43 AM

BALANCE:
Balance would be an issue, however, the game is already unbalanced. You can save during any turn, before after or whenever you want. So if you dont like the outcome of a mission, then you simply load it up. I personally have never "lost" a mission, that is to say, whenever ive actually lost, i simply load the game. I have played games where i say "what happens happens" but the possibility to load the game is always there.

SQUAD MOVEMENT:
I like this idea. It was implimented in X-Com A and made the game much quicker when your searching for that last naked half dead purple thing. (please please please dont make the aliens as weird in xenocide as they were in apocolyps)

BALANCE:
The best thing about the x-coms was that you never were forced to cheat by loading. I really must say that I'm against the idea that makes this game a "save/load and try again" game. NO! I'm against it and will fight against it until I die! :sly:
Don't ruin the game!

SQUAD MOVEMENT:
I agree, I liked how it was done in apoc. Definitely V1+ issue though.
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#22 j'ordos

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Posted 12 January 2004 - 01:14 PM

About the multiple ships/crash sites: we could allow it, and we can balance it by making the transporters smaller or the UFO's larger, and most of all by increasing the rate at which UFO's appear. This means you get the choice of attacking a UFO with 3 Skyrangers, but that means they'll most likely be unavailable when the next UFO(s) appears (of course not investigating a crash site gives a penalty :naughty: ), so you still can't just send dozens of troops at each site, only at the ones you think will matter most, and at the expense of those you think are less important.
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#23 NickJones

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 01:12 PM

That would help balance it only if funds were balanced as well. Later in the game funds reach the point where 500k a month is nothing.

I would have to be againts the higher appearence rate. To me X-Com begins to become boring when you have to play 3-4 missions just to make it through a day. It maks your agents perfect in about a week, and the feeling that you "have" to go on missions makes it seem like work.



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#24 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 01:58 PM

Chryssalid: Mmm, you are looking sexy tonight...

Hmm, for the multiple transports, maby we could say that due to secrecy issues (trying to keep Xcom secret and all) you can only send one craft at a time? (More soldiers=More chance that someone will notice someone from the squad, like in rainbow 6 with the guy's pipe.)
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#25 NickJones

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 08:05 PM

Maybe that is the case with smaller missions. But I think a mission where aliens are "clensing" a city of humans, people would get mad if you only sent 6 guys.

#26 demich

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Posted 13 January 2004 - 11:23 PM

How about civies running away from you when you have lots of Bad Reputations Points? You gain Bad Reputaion Point when your soldier kills (accidentally ofcourse :devillaugh: ) civilians :) --edit-- Protecting and (eventaully) evacuating civilians will be much harder when they'll run away from you.

Edited by demich, 13 January 2004 - 11:26 PM.


#27 NickJones

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Posted 16 January 2004 - 11:10 PM

So whats the final word on multiable Skyranges/UFOs?

#28 Puasonen

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Posted 17 January 2004 - 03:33 AM

Maybe in version 100+ ^_^
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#29 fux0r666

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Posted 17 January 2004 - 03:40 AM

Version 1 will be a complete XCOM clone as far as gameplay goes. No added features, nothin'.

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#30 Redfield

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Posted 18 February 2004 - 02:17 AM

I like an idea of multiple crafts. Let the player choose how many of them he will send.
As combat penalty you can make map bigger(much bigger) with every additional craft no matter human or alien.

#31 DwightMcNeil

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Posted 11 May 2004 - 09:57 PM

Easy - bigger maps + more aliens = more potential for needing more ships.

Dipstick has it right guys. I have heard a few things in regards to realism since I signed on with you guys. Now I am not veteran but I have spilled green blood in the same mud. That being said I think city battles are to small. They should take a few game days to win and alot more then 28 troopers. Day fades into night you setup in a building and pass out food and fresh ammo.


In the short but not half bad X-com novel it has many craft applying to a city attack. Tha would be cool to play online. Something like 8 skyrangers one for each player. Time the turns so everyone submitts quickly, and if someone goes offline the soldiers fight on auto....a rough idea and at best and nothing we will see for awhile..



We have fought Squad combat.......how about platoons and door gunners?

#32 Tuoppi

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Posted 12 May 2004 - 08:45 AM

I donīt see the problem with "battles getting too easy", as it doesn't really matter if you want to squash that battleship with 50 troopers and 5 tanks. You will win the battle fairly easily, but in the long term you will lose the game because this kind of operation is too costly. Losses are likely to be greater and all those thingies cost a lot to just have around. (Someone calculate monthly cost of having 5 skyrangers, salaries, facilities and weaponry).

I think that there should be some large battles which are sure to result in significant casualties unless squad is VERY powerful (base missions). You can take out that base, but is it worth all the blood it will cost?

Normal mission type would be the standard 1 craft vs 1 UFO but sometimes large craft has escorts landed at same location, or as Combat Air Patrol circling above. When CAP gets shot down they would try to crash near "mothership" for cover/assistance.

There would this option needed although it would be possible to have 50 men
killing one grey from small scout. (Provided you had the money&time to make it possible)

If a ship with escorts are shot down, they are downed one by one. It shouldn't be too hard to make separate crash sites at right intervals. (Very close each other normally, that is what the selection window is for.) Ground assaults are separate missions in such case.

Am i making any sense? :huh: Or has the jury already decided? :whatwhat:

#33 Blehm 98

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Posted 15 May 2004 - 12:55 PM

I have something like this in the craft and hwp section. But also, maybe the smaller craft would slow you down so the larger one can escape. It would get out of there, but the smaller ones keep you behind
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#34 scorps04

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Posted 16 June 2004 - 09:36 PM

Ok, here's an idea for mutli-UFO large-squad missions:

In X-COM 1, there were those alien base-supply missions, usually with one Battleship, two Supply Ships and one Large Scout. What happened to me a lot especially in the beginning was that all my Interceptors were either damaged or destroyed or ran out of ammo or fuel taking a shot at the Battlesip, so that more that one UFO landed at an alien base.
My Skyranger, of course, could only land at one landing site and had to return after the mission even with almost full fuel tanks.

Now, If you would be able to engage all four ships in one Battlescape mission, and maybe even attack the base, there would be a very good reason to bring more that 14 troops along. You could coordinate your transport aircraft to land around the UFOs and let your soldiers work their way to the center of the landing site and up to the entrance of the alien base.
You still would have the pain to move your 50 units around for one mission, but that may be better than sending three Skyrangers to one UFO each and fight three Battlescape missions instead.

Nevertheless there is a general, programming-related problem to multi-transporter missions: If the transport aircraft involved in one Battlescape come from different bases, who gets to take home the corpses and artifacts?


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#35 dipstick

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 01:23 PM

Whoever you designate the primary aircraft at the beginning :D
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#36 Mustang

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 01:25 PM

Here is something that happened to me in version 1.00 in X-com 1:
I had two bases and in between them was a terror site that was going to dissapear soon. So I sent both there at the same time and they both reachd the site at them same time and the message popped up saying Skyranger 1 land at terror site then I clicked "ok" then it immediatatly came up with another message the same but with skyranger 2. I actually had both skyrangers in that mission, they were 4 spaces next to each other.

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#37 dipstick

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 01:29 PM

:D I bet that helped then. What do you mean, that the skyranger was twice as large?
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#38 Puasonen

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 01:40 PM

Either you were incredibly lucky or you were playing at 4 a clock in the morning and you don'r know what you saw :D
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#39 scorps04

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Posted 17 June 2004 - 05:01 PM

Well, I nerver saw an X-Com 1 version other than 1.2, 1.3 or 1.4, but in the versions I've played, neither crashsites or terror sites would disappear if they were targeted by a Skyranger or even an Interceptor. If you did nothing about them though, they would vanish after a day or so. I always sent an Interceptor to a crash or terror site to keep them on the map if my Skyranger had to be refuelled... :naughty:
What happened to you is that maybe both Skyrangers arrived there in the same 5 sec interval used in Geoscape timing.

Where did you get that version 1.0 anyway?

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#40 j'ordos

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 01:31 AM

That was the first version to come out, available on diskettes. He probably has bought it oh so many years ago :) We had that one as well, I distinctly remember the screwed up alien bases :rolleyes:
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#41 Puasonen

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Posted 18 June 2004 - 06:12 AM

It's just that even if it would be possible to get 2 skyrangers to the same mission at the exactly same time, it would probably just tilt the game because of an error. Having 2 skyrangers in one mission is impossible because the game doesn't just put them there side by side if it's not programmed to do that. Except if they were planning to add that kind of possibility there but decided to lose the idea and some code was left there by accident which I doubt.

Sorry but you said that I don't have to believe you :rolleyes:
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#42 Mustang

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Posted 21 June 2004 - 01:40 PM

Did I say anything about the second skyranger having any soldiers in it?:P
I'll see if I can find the saved game

Edited by Mustang, 21 June 2004 - 01:41 PM.