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#101 NKF

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 12:43 PM

I wouldn't compare amount of ammo or unit parameters of Starcraft and X-Com - Starcraft isn't a realistic game and doesn't show how things really look in that world.


Doesn't matter - I'm poking fun at the silly mechanics. ;)


Ha - imagine you boot up Donkey Kong, only to find you've got a full late-game XCOM squad to take care of the beast. A couple stun grenades and a call to the zoo and we'd be off for an early lunch.


Come to think of it, something similar's been done. There's a skit in the first season of Robot Chicken where a game of Donkey Kong starts up, but part way through the game a bunch of Halo Spartans show up and steal the show.

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#102 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 17 October 2007 - 03:22 PM

If Ammo is unlimited in this scenario, then I suppose Im going to have alot of fun with rapid fire Incendiary autocannon ammo :D
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#103 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 01:29 PM

Even in just Apocalypse alone theres a vast variety of vehicles you could use, and alot of them have unlimited ammo such as the plasma defense which can shoot extremly fast at about 200 metre's if I remember correctly.
Good Bye Ultralisks.


sorry bud, but in SC Ultralisk can easily resist the plasma shots from siege tans...

P.D. It was a good attempt

The real trick is the Apc's and the AIR SUPPORT which you claimed to not exist.
If we are using the starcraft physics and world for our Xcom agents, its pretty clear that you need to convert our vehicles to work in the same manner as the starcraft do.


Yep, but Devourers and scourges can be quite... ejem... annoying...

#104 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 03:01 PM

Even in just Apocalypse alone theres a vast variety of vehicles you could use, and alot of them have unlimited ammo such as the plasma defense which can shoot extremly fast at about 200 metre's if I remember correctly.
Good Bye Ultralisks.


sorry bud, but in SC Ultralisk can easily resist the plasma shots from siege tans...

P.D. It was a good attempt

The real trick is the Apc's and the AIR SUPPORT which you claimed to not exist.
If we are using the starcraft physics and world for our Xcom agents, its pretty clear that you need to convert our vehicles to work in the same manner as the starcraft do.


Yep, but Devourers and scourges can be quite... ejem... annoying...


Scourges arent all that impressive when you consider that Ufo's and Xcom craft both have stackable shields.

Devourers.. let me think.. Wait, those are the completely useless scorpian things right? O:
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#105 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 08:11 PM

Buddy... don`t understimate scourges...

Or just see the video when only two of them got to shoot down Dukes BC. Moreover, shields don`t las forever, and we have millions of scourges to attack once and again... XD

And about devourers... just think on the acid corroding the armor of your ships (as well as the acid of the celatid can easily melt the allien alloys of a Power Suit).

#106 NKF

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 08:41 PM

Same goes for poppers. A stack of shields is only going to hold out for so long, but if they appear continuously in packs, as they most often do, the shields don't stand a chance unless if you don't do something about them before its too late.

Devourers - hate fighting against them. Easy enough to kill off, they are a support unit after all. However the area effect acid clouds they can create are brutal. Also didn't the clouds increase the defence of Zergs in them?

Their vehicle insta-kill attack that hatches two pathetic little thingies are also a much hated attack - luckily it's slow and takes time to recharge. The free decoys in the bargain are just icing on the cake. Sort of like their version of the Chryssalid attack - only they can't continue to replicate.

Speaking of chryssalids, wonder what effect they'd have on a swarm of zerglings? Even though the new chryssalids will only start at base stat values, the fact that they keep replicating might just put them at even odds with the Zerg's quick reproduction - by taking the enemy's resources (bodies) to make their own.

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Edited by NKF, 20 October 2007 - 08:42 PM.

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#107 Zombie

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 06:24 PM

Speaking of chryssalids, wonder what effect they'd have on a swarm of zerglings? Even though the new chryssalids will only start at base stat values, the fact that they keep replicating might just put them at even odds with the Zerg's quick reproduction - by taking the enemy's resources (bodies) to make their own.

The biology of the zerg host probably wouldn't allow a Chryssalid to convert it. Even if it could, the result would be a zerg-zombie which is hardly any kind of threat. And in order to create a new Chryssalid, you would have to temp the other faction to target the zombies. I'd suspect the Zerg's ability to auto-replicate thousands of enemies in a short period would overwhelm the Chryssalid and bring it to it's knees fast. :)

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#108 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 08:50 PM

Moreover, as i said... Zerg Queens can use their spawn brooding ability to give the chryssalids a spoon of their own soup. XD

#109 NinthRank

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 10:03 PM

Speaking of chryssalids, wonder what effect they'd have on a swarm of zerglings? Even though the new chryssalids will only start at base stat values, the fact that they keep replicating might just put them at even odds with the Zerg's quick reproduction - by taking the enemy's resources (bodies) to make their own.

The biology of the zerg host probably wouldn't allow a Chryssalid to convert it. Even if it could, the result would be a zerg-zombie which is hardly any kind of threat. And in order to create a new Chryssalid, you would have to temp the other faction to target the zombies. I'd suspect the Zerg's ability to auto-replicate thousands of enemies in a short period would overwhelm the Chryssalid and bring it to it's knees fast. :)

- Zombie

Why would the Zerg's biology be more different from the Chryssalids' than the humans' is? Or is it just that they're not humanoid? Can we suit up the Chryssalids in Flying Suits? That would solve the Broodling problem. Maybe? Nah, didn't think so.

About Scourges, the otherwise useless Disruptor Multi-Bombs might cause (or solve, depending on your viewpoint) some problems.

As for Devourers, they're from StarCraft and Celatids are from X-COM. I think, according to my favorite game-translation method of "How fast can it kill a civilian?", the Celatid's acid spit is way, way more powerful than a Devourer's.

About vehicle combat in general, X-COM (1) is on a much larger scale than StarCraft. An alien Battleship would be like a Terran Battlecruiser firing its Yamato Gun (i.e., destroying Interceptors/Wraiths) once per second! Its weapon range is 65 km, and that's definitely longer than a Yamato Gun. Nothing can dent it short of a Blaster Bomb, which somebody a while back equated to an Arclite Shock Cannon. That gives it a base armor of 70. Of course, this cannot be consistent, because a cannon (maybe like the Goliath's autocannon?) can take it down if you shoot it enough (and don't get shot!). Anyway, I guess the point is that vehicle combat will not translate easily no matter how many stats and cut scenes there are. (It doesn't help that there aren't any cutscenes in X-COM.)

Now (on a less serious note) for Ultralisks. Mind Control them with Ethereals (or Sectoids or whatever). Do it one corner at a time (they're large units, right? :P I mean how they fill up transports? LOL). They have no ranged attack, so they can't kill themselves, but if each corner is MC'ed individually (how do you do this in realtime?) They should be able to move and attack four times as fast, right? Right? ROFL Pwnage.

#110 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 02:04 PM

There is too a cut scene in xcom!
The movie from Apoc. :P
I heart that movie. srsly <3
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#111 gufu

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 03:05 PM

Just nuke the zerg... easy and simple... gah!
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#112 NinthRank

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 04:17 PM

Hmm, yeah... isn't there some sort of planetkiller in X-COM: Interceptor? A Nova Bomb or something?

#113 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:17 PM

Why would the Zerg's biology be more different from the Chryssalids' than the humans' is? Or is it just that they're not humanoid? Can we suit up the Chryssalids in Flying Suits? That would solve the Broodling problem. Maybe? Nah, didn't think so.


sorry bud... in SC, broodings can penetrate the power suits of marines, firebats, and even the armor of dragoons.

As for Devourers, they're from StarCraft and Celatids are from X-COM. I think, according to my favorite game-translation method of "How fast can it kill a civilian?", the Celatid's acid spit is way, way more powerful than a Devourer's.


Ehhh buddy... in SC, Devourers CAN ONLY attack air units. Moreover, don`t consider that in SC each marine is a single marine... by considering them as a unit, that could explain why can they resist a BC Beam (and also, by considering the BC as a single entity).

Otherwise, it`s completely unreal.

About vehicle combat in general, X-COM (1) is on a much larger scale than StarCraft.


look the opening video at SC BroodWar and only them come back and tell me if the Battleship is bigger than the BC. Moreover, unfortunatelly we don`t have any reliable info to translate damages from one game (pretty unreal SC is) to the other (our XCOM).

Furthermore, those Fusion missiles can not make much more damage (230 vs 100) than a conventional missile (avalanche). So, what can guarantee it may punch so easily through the main hull of a BC? (Scouts antimatter missiles delay quite a bit and if we have lotsa BCs in Hold Position... well, scouts can still take them down but not without severe losses).

Oh... and one more thing. Terran wraiths are invisible... and what you can not see, you can not kill (and therefore, can easily rip you appart... specially considering that even with enough machine gun ammunation an allien BS can be shoot down).

#114 NinthRank

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Posted 22 October 2007 - 11:20 PM

Why would the Zerg's biology be more different from the Chryssalids' than the humans' is? Or is it just that they're not humanoid? Can we suit up the Chryssalids in Flying Suits? That would solve the Broodling problem. Maybe? Nah, didn't think so.


sorry bud... in SC, broodings can penetrate the power suits of marines, firebats, and even the armor of dragoons.

Actually, I just wanted them to fly (to escape Broodling-spawns). All races in StarCraft lack flying "basic" units. Unfortunately, a Chryssalid would probably need a very specially designed Flying Suit (but it's possible) in order to implant anyone, and it would probably lose its speed (which I currently estimate as close to that of a Zergling).

As for Devourers, they're from StarCraft and Celatids are from X-COM. I think, according to my favorite game-translation method of "How fast can it kill a civilian?", the Celatid's acid spit is way, way more powerful than a Devourer's.


Ehhh buddy... in SC, Devourers CAN ONLY attack air units. Moreover, don`t consider that in SC each marine is a single marine... by considering them as a unit, that could explain why can they resist a BC Beam (and also, by considering the BC as a single entity).
Otherwise, it`s completely unreal.

Oh... :unsure: well... OK then. I guess that screws up my entire conception of StarCraft. :) I think my civilian-equating method might still be valid, though. It might just mean that one civilian in X-COM counts as a whole "squad" of them in StarCraft, possibly.

About vehicle combat in general, X-COM (1) is on a much larger scale than StarCraft.


look the opening video at SC BroodWar and only them come back and tell me if the Battleship is bigger than the BC. Moreover, unfortunatelly we don`t have any reliable info to translate damages from one game (pretty unreal SC is) to the other (our XCOM).

Again, I was taking the StarCraft representation kinda literally, e.g., an Alien Battleship versus a Power-Suited guy is much more than a Terran Battlecruiser versus a Marine. I mean, the Battleship can fly thousands of miles per hour through the atmosphere and blow stuff up beyond visual range.

Furthermore, those Fusion missiles can not make much more damage (230 vs 100) than a conventional missile (avalanche). So, what can guarantee it may punch so easily through the main hull of a BC? (Scouts antimatter missiles delay quite a bit and if we have lotsa BCs in Hold Position... well, scouts can still take them down but not without severe losses).

Fusion missiles? I don't remember mentioning those... but, yeah, beyond visual range. :)

Oh... and one more thing. Terran wraiths are invisible... and what you can not see, you can not kill (and therefore, can easily rip you appart... specially considering that even with enough machine gun ammunation an allien BS can be shoot down).

I was just trying to compare its durability to that of the Interceptor to get an estimate of a Battleship's weapon strength. That's a good point about invisibility, though. I wonder how good at detecting the Aliens are. They might be able to detect the pilot's psi-print.

Also, it seems that the Nova Bomb is for killing stars, not planets. That might be a bit too much collateral damage. Oh well. :)

#115 NKF

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 12:52 AM

Speaking of size, I've always thought that the UFO Battleship was not very big at all. At least, compared to an Apocalypse Alternate Dimension UFO (medium and upward), the UFO Battleship is tiny. If anything, it would probably be the size of Science Vessel, or to be ultra-optimistic, a Terran HQ. Smaller in size than a BC for sure, but more manouverable and better air-to-air firepower against Wraiths.

The Apocalypse Mothership/Battleship however would probably a decent match for a BC or Protoss Carrier in size. Depending on the armament, an Apocalypse Battleship would be quite a good match for either vessel. Controlled launches of the Stassis missile (or a cloaked Escort, which comes standard issue with one) would be a massive helper against either vessel, and multibombs (Or an escort of Bombers) would neutralise the Carrier's fighters easily. Starcraft is just a computerised game of Rochembeau (Rock/Paper/Scissors) - every unit has its strengths against particular units and weaknesses against others. It really ends up depending on the how they are utilised. Numbers also helps - sometimes!

By the way, re cloaking: X-Com Apocalypse does have cloaking devices. For air and ground units. The air version are pants on account of requiring too much shield space and only function to make missiles harder to lock on (it's just a strong jammer - and makes your ship partially transparent but not quite invisible). The ground version is better and keeps you completely invisible to enemy units at a range (until you get hit by a stray shot - in which case you are visible for all to see for a short period of time). Mixing in smoke grenades helps too - but that tends to be a bit of a giveaway that you're nearby. Easily countered by rushing your Zerglings all over the place to overrun any cloaked platoons.

I don't see the zombification of zergs by chryssalids to be too much of a problem in stopping them. They won't stay zombies for long if the Zergs attack everything they come across. Firebats however will render Chryssalid Zombies harmless as they'll be able to render their killing blows with their flamers.

I completely forgot about the Overspud - anyone have any idea how that would fare against the Zergs? It's incredibly stupid in that if left to its own devices it will walk about in a completely random manner and plough through anything in its way. Even buildings owned by allies, so I don't see it being all that useful except in a hit and run insertion into the middle of the enemy base to cause a diversion. Would easily rip through any structure it walks across though.

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Edited by NKF, 23 October 2007 - 12:56 AM.

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#116 NinthRank

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 07:34 AM

Perhaps UFO's in Apocalypse are bigger physically, but the values for speed and weapon range are definitely much greater in X-COM:EU.

By the way, re cloaking: X-Com Apocalypse does have cloaking devices. For air and ground units. The air version are pants on account of requiring too much shield space and only function to make missiles harder to lock on (it's just a strong jammer - and makes your ship partially transparent but not quite invisible). The ground version is better and keeps you completely invisible to enemy units at a range (until you get hit by a stray shot - in which case you are visible for all to see for a short period of time). Mixing in smoke grenades helps too - but that tends to be a bit of a giveaway that you're nearby. Easily countered by rushing your Zerglings all over the place to overrun any cloaked platoons.

Also taking into account the fact that the Zerg have many detectors around in the form of Overlords, cloaking wouldn't get you very far. I'd much rather have another shield or Devastator Cannon.

I don't see the zombification of zergs by chryssalids to be too much of a problem in stopping them. They won't stay zombies for long if the Zergs attack everything they come across. Firebats however will render Chryssalid Zombies harmless as they'll be able to render their killing blows with their flamers.

Well, Zombies do turn into Chryssalids when they die (against the Zerg, not Firebats).

I completely forgot about the Overspud - anyone have any idea how that would fare against the Zergs? It's incredibly stupid in that if left to its own devices it will walk about in a completely random manner and plough through anything in its way. Even buildings owned by allies, so I don't see it being all that useful except in a hit and run insertion into the middle of the enemy base to cause a diversion. Would easily rip through any structure it walks across though.

Even dropped in the middle of a base, it would be a random chance that in causes damage. Maybe if you dropped it right into the Zerg's resource line. It would certainly be very distracting, though. A perfect terror weapon. It would be worth it to see a Zerg opponent scrambling every single unit to kill the Overspawn before it wanders into the Hive. Speaking of which, there are several melee units in StarCraft; can an Overspawn crush them? Zerglings, maybe. Ultralisks are probably just as big as the 'spud.

#117 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 12:13 PM

Ejem... ninthrank... go and read Liberty`s Crussade, and there you will find that the BC is able to fly at 250,000 km/h cruisse speed and that`s much more that the wimpies 5000 mph of the alien BS...

Next... Yep BVR... but still not powerful to destroy a BC in enough time (and considering that both aircraft are attacking themselves and considering that the speed of the BC is 25 times the one of the BS, it wouldn`t be so hard for the BC to catch the BS and Kaboom!!!).

Even dropped in the middle of a base, it would be a random chance that in causes damage. Maybe if you dropped it right into the Zerg's resource line. It would certainly be very distracting, though. A perfect terror weapon. It would be worth it to see a Zerg opponent scrambling every single unit to kill the Overspawn before it wanders into the Hive. Speaking of which, there are several melee units in StarCraft; can an Overspawn crush them? Zerglings, maybe. Ultralisks are probably just as big as the 'spud.


Yep, but as always... some people tend to forget that cool Zerg Bases have lotsa Lurkers inside... XD

I was just trying to compare its durability to that of the Interceptor to get an estimate of a Battleship's weapon strength. That's a good point about invisibility, though. I wonder how good at detecting the Aliens are. They might be able to detect the pilot's psi-print.


Yep, but about alien detecting of psi prints... remember that in order to do so, i mean to detect an underground XCOM base (with lotsa people and A LOT of psi prints inside), they take more than one hour to do so (in the best of cases). And i`m really sorry about this, but by that time terran wraiths should have already ripped most of BS into pieces (using lasers, geminy missiles or even primitive cannonfire... whatever).

Actually, I just wanted them to fly (to escape Broodling-spawns). All races in StarCraft lack flying "basic" units. Unfortunately, a Chryssalid would probably need a very specially designed Flying Suit (but it's possible) in order to implant anyone, and it would probably lose its speed (which I currently estimate as close to that of a Zergling).


yep, where devourers acid awaits them. (Or mutalisk if you prefer so).

#118 gufu

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 03:40 PM

So the wild west one isn't attracting any attention, I wonder what would happen if the X-Com universe were to be set against Starcraft's friendly rival, the entire Command and Conquer series? Or Super Mario? Tetris? The sillier, the more entertaining the explanations. :D

Er, never mind.


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#119 NinthRank

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 04:05 PM

Ejem... ninthrank... go and read Liberty`s Crussade, and there you will find that the BC is able to fly at 250,000 km/h cruisse speed and that`s much more that the wimpies 5000 mph of the alien BS...

Is that through an atmosphere or in space? I don't happen to have any of the novels, so I can't really comment on that. Just to throw something out there, though (and take X-COM's corner-cutting quite literally), the travel time for an Avenger to go to Mars is practically nil, so that could indicate that the speed of a Battleship through space is 13c, although I have no idea what happened to the time dilation.

In general, specifying a maximum speed through space is misleading. The theoretical maximum speed for any object is the speed of light. Practically speaking, it just depends on how long you want to keep accelerating it.

Next... Yep BVR... but still not powerful to destroy a BC in enough time (and considering that both aircraft are attacking themselves and considering that the speed of the BC is 25 times the one of the BS, it wouldn`t be so hard for the BC to catch the BS and Kaboom!!!).

Kaboom? I take it that something utterly fantastic happens at that time? :) After getting into range, the Battlecruiser has yet to start firing. Do the novels have other numerical data for the game? That could be helpful, if not altogether consistent.

Even dropped in the middle of a base, it would be a random chance that in causes damage. Maybe if you dropped it right into the Zerg's resource line. It would certainly be very distracting, though. A perfect terror weapon. It would be worth it to see a Zerg opponent scrambling every single unit to kill the Overspawn before it wanders into the Hive. Speaking of which, there are several melee units in StarCraft; can an Overspawn crush them? Zerglings, maybe. Ultralisks are probably just as big as the 'spud.


Yep, but as always... some people tend to forget that cool Zerg Bases have lotsa Lurkers inside... XD

Well, the Overspawn does take a bit of pounding to destroy. Even so, I think that the psychological factor would be the most useful.

I was just trying to compare its durability to that of the Interceptor to get an estimate of a Battleship's weapon strength. That's a good point about invisibility, though. I wonder how good at detecting the Aliens are. They might be able to detect the pilot's psi-print.


Yep, but about alien detecting of psi prints... remember that in order to do so, i mean to detect an underground XCOM base (with lotsa people and A LOT of psi prints inside), they take more than one hour to do so (in the best of cases). And i`m really sorry about this, but by that time terran wraiths should have already ripped most of BS into pieces (using lasers, geminy missiles or even primitive cannonfire... whatever).

Psi is affected by distance, and while two walls, a pile of boxes, and a fence (basically anything on the Battlescape) do not noticeably block psi, several meters of rock and steel might, especially with no amplifier. Also, if we're going by realistic equivalents, not in-game mechanics, a Wraith reveals itself horribly and completely by launching a missile or firing a gun. If we do go by in-game mechanics, any Ethereal could (attempt to) MC a Wraith pilot from at least 1.5x the Wraith's weapon range. From the novels, what are the speed and range of a Wraith? I suppose it probably wants to ambush a Battleship, not chase it?

Actually, I just wanted them to fly (to escape Broodling-spawns). All races in StarCraft lack flying "basic" units. Unfortunately, a Chryssalid would probably need a very specially designed Flying Suit (but it's possible) in order to implant anyone, and it would probably lose its speed (which I currently estimate as close to that of a Zergling).


yep, where devourers acid awaits them. (Or mutalisk if you prefer so).

Of course I know that the Zerg do have anti-air-capable units. Strategically, however, it would be very advantageous for a unit to be able to pop into the air whenever required.

#120 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 05:05 PM

Psi is affected by distance


If that were to be true, there should be less posibilities of MC one of my soldiers at the other edge of the map... but... buaaa those freaking aliens!!! I hate them!!! :( (don`t you hate when that occurs?).

Moreover, psi does not affect aircrafts (otherwise ethereals small scouts would be MC`ing the pilot of the interceptor when he aproaches with his cannons).

Next... it`s not a Wraith... it`s thousands and thousands per BS (look at the films or at least take a glace to Mensk`s fleet). So it doesn`t mean if they shoot and get uncovered. The first (or should i say the first hundreds) of missiles can easily take down a BS. Finally, as long as i remember we are talking about zergs vs allien so lets get on with it ;)

Well, the Overspawn does take a bit of pounding to destroy. Even so, I think that the psychological factor would be the most useful.


First, for Zergs fear does not exist. They are like living bots MC`ed by cerebrates. Next It`s one Overspawn against thousands of lurkers (and maybe the acid of one or two defilers).

#121 NinthRank

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 06:00 PM

Check this out. Therefore, the absolute maximum range of the strongest human with a standard Psi-Amp is 245 meters. Even the lowly Cannon has a range of 10,000 meters. That's why I was wondering about the official canon data for the Wraith: I'd rather know at what range space battles take place in StarCraft.

Unfortunately, in order to compare Aliens to Zerg, we'd need to find some known relationship between the two games. For infantry combat, I proposed using the civilians. For air and space combat....

And you're right, the Zerg don't know fear. I guess the Cerebrates might freak out for a second... or they might just think that it's a second cousin of theirs. Seriously, that thing looks way too goofy for its role.

#122 NKF

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 10:52 PM

I would be very wary of trying to compare games and Novels-Based-On-Games or Games-Based-On-Novels. Few of them are faithful to the source, but attempt to tell a story in the same setting or at least borrow ideas from the source material. Look at book/game deals like Dune, Doom, Krondor or even X-Com. The game and the stories are like chalk and cheese - but are both entertaining to varying degrees. It's easier to treat them as separate works that share concepts.

But about the speeds, those large numbers would probably be for warping between systems. Actual battle speed in space or in an atmosphere would be much slower. It would be silly to be warping about - completely out of control - at insane speeds, unless executing a withdrawal. You never know if you might end up warping into the middle of a star if you're not careful.

Speaking of warp speed travel - it's a concept that always bothers me. You're travelling at a really great velocity in one direction - and never hit anything. I know space is large and the odds of hitting something are slim - but rocks, space debris, other ships, heck planets even.
Sci fi makes and breaks rules so much that you just can't keep up sometimes. ;)

---

Psi - the UFO aliens used Psi as an information network, and I assume they use it to scan for X-Com's underground bases as well. That's why you end up building a mind shield to hide you from these scans. Mind control and panic attacks are close proximity attacks. Do note that a ground battle in UFO is really very small if you step back and take it all in. Starcraft maps are huge in comparison, so the scope of psionics for combat would be much more shorter ranged.

Now if talk about Interceptor's Psi Cannon... I really cannot offer any comment on that.

---

Starcraft's scale - a lot of us are of the belief that a single unit is really a platoon of units. I like to think that too - for exterior battles. The interior battles inside terran installations work better when you think of each unit as a single unit.

But what about exterior battles with hero units like Raynor (Vulture), a Hunter Killer or Duran? Would they also be considered a platoon led by the hero or just the hero alone?

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#123 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 09:30 AM

Well... lets consider them as single Heroes... like in warIII (Yep, i know it?s not so real but it?s cool to have the idea in mind of a powerful and brave hero... moreover, they are heroes for something don?t you think so? XD)

Edited by Adun_Toridas, 24 October 2007 - 09:52 AM.


#124 gufu

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 01:07 PM

I say overspawns just have to walk around... I bet they lower the ground levels (squash the lurkers!)
Beside - lurkers spikes are too small for it!
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#125 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 02:15 PM

If an overspawn was to die in a zerg base, it would simply fall over and kill everything xD!

All we really need to do, is build a giant 'spudapult. :D
I dont think the zerg would stand a chance with that happening, Airborne terror weapons.. my lord.. WHAT HAVE WE DONE?>!???!
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#126 NinthRank

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 09:09 PM

If you want to hear my rant on why it is bad to interpret StarCraft gameplay too loosely, read the box. If not, just skip to the argument part.

Games like StarCraft are designed first to be balanced, and then to be consistent with a fictional universe. Take Halo: Combat Evolved as an example. The Assault Rifle fires full-sized 7.62x51mm NATO rounds (uh-huh, in the Twenty-Fifth Century?) fully automatically (yeah right), but it is only effective at short ranges (what??). Whatever. The designers said "Hey, let's make a full-auto SMG-type weapon," not, "Hey, let's make a .30 caliber assault rifle." Likewise, in StarCraft, the game designers said, "Let's make three sides, each with balanced units," not, "Let's make a game based on this fictional universe (which, by the way, doesn't exist yet because the game's not done)." The game is based on a (usually basic) storyline, but it defines the universe. The same is true of X-COM: UFO Defense. It does not really matter that an under-funded organization with "state-of-the-art" second-rate weapons and inexperienced personnel can defeat an Alien force with superior technology and apparently unlimited resources, because that is how the game is balanced.

The game should be considered as the first point of reference for its universe. The StarCraft game is set within the storyline, and it defines its own universe. The novels are based on that universe, which is itself secondary to the gameplay; therefore, if we undercut the gameplay by calling it an inaccurate representation of the universe, we undercut the rest of the universe even more because it is secondary to the gameplay. For example, let us say that a Marine is representative of a whole platoon; however, the unit was reduced to a single man just to make the game playable. Could we not likewise say that any of the information in the books (I do not own any; take the figures on a Terran Battlecruiser's cruising speed for an example) is merely there in order to make the novel readable? Perhaps the entire backstory is just a "fictional" representation of the "real" StarCraft world just to make it plausible that men in space suits would shoot animals. With no foundation, the entire universe collapses.

Finally, I think that it is completely unnecessary to take liberties with the gameplay representation. For example, looking in the manual, I noticed the description of the Terran Marine: a powersuit and an assault rifle firing 8mm slugs at 5,600+ fps. Given that the powersuit can absorb more recoil than a human could, the slugs must be light, but not too light. Even so, at such a high speed, the slugs would lose energy and stability quickly. (I'm not up to doing the numbers on this; could somebody give numerical estimates?) This is consistent with the fact that a Marine can punch through some armor at short range but cannot engage enemies at long range. In close quarters, you would hardly need a squad of these guys to do some damage.

(Well I enjoyed writing it anyway. I hope y'all had fun reading it! :D )

I have to disagree strongly with the idea that a StarCraft unit is actually representative of an entire squad. If it were so, then I believe that it could be modeled somewhat like the following:
- One Marine (or other small unit) contains several personnel.
- One Battlecruiser (or other large unit) contains one person/vehicle.
- It seems very unlikely that a 99% Marine (for example) represents twelve infantrymen all on the verge of death, so losing health must mean losing a few soldiers (for small units).
- Gaining health, therefore, means gaining back lost soldiers (for small units).

However, I do not see any evidence that this is what the designers intended. In fact, it seems that nothing was further from their minds:
- Obviously, all sprites show a single character/vehicle in the game.
- Portraits increase units' "individuality."
- Units are given individual ranks, e.g., Marines are privates, not squad leaders.
- Terrain seems to favor a single-man-unit approach. "Sergeant, take your men up that staircase" and "I want Charlie Company taking cover behind... that tree" seem less realistic. (Or does a tree represent a forest now?)
- I am having some trouble finding a way to view all of the cutscenes easily, but from what I remember, they show no indication of squad combat. On the contrary, Marines seem to use very Hollywood-style one-man-army tactics. The only explanation that I can think of is that cutscenes depict only Marine "units" whose health is in the red.
- Hero units are very powerful. If one is comparing Raynor to a whole "wing" of Vultures, then the best explanation is that heroes command a whole squad of elites.
- Ghosts probably work alone (squad = 1 man), but that means that a single Ghost is far more powerful than a single Marine out of a Marine unit.
- What about repairing? For small units, it requires that the unit actually gain more personnel. A squad of SCV's repairing a single Battleship makes sense. If a Vulture is 50% damaged, then perhaps a Vulture unit represents two bikes, and each is damaged. The damage can be repaired instead of buying a whole new bike, which makes sense. Protoss cannot repair at all, which is fine. A 90% damaged Zergling "squad" might reproduce sexually or asexually during the course of a battle, until it again consists of twenty(?) Zerglings. That is plausible. Enter the Medic. Medics most certainly do not "make" more Marines. (Or is that why they're women?) At least, I sure hope not. The length of a typical battle makes it impossible anyway. Perhaps Medics represent reinforcements? From the "invisible" supply lines from the Supply Depots? Incapable of/prohibited from firing a weapon until joined with an official military unit? If healing means reinforcements, then Marines, not Medics, should "heal" Marines.

Edited by NinthRank, 24 October 2007 - 09:10 PM.


#127 Sorrow

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 05:04 AM

It still doesn't make sense as a representation of "reality". Anyone who played a real tactical game knows that killing half of a squad reduces its firepower by half and probably the remaining squad members are pinned down.

#128 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 01:28 PM

I couldnt agree more Against units representing multiples.

Once of the first games (to my knowledge) to do what this mad man was saying, would be.. oh god whats it called >>
myth and magic, heroes and something?
Its along those lines. xP

Comparing That game into the idea of Starcraft units working like this.. is rediculous.
100 Goblins which throw maces are not as able to destroy as much as 50 goblins throwing maces.

If Starcraft units indeed died off as they were damaged, then they would have less killing power, and In my oppinion, the marines suck enough as it is :P

Another good game which has an ability close to this, would be Battle for Middle Earth.
Uruk's are mainly in squads other than beserkers.
The men in the squad attack seperately, and Die seperatly, but their commands may NOT be put out seperatly.

Basically what Im saying is, The units look as what they are.
Its a video game.
Nothing needs to be realistic.





...So Back to that Wild West theme Nkf :P
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Eight Ball: For the love of God, would you stop jiggling me! How can I predict the future when I'm about to throw up?!

#129 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 08:17 PM

Oh but realistic games are Panzer General... try it, you?ll love it (i could finally conquer the US after 3 days of thinking)

#130 gufu

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 08:41 PM

A 90% damaged Zergling "squad" might reproduce sexually or asexually during the course of a battle, until it again consists of twenty(?) Zerglings. That is plausible. Enter the Medic. Medics most certainly do not "make" more Marines. (Or is that why they're women?) At least, I sure hope not. The length of a typical battle makes it impossible anyway. Perhaps Medics represent reinforcements? From the "invisible" supply lines from the Supply Depots? Incapable of/prohibited from firing a weapon until joined with an official military unit? If healing means reinforcements, then Marines, not Medics, should "heal" Marines.


Zerg squads cannot reproduce at all by themselfs - they are all genderless. Now the medic reproduction part can & will be used in future - but for now, What if marines don't die - but rather keep the criticly wounded with themselfs (Bet those suits can keep men alive for quiet some time).
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#131 Ruivo

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Posted 25 October 2007 - 09:02 PM

This one is kinda tricky i think, it is hard to make a decision.. Firstly because aliens weren't made to be playable in-game so they are kinda unbalanced when it comes to oposing forces. At first they are much more powerfull than anything the player has.. and after some time the balance of power changes and the aliens are easely disposable.

Although i'm not a zerg fan (only use terran marines, and... stim packs :P), i'm inclined to say that a race that: Underestimate their enemies, overestimate their habilities, allow themselves to be vulnerable to their own weapons (with the exception of the sectopod), allow their leaders to be susceptible to interrogation (and thus, revealing their main base), keep using the same old tactics while their enemies evolve and adapt (why didn't they started using some UFO that was able to fight off avengers?) leave advanced equipment in the battlefield for the enemy to recover and study, DON'T ever recover downed UFO's, and DON'T EVEN pick up their own weapons after beeing mind controled to drop them..

Well.. i would say that such a empire wouldn't stand a chance agains't ANY of the starcraft races.


Of course, i'm making asumptions based on what we see in the game.. and since they're not playable.. they were designed to be defeated :P
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#132 NKF

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 04:13 AM

Just as a counterpoint to that excellent argument (I was starting to think about that too - they need human intervention to improve their strategies - on their own they're idiots) - the Starcraft enemy AI isn't particularly brilliant either. They work if there's a script involved. On their own, they're very simple.

It works if the combat area has a script that dictates how it plays out and how the units are to beheave. Don't forget the the special perks and advantages available to the AI units thrown in by the map designers. Like temporarily invulnerability or having units spontainously appear for some reason or other or maybe have buildings blow up for no particular reason except as something that happens during a story event (where applicable). When done right, and when you're given limited resources, the AI can be very difficult to fight against until you spot the chink in their armour and exploit it.

On their own though (skirmish games), they basically go with the tank-rush swarm mentality. They strip mine the area they start in, try to expand randomly as quickly as they can and continue to strip mine with wild abandon. All the while throwing bucket loads of enemies at you as fast as they can. Granted this works until you wise up and throw tactics back at them! I think even on their smartest AI settings, they don't use some of their more useful toys at the same level as they can on a scripted map.

This is silly thinking, isn't it? :)

- NKF

Edited by NKF, 26 October 2007 - 04:16 AM.

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#133 NinthRank

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 07:21 AM

Why dwell on the limitations of the X-COM AI? The Aliens can also persuade governments to join them without even asking (it happens sometimes without an infiltration mission). So as they just sit there getting clobbered by the Zerg who have memorized all of the spawn points, paths, and terrain for each map...

"The Overmind has signed a secret pact with the Aliens and has withdrawn from the swarm." OMG

And, unfortunately, the Aliens have infinite resources. As the Zerg do not have Alien Containment or scientists, they cannot research Cydonia or Bust. :D

#134 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 09:50 AM

And, unfortunately, the Aliens have infinite resources. As the Zerg do not have Alien Containment or scientists, they cannot research Cydonia or Bust.


Again, sorry bud... but the only way to make the overmind to sign a pact is to have all you race enslaved to the Zerg XD

Moreover, they zergs can capture an asimilate their enemies (making them more and more powerful)... remember what happened to kerrigan. And finally... if they don`t know where the enemy is coming from, no problema. They just go and harrass all planets in sight until finding them XD.

Just imagine... zergs asimilating chryssalids, ethereals, mutons, or even the overspawn (after defeating, ejem smelting it with defilers acid) then, your worst nightmares becomes true. ahahahahahahaha

#135 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 01:29 PM

One word to that.
Brainsuckers. [:

Simply put, the overMIND is a giant brain ^^'..
Brainsuckers infuse their innards into the overmind and the overmind has magically been "Interrogated" to join the side of the aliens :)
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#136 NinthRank

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 05:07 PM

And, unfortunately, the Aliens have infinite resources. As the Zerg do not have Alien Containment or scientists, they cannot research Cydonia or Bust.


Again, sorry bud... but the only way to make the overmind to sign a pact is to have all you race enslaved to the Zerg XD

I'm sorry, that was in response Ruivo giving the poor Aliens a hard time just 'cuz they're so STOOPID. :D That is, if we give X-COM the thumbs-down because it's an older game, then we might as well consider the fact that there's always (a pretty significant) chance that someone signs a pact. :)

#137 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 08:23 PM

Brainsuckers


Yep, but only if they can pass through lurkers, spore colonies (air transported), devourers, queens with spawn broodings, sunken colonies, some hordes of hydralisks, swarms of zerlings, guardians, Ultralisk, and a long, long, long list XD

#138 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 26 October 2007 - 09:20 PM

They do have "Brainsucker pods"
:P

Even if they were to run, those things are sneaky and small.

Most Zerg would have a difficult time attacking these, and due to their large number, they could easily overrun them all. =D
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Eight Ball: For the love of God, would you stop jiggling me! How can I predict the future when I'm about to throw up?!

#139 gufu

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 11:22 AM

Mind controled korean with an brainsucker pod will have easy time entering zerg swarm (They DID create zerg rush, ya know). Beside - zerg are somewhat limited in the air - having 1 to 1000 of units in air to the ground.
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#140 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 12:32 PM

don?t try to use numbers against zergs... it?s a safe hint (cause they will really outnumber any enemy coming from whatever direction, and also have mass attacks as defiler?s acid).

What should be done instead, is to infiltrate some special units (i?d go for mutons) in a few amounts with some stunt gas. Then (if they are fast enough) they would be able to inject it on the overmind (as medics in Broodwar). So that ethereals could finally MC it.

P.D. Buds... i really got a solution for the poor aliens... at terran style!!! :P

#141 Sorrow

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 01:00 PM

X-Com 3 aliens - they would just vanish the Zerg planet.

#142 Ruivo

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 01:40 PM

We just can't decide based on the AI's.. as NFK said, the Zerg AI is stupid (it's predictable.. ergo, stupid.).

This discussion will go on forever then.. We need some way to give control of the aliens to the player then we'll be able to make a decision :D

And.. just quoting Jim Ross.. "No matter how muscular and thick boned you are. If you go against steel, steel wins.. Always"

Edited by Ruivo, 27 October 2007 - 01:41 PM.

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#143 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 05:44 PM

The aliens much more advanced technology allows them to develope more and more extreme weapons to kill the zerg, while the zerg will just use the same tactics, as they can not develope new technology-- they are fairly limited in their abilities.
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Eight Ball: For the love of God, would you stop jiggling me! How can I predict the future when I'm about to throw up?!

#144 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 08:04 PM

Ehhh wait there...

1.

X-Com 3 aliens - they would just vanish the Zerg planet.


Yep... if their starship to do so does not get infected by a queen or something like that (or get smashed by millions of scourges, mutas, devourers and so on).

2.

The aliens much more advanced technology allows them to develope more and more extreme weapons to kill the zerg, while the zerg will just use the same tactics, as they can not develope new technology-- they are fairly limited in their abilities.


Yep... and Zergs EVOLVE. And they do it pretty fast (Hydralisk from original SC, got the new evolution to Lurkers in BroodWar). Moreover, just by capturing one alien zergs may adquire the ability to produce that kind of creature (better and evolved).

An example... by capturing ethereals, zergs may multiply its psi power dozens of times on their new creatures. Just imagine, warriors that not only can fly but also can make your weapons fly off your hands, as well as MC further and further. So not only you got meaner, flying and much psi stronger zerg-ethereal enemies, but also millions of them in a matter of minutes (just to give an example).

There are no limits to evolution buds, but steel or allien alloys do have limits.

Edited by Adun_Toridas, 27 October 2007 - 08:07 PM.


#145 gufu

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 08:43 PM

Answer:Blow sh17 up before it get consumed by swarm.
AKA - the live grenade trick.
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#146 Ruivo

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 09:07 PM

not only you got meaner, flying and much psi stronger zerg-ethereal enemies, but also millions of them in a matter of minutes (just to give an example).


I belive that this is a little exagerated, hehe.. If the zerg were at least a little bit as powerfull as some statements i've seen in these discussions, the protoss wouldn't be the favorite option for the most experienced starcraft players :)

Powerfull units cost resources i say.. and to breed millions of superpowered-flying-psionic-capable-zerg-ethereal units in a matter of minutes.. is to have an ridiculously large ammount of stored biomatter.

Perhaps even when discussing science fiction we should try to stay inside the boundaries of reality eh!? :P

Edited by Ruivo, 27 October 2007 - 09:08 PM.

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#147 NRN_R_Sumo1

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 09:24 PM

Ever heard of "Organic Weaponary" ?
Many of the Alien weapons are indeed bio-enginered.
Not to mention all of the ships from X-Com3.
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#148 Ruivo

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 09:44 PM

Not saying organic technology is not possible, indeed creating UFO's out of giant mushrooms is quite interesting.. But millions of highly powerfull (and "smart", if psionic capable) creatures in a matter of minutes.. Well... resources to that must come from somewhere :D

Edited by Ruivo, 27 October 2007 - 09:47 PM.

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#149 gufu

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 09:52 PM

IMHO - if they can fly - why can't they spontaneusly combust?
Beside - what about suicide cyberdisk?
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#150 NinthRank

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 12:34 AM

About assimilating Aliens, the Aliens really have nothing (psionic) to offer the Zerg. Ethereals' psi powers are less than those of Terran Ghosts (reasoning: Ghosts are the cream of the crop as far as human psi goes, and that is much greater than an Ethereal*). To really use them, they need to hijack the two training facilities (psi and physical) from X-COM 3. Sure, the Zerg could also replicate those, but their entire war (bio-?)machine is geared towards making innately strong non-psi units.

About Zerg assimilating races in general, sure, maybe they developed Lurkers very quickly. So they turned out to be effective. They still have yet to assimilate either a Protoss or a significant number of humans. Infesting Terrrans retains much of the human biology and even the equipment -- probably where they get all those explosive compounds -- and Kerrigan was an enormous project (taking up much of the storyline), very volatile, and (I think, I'm not really up on my StarCraft lore), turned out to be a huge liability. Larvae cannot morph into Infested Terrans or... Kerrigans... Ghosts, or psychics, I guess. It seems that Zerg only have experience assimilating non-sentient species. Even dimwitted Mutons might prove tough, and Ethereals, well, say hello to the new leader of the Zerg swarm. ;) (Okay, maybe not. :) )

Now, as for assimilating the Micronoid-controled Aliens in Apocalypse (just hypothetically speaking), it could mean the ultimate Zerg weapon... or the most total suicide ever committed. Either the Overmind would control the Micronoids, or the Micronoids would control the swarm. Kind of a toss-up for which way that one goes. One thing I know for sure, though, is that unless the Zerg do replicate the Micronoids, then assimilating any Apoc Alien would be useless, as they would soon just die without their Micronoids.

Finally, why assume that there are more Zerg than Aliens? All we really know is that the Aliens can send an infinite number of ships to earth, and that even after having their super-brain nuked, the same bunch came back twice: once in TFTD, and once in Interceptor (which, by the way, I have not played). (And before you say "trillions" again, Adun Toridas, I'll just say "7.77 x 10^981 Ethereals Ethereal Battleships." ;) JK ) Also note that this means that the Aliens never run out of resources (and so, by extension, neither does X-COM... LOL ), but the Zerg will run out no matter what map they are on (in the game), or what planets they stripmine (in the mythology).

*Read my quote box for a tangent regarding Ethereals' psi powers in Apocalypse. (This should go somewhere else, but it is relevant here.)

About Ethereals versus humans, the comparison gets a little tricky when comparing to Apocalypse. In Apoc, humans are puny, while half-human, half-Sectoids are strong. Ethereals are definitely stronger than Sectoids, however. One explanation is that ever since the apocalyptic explosion, mental powers steadily degraded because of a combination of harmful chemicals in the air, medications required to keep folks alive in such an environment, the random chance that many great minds died in the catastrophe, widespread addiction to psychoactive drugs (and later the Psiclones), the popularity of psychic entertainment (which may or may not require an "open" -- i.e., stupid and vulnerable -- mind), the brains being unable to develop properly in artificial wombs, and even general apathy. All of these may have favored the survival of hybrids (which may be why they have good psi and are shunned by "normal" people).

The explanation that I like better, though, is that Marsec's Mind Bender is not a military weapon; it is simply a rich man's toy, so it needs much greater psi strength to use. It has all sorts of flashy "features" -- probe, stun, panic, control, and probably many more that you will never use in combat, such as perhaps making the target wet his pants -- and even the name, "Mind Bender," sounds like a marketing ploy. The original Psi-Amp needed Elerium to project psionic attacks with enough power, but the Mind Bender might not, although Marsec does have privileged access to Elerium supplies. This might also explain why attacks in Apoc are line-of-sight only. In an effort to make it "user-friendly," Marsec dumbed down the Mind Bender such that users need not only to know where their target is, but to see it with their own eyes. Maybe attacking unseen targets made people dizzy or sick. And that's not good for business.

Another explanation is that Ethereals were always more powerful than humans... without Psi-Amps. Without a Psi-Amp, Ethereals could use psi, but humans could not. You were not supposed to give Psi-Amps to Aliens, so the result could be considered a mere oversight. In this case, the Zerg would love to get an Ethereal. :)