Destruction Of Buildings

[Guest Jim69]

As I understand it buildings are gonna be built and destroyed exactly the same as in UFO. There are good points about this as it is extremly easy to code, just replace the new section with a damaged one. However this has the disadvantage of all buildings being required 2 be built in this way, hense a lot of poly's in every building.

 

I have a different way, it is much harder but economises polys. Maybe it is too hard, I know I wouldn't be able 2 do it, but at least the game could have bigger maps this way.

 

This is my idea. Each building is built on a level, as in UFO, but not split into blocks. A code could split the building up into chunks like above, but only in a variable. A couple of variables would be needed 4 each building, like the chunks limits.

 

In an example, lets say the chunk on the bottom left of a building 1st floor. The limits of the chunk on the X axis are stored, say 0-20. When a weapon is fired that is capable of damaging a wall the code checks 2 see which chunk the weapon fire hit. It then loads a different model of that chunk missing.

 

I know this is a heck of a lot more work, but it would save polys and could let it expand the map size. Maybe it isn't even possible, I don't know. Could someone give an opinion as to whether this is doable, or even desireable?

[Aosar]

In an example, lets say the chunk on the bottom left of a building 1st floor. The limits of the chunk on the X axis are stored, say 0-20. When a weapon is fired that is capable of damaging a wall the code checks 2 see which chunk the weapon fire hit. It then loads a different model of that chunk missing.

 

Well I'm no expert, but that would be feasable in theory, but in practise...

 

Besides, a piece of wall, depending on the detail wouldn't be so poly rich, I presume...

[Guest Jim69]

Well, the thing is that a box is 12 Polys each. In the barn in UFO they were 12x12 squares, and 2 levels each. Thats 3456 per building, without ne thing in it. Plus there are windows, which would require 3 boxes per block. Say there are 8 windows, thats another 200 odd polys ( couldn't be arsed 2 work out ). Thats gonna make a simple small barn equal about 5000-7000 polys. A house is gonna be a lot more, plus civies, plus troops, plus street etc.

 

It's all gonna add up, I dunno if someone has thought of the poly count 4 buildings already, but if u use this way then that same house could be around 2000-4000. Thats nearly twice the size of the available map space. Again, I dunno what the poly limits are but if they are gonna be as tight as I think then it could get quite hectic.

[Breunor]

Actually I've put a lot of thought into the poly counts of buildings and the use of building blocks. Each wall chunk actually has 10 tris, since the bottom is never done. Windows are a lot more depending on the detail level used, can be up to 100. You're right that a building can take 5000+ polys, but as RK has mentioned in another thread, the poly limits for the video card are based on the visible screen area, not the entire battlescape. I think the increased work of making different blocks to replace damaged ones is way beyond what we'd want to do. You'd have to make chunks for every possible combination you'd encounter, which is a lot when it's more than a simple box with no windows. You'd end up making 10 times more models, and the textures would also be different, and would eat up memory there as well.

 

I think we're safe to use the block system for the models, despite the extra polys that entails. The alpha channel is planned for making the 'damaged' layer for each piece IIRC. The use of gravity, at least like that used in Apoc if not better, will work well with the block system too. I don't think it would with this system, unless you put a huge amount of coding in to figure it out.

[Aosar]

True, however it also depends on the engine. How advanced it will be and so on...

 

Then again, in modern day games the polycount in the PC and the NPCs, is atleast on that level...

[Guest Jim69]

Actually I've put a lot of thought into the poly counts of buildings and the use of building blocks. Each wall chunk actually has 10 tris, since the bottom is never done. Windows are a lot more depending on the detail level used, can be up to 100. You're right that a building can take 5000+ polys, but as RK has mentioned in another thread, the poly limits for the video card are based on the visible screen area, not the entire battlescape. I think the increased work of making different blocks to replace damaged ones is way beyond what we'd want to do. You'd have to make chunks for every possible combination you'd encounter, which is a lot when it's more than a simple box with no windows. You'd end up making 10 times more models, and the textures would also be different, and would eat up memory there as well.

 

I think we're safe to use the block system for the models, despite the extra polys that entails. The alpha channel is planned for making the 'damaged' layer for each piece IIRC. The use of gravity, at least like that used in Apoc if not better, will work well with the block system too. I don't think it would with this system, unless you put a huge amount of coding in to figure it out.

Very true. I wasn't too sure on it myself, it seemed like an alternative 2 the block system. However, if it isn't gonna be a problem then after I finished the model I'm working on I'll try and do some blocks.

 

Are the buildings gonna be completly random usin something like XCOMUTIL uses, I understand the maker is involved in this project so I guess it's definatly an option.

[Breunor]

(This is my understanding of how it works, btw) No, we'll need to make each building as a complete model, and then that will be inserted into the battlescape. When it's inserted, each piece of the model will be renamed using a code, so those parts can later be shot up. Ideally we will have 3ds objects for recycled items like furniture, and we can import them into each building. But I think we'd have the building with all the internals included, so I think your best bet is to build the structure with all its bits and pieces included and positioned as you want them. Make sure to use a non-generic name for the building, if everybody names them 'building01' we'll be renaming lots of stuff...

 

So if the building's specific to a continent, use a 2 digit prefix for that. NA, SA, AS, EU, AF, AU. (north/south america, asia, europe, africa, australia) Then an underscore, then perhaps res or bus for residential/business? Perhaps we don't need anything else, maybe not even the continent, since some buildings could be used in more than one. Just change the texture and you're set. I planned on making maybe 10 different buildings, and then apply a couple textures to each to make a good mix of them. If several of us do that, we'd have plenty of variety in basic stuff. Then we start making specialty items from there.

[Guest Jim69]

I think the best thing 2 do would be 2 model a building in a place u live/know a lot about. U know what the average house in ur own country looks like, but u could get an unrealistic "one off build" house by searching on the internet. Then, if someone sees a model that looks a lot like one in their own country they could say and prehaps provide some pics 2 texture.

[Breunor]

I agree, particularly if you've got a digital camera. You can take a pic, model it with the blocks, and then skin it with the picture. Drewid posted some links about doing this kind of texturing a while back, you want to make sure and take the picture, if possible, when it's overcast so you don't get heavy shadows or something like that. I think it was a page talking about the making of the UK version of Grand Theft Auto, forget what that one's called.

[Guest Jim69]

Yeah, thats lucky. Won't be hard 2 find a overcast day in England ::

[j'ordos]

Now, it shouldn't be rainy or foggy either, that might be a tad harder

[Guest Jim69]

, it aint usually foggy, altho it does rain a lot. Still, won't be hard 2 find an overcast day since thats pretty much every day ::

[Fred the Goat]

I think it was a page talking about the making of the UK version of Grand Theft Auto, forget what that one's called.

Driver? Was that it?

 

P.S. I live in the Pacific Northwest. Not much fog, but it's overcast and raining 9 months out of the year. And I have a digital camera, for what that's worth.

Edited July 28, 2003 by Fred the Goat

[Guest Jim69]

No, it was The Getaway.

[Breunor]

The Getaway was it. I think my post was misread, as I said try for an overcast day. If it's bright and sunny, you'll get shadows cast on your texture and have to fix them. Overcast days don't cast as many shadows and should make it easier. That's what I remember from the article at least.

[Guest Jim69]

Yeah, I read that. Good advice that, seems they even had some problems in London. Mainly coz of the rain, but I remember part of it sayin they were takin some photo's of a sex shop and the owner chased them and broke their camera ::

[Fred the Goat]

:: Nice. Yeah, ok, The Getaway sounds right.