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More Than One Mission Per Outing


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#1 c4t

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Posted 04 July 2003 - 11:58 PM

something that a good thing to incorperate into a post 1.0 version would be the option of having your skyranger/avenger/lightning be able to do more than one mission per outing. from my experiences i would have my skyranger fly to an alien craft or downed alien craft and then once the mission is over the craft is forced to fly to base. ok, what if a terror mission springs up right near you ( and you still have all of your men and plenty of ammo, you pwned that crashsite up) you should be able to re-route to it rather then to be forced to fly back to base and wait like 20 hours for your skyranger to refuel. correct me if im worng
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#2 Kenshiro

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 12:31 AM

*Puts on his chrome helmet and flips his swagger stick under an arm*

It seems to me that if the US Army can march 320 miles in 4 weeks with constant engagments all the way - wearing Kevlar and Ceramic Plate-Lined Assault Vests, no less - these so-called "elite" X-Corps operatives should be able to engage more than once after hitching a ride into battle on a frickin' plane. I don't think they should be fully refreshed when they jump in the second time around - even suffer a small penalty for fatigue, perhaps - but really...you shouldn't have to fly all the way back if your aircraft is fine on gas.

#3 c4t

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 01:25 AM

penulty does seem appropriate, but why? if you hold down the next turn button for some rounds your characters are fully refreshed, i mean the only thing that goes down and stays down after rounds is energy. and there should be psi energy too. but whateva.
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Posted 05 July 2003 - 02:44 PM

Plus ne injuries would carry forward to the next mission, instead of not being able to use them.

#5 hippyjon

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 06:53 PM

hmm, being unable to use wouded soldiers in consecutive missions would be a subtible penulty. this would be best if it was tied in with some kind of long term fatiuge thing.

(btw im dyslexic and drunk so just ignore the spelling miskates :) )
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#6 c4t

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 08:05 PM

i think all soldiers should carry over. how would the fatigue penalty work? oh, maybe each soldier loses 10 percent use of their time units? like the way they do that thing where you havetoo much stuff on you the next round you just start off with less time units, we could do that. maybe 20 percent, hmm. what do you guys thing. elaborate.
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#7 hippyjon

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Posted 05 July 2003 - 08:45 PM

well, there would have to be a fatigue rating for each agent (invisible to the player or not) that would mainly effect energy and moral i think... other things to a greater or lesser extent depending, could make it so you have to keep a large squad and rotate them to keep them fresh, forcing more stratagy in yr squad selection.

(before anyone says it, i know this is v1+, thats the point of the lab, no?)
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#8 Fred the Goat

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 08:57 PM

Yeah, that sounds right. You jump out of a plane, shoot up a barn full of mischevious aliens, and your buddy gets creamed by one of their grenades. You have two hours to recuperate on the plane flight to the next site. You're still going to be a little worn out, no? Emotionally and physically drained. :crying:

#9 c4t

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 09:10 PM

the " :crying: " smiley is strange... i always thougth it was some sort of barfing thing, if it should represent crying i think there should be tears coming out or atleast a yellow face, it looks like its sick!


(sliglty off topic there ^_^ )
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#10 Captain_Simian

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 06:31 AM

Morale should be the one that is the most important, and other stats like energy should be effected by your level of morale. Cause when you are really revved up and morale is high you can do heaps more, but as it goes down you shouldnt be able to do as much. So when the aliens lower your morale with psionics your movement gets decreased.

I know i wouldnt want to go running into battle after seeing my best mate's head bitten off by a reaper or something similar.

Also i agree all soldiers should be carried over if you go to a second mission without refueling, and their fatal wounds should be carried over as well - making healing in the field a much higher priority, cause their might be enough turns in the next mission for your guy to die from blood loss.

#11 j'ordos

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 06:36 AM

Also i agree all soldiers should be carried over if you go to a second mission without refueling, and their fatal wounds should be carried over as well - making healing in the field a much higher priority, cause their might be enough turns in the next mission for your guy to die from blood loss.

If he wasn't healed at the end of the frist mission he'd be dead before the start of the second one, unless he would be healed during their trip in the skyranger...

I know i wouldnt want to go running into battle after seeing my best mate's head bitten off by a reaper or something similar.

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#12 Breunor

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 08:06 AM

Well, it's a rare thing for 2 crash sites to be just a few hours apart, I tend to get them with more space. But in any case, during those several hours, soldiers can drink sports drinks, get oxygen from tanks, drink coffee, etc to fight fatigue. But even when a battle lasts just a few minutes, the adrenaline crash after life and death battles can really take it out of you. So I can see a reduced energy penalty being appropriate. I think wounded should still be allowed, but they maintain the wounds. Unless it was an untreated fatal wound, the soldier would live between missions, just like they survive the trip back to base. Just don't get them in harm's way again... Same goes for fuel, if you have enough then you should be able to redirect the transport to a second site. The penalties are plenty-reduced energy, maintained wounds, limited ammo.

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#13 hippyjon

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 08:16 AM

i dont think the soldiers would sit around drinking sports drinks while one of their mates bleeds to death :D fatal wounds should be treated in transit
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#14 miceless

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 08:16 AM

Also i agree all soldiers should be carried over if you go to a second mission without refueling, and their fatal wounds should be carried over as well - making healing in the field a much higher priority, cause their might be enough turns in the next mission for your guy to die from blood loss.

If he wasn't healed at the end of the frist mission he'd be dead before the start of the second one, unless he would be healed during their trip in the skyranger...

I think we can safely assume that if there was something someone could do to help while in flight they would do it. It would depend on whether or not there wer any medkits on board.

The question is, should the wounded people be out of action for the second mission, or just reduced in efficiency. I say the later, as the user can always decide to just leave the wounded guy in the craft with a guard if (s)he so desires.
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#15 c4t

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 03:13 PM

wounded people already suffer a penulty for accuracy and health. though, i have had it where my guy got shot in the arm with a power suit on , and he lost almost no health but had 2 fatal wounds, so i healed them and his health was full...
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#16 Kenshiro

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 03:35 PM

It would make sense that after they take off the team will have enough time and training to stabilize any life-threatening wounds they would have been able to treat in the field. However, there are those serious wounds that can kill if not treated in a hospital. I think if there are any operatives on board that have fatal wounds the player should be warned and have to confirm they want to send their team out again and risk a chance that some of them die from fatal wounds before arriving at the battlefield. Survivors should be considered stabilized as if treated with a medikit.

I think the amount of TUs each soldier should be modified based on three things:

1) Their morale - I agree with the above comment that this should be a major factor
2) The number of turns the team was engaged (from experience, even if you are just standing around in a hostile environment, you get tired and sweat and your energy is depleted from the adrenaline, even in a extreme cold weather environment and doubly so in a hot one).
3) Any wounds received and the amount of actual shooting each operative does. Your "tank" operatives are gonna be beat; you should have to send in your B squad for the second half.

#17 Nickisimo

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 01:26 PM

Interesting topic. Wounded soldiers have to fight, or at least stay in the plane, because where else would they be? We can safely assume they have something onboard to treat the wounded(maybe the co-pilot is a doctor or something).

I like the idea of penalties based on how long the previous engagement was. A three round recovery of a small scout that only requires that 4 of your guys leave the plane shouldn't wear anyone down too much, but if you send them through a harrowing alien base raid, and whether you lose anyone or not, sending them to another site should incur tons of penalties.

TU's, energy, morale...maybe bravery and reactions too?
After living through a tough fight, a soldier might be a little less willing to move into that dark hallway by himself. Fatigue would certainly make the soldiers react a little slower(especially if they've been gone from the base for 24+ hours). I like the idea of having tank TU's reduced...maybe accy too. :blink:

#18 j'ordos

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 02:18 PM

Experienced soldiers would also be less susceptible to those effects (or rookies are a lot more affected -_- ) After all, veterans have 'been there done that', IMHO
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#19 miceless

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 02:31 PM

However, there are those serious wounds that can kill if not treated in a hospital.  I think if there are any operatives on board that have fatal wounds the player should be warned and have to confirm they want to send their team out again and risk a chance that some of them die from fatal wounds before arriving at the battlefield.  Survivors should be considered stabilized as if treated with a medikit.

Does someone who was healed on the field count as stable? If they are healed of any fatal wounds, do they stand a chance of dying on the way? If you ignore people with healed wounds, then you cant claim that anyone can die. If you dont ignore them, then whats to stop someone from dying on the way home even without a second outing?

I think all wounded soldiers should be counted as stable for the purposes of "Are they going to die?" but that any that were wounded are seriously affected on a second outing. Whether they were healed on the field, or still had wounds when the last turn ended should be irrelevent.
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#20 hippyjon

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 04:51 PM

im with miceless, otherwise players would have to make sure they healed all their wounded before they killed the last alien or risk loosing them. anyone one who didnt do this would be left thinking "why the he|| didnt they just heal him on the plane?!"

but in the hours between missions then things would easily get worse for the wounded, the worst that should happen IMO though is that they are unable to fight in the next battle

Edited by hippyjon, 09 July 2003 - 04:54 PM.

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#21 Breunor

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 05:36 PM

You're correct that there must be better medical tools on the transport that require more time than you have in battle. Considering each turn is 4 seconds, using a 'real' medical kit would take 30+ turns for quick stuff... But consider this: if a wound is so bad that you'll die in less than 1 minute/15 turns, isn't that a very serious wound? Yes you can stablize it when you're transported home, but what if you go back into battle, running/ducking/dodging at full speed again? You'd likely reopen the wound. So having a fixed percentage loss due to previous wounds makes sense, say 25%. That's the "taking it slow" factor that keeps the wounds safe. How does that sound?

#22 c4t

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 07:56 PM

i like it.
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#23 miceless

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Posted 09 July 2003 - 11:37 PM

if a wound is so bad that you'll die in less than 1 minute/15 turns, isn't that a very serious wound?

I would say so, yes.

Yes you can stablize it when you're transported home, but what if you go back into battle, running/ducking/dodging at full speed again? You'd likely reopen the wound.

Probably true.

So having a fixed percentage loss due to previous wounds makes sense, say 25%. That's the "taking it slow" factor that keeps the wounds safe. How does that sound?

I dont like the idea. Id rather have them show upin the skyranger with no time units, or lying on the floor or something (if possible). That would also add the element of having to protect all the wounded on the second mission.

People who are healed on the field can carry on fighting that mission fine, to suddenly have them die later on would be wrong IMO. If your going to do it like that then why dont wounded people die at the bases, or on the trip back home? Flight time is far longer than battle times in most cases.
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#24 Breunor

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 07:42 AM

What I meant was the wounded can still fight, but with a 25% TU penalty. If you were wounded but could still fight, would you stay in the plane, possibly forcing another teammate to stay and watch you, as your buddies go out to say civilians? Or would you do what you could to help fight the aliens? You'd take it slow, stay to the rear and guard the unit's rear and flanks IMO. It's one thing to have thousands of troops, where the wounded can go to the back and rest up. But when there's just 10 of you, and you're the best of the best, little things like open wounds will slow you down, but not stop you... IMO. :D

#25 miceless

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 07:49 AM

Oh sorry, i thought you meant 25% of them would die. :D No, a 25% penalty on TUs is eactly what I had in mind. It could even vary depending on how badly the soldier was wounded.

I was imagining a 25% casualty rate at the end of missions and wondering if the earth would have any humans left on it...
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#26 j'ordos

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 08:00 AM

I've had plenty missions with a casualty ratio of nearly 100 %, and never had any shortage of fresh recruits (maybe in Apoc, but that's different) ^_^

Perhaps the amount of TU's lost can also be made dependant on just HOW wounded someone is. Sometimes a soldier gets hit, one fatal wound and 15 HP gone, but sometimes it's like 4 fatal wounds and 5 hitpoints left. That would make a difference as well, IMHO. Allthough you probably wouldn't let the second one get out of the skyranger anymore, so maybe it autobalances somewhat.
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#27 Nickisimo

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 08:22 AM

I'd imagine that a poor guy with 4 fatal wounds and 5 HP wouldn't be able to lift a finger, let alone keep fighting aliens.

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#28 j'ordos

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 08:29 AM

I'd imagine that a poor guy with 4 fatal wounds and 5 HP wouldn't be able to lift a finger, let alone keep fighting aliens.

"You OK, Bob?"
"No prob, Cap. My right leg got blown off, and my chest looks like swiss cheese, but I can keep going."

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I've HAD situations like that :D
Things like that are really tense: O shuckeroonies 12 HP and 4 fatal wounds, I have to find one of them soldiers with a medi-kit... let's have a looksie... crap! they're on the other side of the map :cussing: Then the race is on! Will they meet each other in time?? Will the medic have enough time-units left to heal the wounded one??? Kinda weird the shot-up guy has no trouble moving at full speed towards the medic though :blink:
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#29 Nickisimo

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 09:44 AM

Yeah, I've been in those spots too. Sometimes I've even had to do like a chain of moving for a little bit, dropping the med-kit for someone else, having them carry it on like a baton until they get close enough to the poor guy(or girl). :idea:

No blood trails, plenty of TU's and energy...yeah, that has V1.0+ written all over it. :happybanana:

#30 Fred the Goat

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 01:05 PM

It was mentioned before, that there should be a sort of long-term energy rating. What about the same for morale? I always thought it was silly in x-com that morale got up to 100 so fast. Your buddy gets shot, you go berserk, a minute/6 turns later you're fine. I mean, assuming 0 morale is freakout/berserk/panic level, it's true that morale should rise enough in 10-30 seconds to the point where you've stopped shooting at your mates, but it should take a heck of a lot longer to get back to 100. Maybe you could even say that once your morale gets below your bravery, it can't get above it until you freshen up back home. At any rate, you should be stuck at low morale and probably low energy (and time units, if you were shot) after a battle, in proportion to how that battle went. If you just blasted those little sectoids, then no problem, you'd probably be a little drained from being shot at, but you could do another mission. But if Turner got whacked, you'll be sad all day. -_-

[EDIT]

Oh, and as for healing, I agree with Breunor, and I'd add that medikits are only a scientific breakthrough in that an untrained soldier can now fully stabilize another soldier, no matter how badly they're shot up, in the space of ten seconds. Those hypos and sugarpills sure do the trick. Once they've got a minute back on the plane, I think we can suspend disbelief enough to say that they can patch up your soldier to the point that they won't die, just using gauze, turniquets, and aloe vera cream.

Edited by Fred the Goat, 18 July 2003 - 01:13 PM.


#31 Nickisimo

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 01:33 PM

I still think there should be some sort of penalty for the soldiers going into the next mission even if no one was wounded/killed. Just being in a combat environment is stressful, and coming into close contact or killing anything is going to take something out of you.

I thought it was kinda cool in SOCOM that when you switched to FPV you could actually hear your guy breathing hard. War is scary! :whatwhat:

#32 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 03:11 PM

How long are they really gonna be in battle 4? 30 mins? They don't even have to tab it from destination to destination, they get a nice convenient lift from battle 2 battle. Sounds a heck of a lot more convenient that most SF's get. It has not been unknown 4 them 2 have 2 or 3 battles while tabbing 10-20k's in a night, and ur sayin these guys can't handle 2 30 min battles when they are air lifted from place 2 place, and even when there never have 2 walk more than 1/4 of a mile.

#33 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 03:41 PM

It has not been unknown 4 them 2 have 2 or 3 battles while tabbing 10-20k's in a night

Ahh, but those special forces were never fighting alien monsters which could laugh off your bullets and then burn through your flak vest in a matter of seconds! I figure that fighting aliens would be even more stressful than fighting humans. Adding in mankind's built in xenophobia the stress would probably get to just about anyone after just a few battles.

Anyway, I agree with Fred, about basing stats on how the previous battle went. If it went well, the soldiers would probably get a adrenalin (sp?) rush and would be eager for battle.

On the other hand, if they saw Colonel X-Dude get turned into a little puddle of goop and Captain Bob get molested by a chryssalid then they probably wouldn't be able to do much of anything for a while. Just from the emotional shock of it.
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Posted 18 July 2003 - 03:44 PM

I'd say don't go too mad with the stats. Some SF's have been in some crappy situations b4, e.g. a couple of APC's attacking, and all they have is their crappy rifle to try and stop them. Moral is a definate, stamina prehaps, but these peeps are meant to be as fit as some pro athletes.