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Ufo2000 Weapon Set Upgrades


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#51 Fomka

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 06:26 PM

to Sporb
thanks for directing to weapon's stats. Reviewing that file I've noticed that RPG missile has non-zero cost and weight - result is that RPG stats in armory are not right. Stats show price and weight of the launcher only. May lead to misunderstanding, cause equipped soldier would have higher price and weight, although I've noticed it not from the armory.

#52 NinthRank

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:30 PM

I ran into the same problem with the RPG. I began to equip a soldier with it, seeing the incredibly low cost of 100 points. Imagine my surprise when I saw the 300-point dent in my funds! So, I took the liberty of making a "clone" of the RPG itself -- labeled "RPG (no reload)" -- and inserting it into the two sheets. The object is now 1x2, and the inventory PNG has been copied and changed accordingly. Thus the player can equip it, but receives no advantage from doing so.

Edit: renamed file

Attached Files


Edited by NinthRank, 25 September 2006 - 09:31 PM.


#53 Sporb

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:38 PM

Hmmm. At the time i thought it was a neccesary tradeoff having to guess at the cost. But now that i think about it, i can merely make the launcher part more expensive to compensate. There might be some problems with adding zeros to the LUA for weight and cost but it ran ok on my machine - lemme know of any problems

thanks for the heads up - New LUA avaliable that fixes the problem. Just place the new LUA in the ufo2000 weaponsets root

@ NinthRank: thanks for making a stop gap avaliable

Edited by Sporb, 25 September 2006 - 09:43 PM.


#54 NinthRank

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 09:52 PM

Excellent... um... should I take my fix off to preserve the file's synchronization?

#55 Sporb

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Posted 25 September 2006 - 11:56 PM

entirely up to you - both do different things

#56 Sporb

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Posted 29 September 2006 - 03:51 AM

there will be (with luck) one more download of the entire set soon that will enable all the new effects that are avaliable.

This will hopefully be the final update of this particular set until more features are added to the engine and becoem applicable to the set

#57 John Faust

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 12:01 AM

I eagerly await.
I thought I'd pretend I was one of those deaf mutes, or should I?

#58 Sporb

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Posted 02 November 2006 - 12:13 AM

Theres not much point in updating the set any further until the game has progressed further. Features that need to be there simply arent

#59 Sporb

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 02:48 AM

Weaponset updated. New Sounds added! there fairly basic and ugly but there i made them myself so there free of copyright

#60 John Faust

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Posted 19 March 2007 - 07:04 PM

Me and my Posse think they sound cool
I thought I'd pretend I was one of those deaf mutes, or should I?

#61 bamb

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 06:33 AM

So, is this set now totally free of copyright?

We were talking with pope the other day, we had some ideas for adjustments.
1) Knife TU usage should be upped a tiny bit imo. At the moment it's easier to go through walls than open doors. 12 to 15% perhaps?
2) Chainsaw could do more damage, at the moment it's just a worse sword that costs 30 less. It should be a devastating weapon that uses a lot of TU:s so that it would be differentiated enough from the knives and the sword.
3) Plasma pistol is useless, laser pistol is similar but requires no cells and is cheaper in total. Plasmas generally do more damage, so it'd make sense that way.
4) We gotta adjust the plasma blaster some still. At the moment one always picks the heavy laser over it.
5) Plasma knife isn't worth the extra price as it's too similar to a regular knife. Differentiate them a tiny bit more in the damage department.

The set we (pope, boom and I at least) are playing with, is here, in one total package. I think sporb this should be the basis for improvements? Or?

I'll do a weapon table some day.

Really, a new release is needed that includes this set as default as it's clearly much better than the 1071 original. It's extremely tedious trying to get people to install it. ("where do I unzip?" "it doesn't work, since I didn't move out the old folder but just renamed it.")

Edited by bamb, 13 August 2007 - 06:36 AM.


#62 Serge

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 01:27 PM

Weaponset updated. New Sounds added! there fairly basic and ugly but there i made them myself so there free of copyright

Well, so these files just have your copyright then ;) Copyright is a thing that attributes the authorship of this work to you. License is a thing which grants other people some rights to use your work, author is the one who chooses the license. There are various licenses around varying from very restrictive (they usually accompany proprietary software) to free ones which generally encourage community development. See some more information here: http://en.wikipedia....cense_agreement

We are using GPL license for UFO2000 project. It is a well known free software license which was designed for and primarily applies to source code, so some argue that it might be not the best choice for graphics and media. Anyway, everything that is included into UFO2000 distribution gets covered by GPL unless it has its own different (but GPL compatible) license. I generally asked every contributor if he agreed to put his work under GPL license before adding anything to the project tree (maybe I forgot to mention it sometimes, but it should be quite obvious that any contribution should be compatible with the project license even without reminding that every time :)).
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#63 Sporb

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Posted 19 August 2007 - 11:35 PM

The time has come to prune off some of the less - used weapons from the UFo2K set. I would like people to tell me what they think should go and a reason why. This is also a time for ballancing and fine-tuning so speak up.

So far the weapons im going to cut are:
Gap generator - huge smoke grenades arent really needed
Multi-launcher - its just too damn big and expensive ... and blowy-uppy
Laser Sniper - There are already 2 other types so out it goes
Plasma Sword - While the Chainsore is interesting, the Plasma Sword is just ... meh at best
Elite Plasma Rifle - it looks cool, but thats about all it does
AR66 - Possibly: its only real function is to combine 2 guns into one.

Edited by Sporb, 19 August 2007 - 11:37 PM.


#64 Kratos

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 12:36 AM

I think I'm using the old version of ufo2k weapons, not sure.

Plasmid Core - I can't find any use for the Plasmid Core except placing it in my belt.

Shiv - With it being 35 damage, and almost identical in value to the combat knife, it seems rather useless.

#65 bamb

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 02:25 AM

The time has come to prune off some of the less - used weapons from the UFo2K set. I would like people to tell me what they think should go and a reason why. This is also a time for ballancing and fine-tuning so speak up.

So far the weapons im going to cut are:
Gap generator - huge smoke grenades arent really needed
Multi-launcher - its just too damn big and expensive ... and blowy-uppy
Laser Sniper - There are already 2 other types so out it goes
Plasma Sword - While the Chainsore is interesting, the Plasma Sword is just ... meh at best
Elite Plasma Rifle - it looks cool, but thats about all it does
AR66 - Possibly: its only real function is to combine 2 guns into one.



Multi-launcher - I use it sometimes when I need lots of firepower in a very short time at pretty close range. It's not useless.
Gap - Never used
Laser Sniper - Some people like it, it's a heavier alternative for the ordinary sniper rifle. Other weapons are less accurate, and with them you have no hope of hitting from distance.
Sword - It's much much better than the chainsore, and it only costs 30 more. I think it should be more expensive, and I also think chainsore should do more damage, as it uses much more TU:s. The main idea again is that you should not have many weapons where the bigger and expensive ones just do less damage per TU, you'd be then better off by just firing the cheaper one more times. Plasma sword should be an elite weapon so that you could perhaps equip one guy to be a heavily armored fast forward swordsman. If chainsore had worse damage per TU but more damage per punch, you could break walls better with it. So in total - increase plasma sword price - increase chainsore damage.
Elite plasma - never used
AR66 - Probably never used, don't remember why.

Additional commentary:
-Normal knives are more cost effective than plasma knives. More differentiation is needed. Lessen ordinary knife's damage slightly and increase plasma's price some so it's a choice.
-Plasma pistol is similar to laser pistol in damage but costs more with clip. It should be better, now it always loses to laser pistol.

I wonder if the stun bug was already fixed? You could combine the extra weapons to the main ufo2000 weapon set then.

A new monolithic release is needed that has the sounds in the same package. Put a beta up first so bugs can be found.

#66 Kratos

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 12:29 PM

I wonder if the stun bug was already fixed? You could combine the extra weapons to the main ufo2000 weapon set then.

Stun bug? Do tell. I never heard of such a bug. Please report this in our bugtracker and possibly try testing this see if you can duplicate it before reporting.

And next time, don't just throw such a comment out there so offtopic. Bugs are meant to be reported and found, not lost.

#67 bamb

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 12:37 PM

I wonder if the stun bug was already fixed? You could combine the extra weapons to the main ufo2000 weapon set then.

Stun bug? Do tell. I never heard of such a bug. Please report this in our bugtracker and possibly try testing this see if you can duplicate it before reporting.

And next time, don't just throw such a comment out there so offtopic. Bugs are meant to be reported and found, not lost.


LOL, it's an old and known bug, the bug tracker wasn't even available back then. Sporb at least has known about it for quite a long time. If you are stunned on your own turn (from mine or reaction shot for example), the game unsyncs, if I remember correctly.

Edited by bamb, 20 August 2007 - 12:38 PM.


#68 Kratos

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 04:08 PM

Well report it in bugtracker, it's up.

Now let's get back on topic shall we? Sporb is cutting weapons from the ufo2k set.

#69 Popek

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 10:21 PM

Laser Sniper Rifle - Keep it... please.

I've used the multi-launcher a few times as a surprise tool, i don't see why it needs to be removed, I can see it being more used when/if directional damage is applied.

AR66 (is that the version with the grenade launcher/AR combo?) if so, I think if stun ammunition was available for its grenade launcher , that was also more effective than the experimental set stuff you added couple months back, it would see some play, especially in some scenarios.

Gap Generator: interesting concept, for some reason i envisioned it to blow up and create more of a wall of smoke like 10x2 tiles, but i don't think you can really do this. :D I can't comment much because I don't rely heavily on smoke cover as often as I should.

SAW/Sword - i say keep them, but modify them, bambuz made some good points, and we've actually discussed those 2 weapons probably the most in our time playing the game. As of yet I don't think we've really come to any solid conclusions.

Shiv - keep 'er, isn't it cheaper? i forget, i bring combat knives myself usually as my squad setup supports it, but one of my regular oponents is quite fond of substituting them to save a few points in exchange for smoke and grenades...


hmmm it's clear i'm not a big fan of pruning away items, instead choosing to modify them so they have a valuable place in the scheme.

Actually.... if anything goes... it's dum dum bullets o_O
That magnum would be cool if it could be resized to fit as a sidearm instead of in a backpack... I was quite fond of using it for a while, until those precious TU's became more important to me when switching up inventory.



I think a BIG thing to consider with weapons, is that they might be far more useful in different scenarions, different battlescapes, or even as a surprise element against an opponent who has grown wise to your squad...

#70 Popek

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Posted 20 August 2007 - 10:23 PM

LOL, it's an old and known bug, the bug tracker wasn't even available back then. Sporb at least has known about it for quite a long time. If you are stunned on your own turn (from mine or reaction shot for example), the game unsyncs, if I remember correctly.


actually the player who is stunned on their own turn (only from a mine) can't end their turn.

thus you remember incorrectly ^_^

#71 John Faust

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 12:10 AM

I'm not a fan of the shiv, except for Most Dangerous Game style games. I do however like the laser sniper in most situations.
The multilauncher I'm mixed about.
The Ar 66 is a fav of mine, and the chainsaw needs an upgrade.

my two cents.
I thought I'd pretend I was one of those deaf mutes, or should I?

#72 Sporb

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 01:48 AM

The Pulse Cannon has been removed.
The PSY Burst mine has been removed.
The Multi-Launcher has been removed.
The ELITE plasma Cannon has been removed.
The GAP generator Has been removed.
The Plasma Sword has been removed.
The shiv Has been removed.
Various balancing has been performed.
Medical Hypos have been added.
The AR66 can stay if i remove the AR55.
We can keep the Laser sniper but ill have to chop one of the other lasers. At the moment im thinking Laser Cannon.

#73 bamb

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 11:12 AM

Don't remove AR55! It's a great cheapish medium all round gun. Assault rifles are the staple of militaries around the world. The S45 submachine has so little damage per shot that it rarely destroys walls, so I often use AR55 for cheap troops, when the lasers are too expensive, never mind plasmas, and pistols too inaccurate.

I did use the AR66 in last game, reaction fired a grenade straight on a sectoid that didn't die. :(
I think the problem with that gun is that you can't have both clips in at the same time, and it takes TU:s to put the normal clip to your belt and back in again when firing grenades. So if something had to be gotten rid of, I'd say the AR66.


Why did you have to remove so many weapons? I just used multi-launcher in our last game and killed two people with one salvo. I've used it before too. Great for killing people in buildings.

Also now that the sword is gone I can't have an expensive heavy armor guy with a huge amount of TU:s, stamina and health that moves behind the enemy lines going through walls etc. and hitting people in the back.

I've actually played quite a lot with the ufo2000 weaponset so I think my opinions should be heard.

Edited by bamb, 21 August 2007 - 11:14 AM.


#74 Kratos

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 03:03 PM

Where's an official version so I can tell you what I really think about the Ufo2k weapon set. Before I leave, I want to give my full opinion on this, simply because I just don't like this set. Why? It's so variated, you can't balance it, period. The artwork, mind you, is superb, so kudos to Sporb. :) This is the official ufo2k weapon set, and I don't feel that it is representing it's duty to be called balanced.

Just because you guys want to keep weapons, doesn't mean it shouldn't be pruned (you can always have a ufo2k add-on set for those for download). But the official ufo2k set needs to be pruned, a lot, regardless whether you want it to be. I don't play "I just killed your power suit with a bullet" or "Lasers beat plasma all round" or vice versa. And explosions can be the worst part about balancing if you're not careful. There is a reason why the explosion range was dumbed down from 7 to 5 in xcom modified of the original, it's a huge explosion. Explosion radius 3 may sound small, but let me tell you something, it's not. Charging extra in cost isn't always the key to balancing, it's everything. And I'd suggest looking at Xcom modified as a reference, if not copying some features. There is nothing wrong with copy pasting those stats, they're well balanced. And consider this, those who don't have Xcom probably don't want to be confused with so many damn weapon variations, they have enough trouble with over 2 sets.

This is why I prefer playing Xcom Modified over Original. It's not because it has extra things in it. It's not because it makes certain weapons weaker. But it's balanced. All weapons have a purpose. Bullets are weak and cheap. Small Launcher is 500 and not 100 cost like the rocket launcher because it's ammo isn't 300 a piece. Lasers are weaker than plasma, but get the job done just about right with their low cost proficiency. Plasma rifles are more expensive than Heavy Plasmas because they are a snap/auto shot master. Heavy Plasma will guarantee a single hit (aimed) but will also guarantee that any armored unit will either be injured or killed. Let me tell you a story about it's snap shot, it is possible to beat your opponent 1vs4 with that thing. How so? My enemy can't hit me so well when injured (or none at all dead). I will end the list here, but maybe by now all of you understand the point I'm making.

I'll continue my point once I can get my hands on the official release from Sporb. I'm just going to be truthful about pruning, not sentimental. And like I said before, if you want those extra weapons, include them into a different weapon category, they don't have to be lost.

#75 bamb

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 04:11 PM

I have played lots of games with the ufo2000 weaponset. I find it very good and nicely variating. I rarely use explosives. Gaming with it does not feel as explosion filled as it sometimes is with the xcom set. I don't endorse making it a copy of x-com modified.
You already have a pretty nicely working concept Sporb, don't make too drastic changes!

#76 Popek

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:49 PM

Where's an official version so I can tell you what I really think about the Ufo2k weapon set. Before I leave, I want to give my full opinion on this, simply because I just don't like this set. Why? It's so variated, you can't balance it, period.


sorry if I find that particular statement rather ignorant and perhaps biased. Anything can be balanced, but it's not going to happen overnight. After nearly every game involving the ufo2k set me and Bambuz discuss everything from TU's to weapon/ammo weight, to damage, fire rates, etc.. and the purposes and strategies that can be applied.

most successfully I must say are the modifications we've been playing with to the Heavy Laser/Heavy Plasma
and I don't agree that any of the laser weapons should be cut at this point as each variation has a solid purpose.

Laser Pistol - short range/ can carry item in 2nd hand without penalty
Laser Rifle - All around versatile and dependable weapon
Laser Sniper Rifle - Long Distance precision
Heavy Laser - Medium/Short range a very dangerous weapon. Also great for clearing pathways for other units.
And the weight modifications make it rather interesting in gameplay I think.


Sporb also you mentioned the pulse cannon. Currently isn't that the only weapon that has any form of effective stun capabilities? oh wait, nevermind thats the fusion launcher... carry on. yeah that gun isn't too effective.

#77 Popek

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Posted 21 August 2007 - 06:54 PM

I have played lots of games with the ufo2000 weaponset. I find it very good and nicely variating. I rarely use explosives. Gaming with it does not feel as explosion filled as it sometimes is with the xcom set. I don't endorse making it a copy of x-com modified.
You already have a pretty nicely working concept Sporb, don't make too drastic changes!



quoted for truths :D

#78 Sporb

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 01:39 AM

Right, since you guys seem to like the various weapons ive removed, ive backtracked. Ill still need to remove some guns however since there simply isnt enough space on the human sheet for medical gear.

So i ask you all. Which weapon would you not miss, i need to remove 2.

#79 bamb

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 09:44 AM

One can also rearrange stuff: :)

Posted Image

Maybe it gets too incoherent then though. At least the multi launcher and its ammo can be placed vertically as well as the 40 mm grenade launcher's ammo to save space.

I'd remove the AR66 if removal was necessary, the other gun is very hard to decide... Maybe the other smoke grenade? I don't know. I don't use the normal pistol, silver talon or shotgun that much, bringing a sectoid is going to cost so much anyway and not giving him a decent weapon makes the investment not worth it. If all guns were more expensive (or guys cheaper), maybe then the worse ones would be used more? We play with 10k points.

Edited by bamb, 22 August 2007 - 09:46 AM.


#80 Popek

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 10:27 AM

im lookin at the human sheet and wondering "how big is all this medical gear!?"

definitely one of the Assault rifles. I believe if a case was made for the AR66 to pack ar55 rounds, and it retained it's grenade capabilities it would be the choice to keep, but not for price. Vice versa, the ar55 is a good inexpensive weapon, with high enough rate of fire you can keep enemies morale down. But yes, one of those two.

edit: didn't refresh and read bambuz's post - ar66 it is.

If saving space is an issue, is there a possibility of shrinking down the magnum to fit into 1 column. Right now it's bigger than a disposable RPG or laser/plasma rifles. While it's a lot of fun to have a little human holding this massive magnum, i think it could definitely see more action as a sidearm, and save space to boot.

but to answer the question, I wouldn't miss the regular pistol and it's dumdums...

Edited by Popek, 22 August 2007 - 10:36 AM.


#81 Guest_Azrael Strife_*

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 10:50 AM

Where's an official version so I can tell you what I really think about the Ufo2k weapon set. Before I leave, I want to give my full opinion on this, simply because I just don't like this set. Why? It's so variated, you can't balance it, period. The artwork, mind you, is superb, so kudos to Sporb. :) This is the official ufo2k weapon set, and I don't feel that it is representing it's duty to be called balanced.

Just because you guys want to keep weapons, doesn't mean it shouldn't be pruned (you can always have a ufo2k add-on set for those for download). But the official ufo2k set needs to be pruned, a lot, regardless whether you want it to be. I don't play "I just killed your power suit with a bullet" or "Lasers beat plasma all round" or vice versa. And explosions can be the worst part about balancing if you're not careful. There is a reason why the explosion range was dumbed down from 7 to 5 in xcom modified of the original, it's a huge explosion. Explosion radius 3 may sound small, but let me tell you something, it's not. Charging extra in cost isn't always the key to balancing, it's everything. And I'd suggest looking at Xcom modified as a reference, if not copying some features. There is nothing wrong with copy pasting those stats, they're well balanced. And consider this, those who don't have Xcom probably don't want to be confused with so many damn weapon variations, they have enough trouble with over 2 sets.

This is why I prefer playing Xcom Modified over Original. It's not because it has extra things in it. It's not because it makes certain weapons weaker. But it's balanced. All weapons have a purpose. Bullets are weak and cheap. Small Launcher is 500 and not 100 cost like the rocket launcher because it's ammo isn't 300 a piece. Lasers are weaker than plasma, but get the job done just about right with their low cost proficiency. Plasma rifles are more expensive than Heavy Plasmas because they are a snap/auto shot master. Heavy Plasma will guarantee a single hit (aimed) but will also guarantee that any armored unit will either be injured or killed. Let me tell you a story about it's snap shot, it is possible to beat your opponent 1vs4 with that thing. How so? My enemy can't hit me so well when injured (or none at all dead). I will end the list here, but maybe by now all of you understand the point I'm making.

I'll continue my point once I can get my hands on the official release from Sporb. I'm just going to be truthful about pruning, not sentimental. And like I said before, if you want those extra weapons, include them into a different weapon category, they don't have to be lost.


Seconded, might be ignorant and biased (whatever all that means in this case...), but an opinion is an opinion and I share Kratos's, the set simply has too many weapons for my taste.

#82 Kratos

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 03:49 PM

Where's an official version so I can tell you what I really think about the Ufo2k weapon set. Before I leave, I want to give my full opinion on this, simply because I just don't like this set. Why? It's so variated, you can't balance it, period.


sorry if I find that particular statement rather ignorant and perhaps biased. Anything can be balanced, but it's not going to happen overnight. After nearly every game involving the ufo2k set me and Bambuz discuss everything from TU's to weapon/ammo weight, to damage, fire rates, etc.. and the purposes and strategies that can be applied.

most successfully I must say are the modifications we've been playing with to the Heavy Laser/Heavy Plasma
and I don't agree that any of the laser weapons should be cut at this point as each variation has a solid purpose.

I don't care if you might find it ignorant or biased (not that I can see where it's biased when I suggested to keep the extra weapons under a different category). We shouldn't take a year to keep modifying this set to balance it, it's the main set! Truthfully, it's a waste of time, there are more important things to do.

I might find the following of your statements ignorant or biased as well:

hmmm it's clear i'm not a big fan of pruning away items, instead choosing to modify them so they have a valuable place in the scheme.

Too idealistic...and even if this were possible, there is no reason why we can't make a separate sheet for these to keep it simple for other people.

Heavy Laser - Medium/Short range a very dangerous weapon. Also great for clearing pathways for other units.
And the weight modifications make it rather interesting in gameplay I think.

Last time I checked (with an official release with the beta), the Heavy Laser serves as a dumbed down version of the Laser Rifle with an addition of 5 measly damage:

- Same auto shot with 54% TU usage rather than 36%
- Same snap shot with 20% less accuracy
- Same aimed shot with 10% more TU usage
- +125 cost

Please tell me where you find +8 weight, along with these statistics, that makes gameplay more interesting...

If you look at the Heavy Laser in xcom modified (or even xcom original for that matter), you will see it is pretty much classified as a sniper tool with more effective damage than the Laser Rifle. This is where the idea to balancing the Heavy Plasma in xcom modified began.... Makes more sense to just give the Heavy Laser the Laser Sniper Rifle stats instead of finding an in-between use of the Heavy Laser and Laser Sniper Rifle, they're the same thing.

----------

Edited by Kratos, 22 August 2007 - 03:52 PM.


#83 Popek

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 04:12 PM

Please tell me where you find +8 weight, along with these statistics, that makes gameplay more interesting...

If you look at the Heavy Laser in xcom modified (or even xcom original for that matter), you will see it is pretty much classified as a sniper tool with more effective damage than the Laser Rifle. This is where the idea to balancing the Heavy Plasma in xcom modified began.... Makes more sense to just give the Heavy Laser the Laser Sniper Rifle stats instead of finding an in-between use of the Heavy Laser and Laser Sniper Rifle, they're the same thing.

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in the ufo2k weapons concept discussion thread

http://www.xcomufo.c...h...7296&st=350
we've put considerable time and effort debating and discussion making the heavy laser/plasma guns have a different purpose. We managed to establish the best TU/per shot ratio with the heavy variants, at the cost of extreme weight (need to modify your stats to carry them). They are not sniper weapons, aimed/snap shots can be made but they are penalized due to the idea of it being a cumbersome weapon. Though they do work great as a tool for clearing a path for a sniper to get his shot in.

our choices and discussions are based on far more than looking at the xcom/xcom modified sets. We consider the likely hood of other players abusing the weapon, the value and purpose between the other weapons in the same price range, statistics, wall damage, area damage, etc...

bambuz even went through the trouble to spreadsheet all the information of the guns to compare. which we acknowledge isn't a tell all, but it does bring up valuable points. We play the set heavily, on a variety of terrain and scenarios.

This reminds me, the latest version we're using we messed up the TU usage for the heavy plasma :P

it's just a little discouraging when those who announce they rarely (if at all) even play with the weapon set want to make it more like the another set because thats what they are familiar with. Not all of the same strategies and tactics don't transfer between the sets easily. I learned the hard way. :(

Edited by Popek, 22 August 2007 - 04:17 PM.


#84 Kratos

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 04:51 PM

in the ufo2k weapons concept discussion thread

http://www.xcomufo.c...h...7296&st=350
we've put considerable time and effort debating and discussion making the heavy laser/plasma guns have a different purpose. We managed to establish the best TU/per shot ratio with the heavy variants, at the cost of extreme weight (need to modify your stats to carry them). They are not sniper weapons, aimed/snap shots can be made but they are penalized due to the idea of it being a cumbersome weapon. Though they do work great as a tool for clearing a path for a sniper to get his shot in.


It's not that they are not much stronger, it's that they are LESS ACCURATE or USE MORE TIMEPOINTS PER SHOT.

This conclusion has no merit for a balance...it doesn't defend any game balance at all, just real life...in my opinion, you wasted your time debating such a thing, unless you were trying to give a lesson in physics.

it's just a little discouraging when those who announce they rarely (if at all) even play with the weapon set want to make it more like the another set because thats what they are familiar with. Not all of the same strategies and tactics don't transfer between the sets easily. I learned the hard way. :(

It's even more discouraging when those who like to relentlessly defend something not valid....

#85 Sporb

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 05:55 PM

I did think this sort of thing out you know, which is why a previous single sheet of weapons is still made avaliable to use (ufo2k weapons Classic set) and why im in the middle of developing a much smaller set for those who are scared of variety (Stats are based on what I think the stats should be not what Xcom sets say they should be). Both will be complete and ready for use by the next release. in fact - here is the Beta version: its very very beta but you can see what the weapons are and such. Name is working title for now.

The main reason the ufo2k weaponset is so large and variable is because its extremely hard avoiding just replicating the Xcom weapons. Basically all the other weaponsets avaliable bar a few are just wanked up Xcom weapons. I could argue that we might as well not even bother with ANY new weaponsets at all since itd be simple just to replace the xcom images and call it the official set. Most players ive played with have enjoyed the wide array of selectable weapons over the Xcom weapons simply because they like shooting things or, on a tactical note, it allows the to further define specific roles within the game itself. With the ufo2k set, a Sniper really is a sniper, he generally doesnt have many hots per round but they are super accurate and he generally cannot defend himself up close because of the fire-rate of his weapon. He is no longer just some chump with a plasma rifle sitting in a building waiting to reaction shot you when you try to bust his door down while he picks your men off from afar, he is voulnerable unless he is guarded.

Edited by Sporb, 22 August 2007 - 06:10 PM.


#86 bamb

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Posted 22 August 2007 - 07:41 PM

Kratos, in the official release (1071 and 1079) the heavy laser as well as plasma blaster were useless. Just like you said, they had only a little more damage and were otherwise worse than their lighter companions.

Sporb, Pope and I changed them so they are useful again (with a different role) in the beta version. We have played a lot with that version. You can get it here.

I don't understand what's the problem here? Read carefully what I wrote please.

#87 Popek

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 01:02 AM

sporb, i'd love to match up against you sometime.

#88 Hobbes

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 09:09 AM

This is what I think of the UFO2K weaponset so far:

Too many sheets/weapons/overall variety.

I did think this sort of thing out you know which is why a previous single sheet of weapons is still made avaliable to use (ufo2k weapons Classic set) and why im in the middle of developing a much smaller set for those who are scared of variety


*So now, besides having already 5 something sheets to choose from there will be yet another set, this Weapons Competition?
*Scared of variety? Let me reword that: desiring more playability

Both will be complete and ready for use by the next release.



*So, besides having to finish/balance the UFO2K there will still be a need to complete those as well. Any timeframe to complete them? Or we just wait for the next sheet to solve the problems presented meanwhile with the current sets?

The main reason the ufo2k weaponset is so large and variable is because its extremely hard avoiding st replicating the Xcom weapons.


*Wrong. The reason why the UFO2K weaponset is so large and variable is because you are designing them based on your own personal tastes/gaming experience: (wouldn't it be cool to have a Chainsaw! or a Silver Talon to rule over all other guns!). It doesn't matter if it makes any sense: all hail variety!

Most players ive played with have enjoyed the wide array of selectable weapons over the Xcom weapons simply because they like shooting things or, on a tactical note, it allows the to further define specific roles within the game itself.


*And the Modified X-COM weaponset does not allow this? Let's use your Sniper example to answer:

With the ufo2k set, a Sniper really is a sniper, he generally doesnt have many hots per round but they are super accurate and he generally cannot defend himself up close because of the fire-rate of his weapon.


*Let's see, we have both the Heavy Plasma and the Heavy Laser on the Modified weaponset. And both can be used in close range, just like UFO2000 Sniper weapons do.

He is no longer just some chump with a plasma rifle sitting in a building waiting to reaction shot you when you try to bust his door down while he picks your men off from afar, he is voulnerable unless he is guarded.


*What's the point here? That the 'chump with the plasma rifle' has to be guarded? Well, that's true, but from flanking attacks, not because its weapon is useless at close range, which is not a valid point like stated above
*Unless the issue is the Plasma Rifle being used as a sniper weapon. Well, for some reason it costs a lot more than a Heavy Plasma/Laser: you pay for it being a versatile weapon.

(Stats are based on what I think the stats should be not what Xcom sets say they should be).

Basically all the other weaponsets avaliable bar a few are just wanked up Xcom weapons.



*If you are refering to the Modified weaponset as wanked up Xcom weapons, then I'd say that the set was created by players (Gassa, Twilight Owl, etc.) that would beat the heck out anyone still playing this game and that the stats reflect that. It took a lot of thinking/courage to scale down the Heavy Plasma to a sniper weapon, as an example. They basically took the X-COM set and tought to make it suitable for multiplayer.

I could argue that we might as well not even bother with ANY new weaponsets at all since itd be simple just to replace the xcom images and call it the official set.


*I'd propose exactly that: replace the images on the Modified X-COM weaponset with those on the UFO2000 set (or any images someone would be willing to design) and call it the official set, keeping the current Modified stats (which now barely resemble the original X-COM stats anyhow) and without adding extra weapons. Then you could add extensions to it, like there is now for those who like variety. I think it's playability would increase a bunch, but hey, i might just be scared of variety :)

#89 Popek

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 02:08 PM

so why can't those who enjoy xcom/xcom modified set just play that? aside from the graphics copyright issue, it's pretty clear they don't want to play with any other weapons.

With the ufo2k set, a Sniper really is a sniper, he generally doesnt have many hots per round but they are super accurate and he generally cannot defend himself up close because of the fire-rate of his weapon.


*Let's see, we have both the Heavy Plasma and the Heavy Laser on the Modified weaponset. And both can be used in close range, just like UFO2000 Sniper weapons do.


i think you misread what sporb said regarding the ufo2k sniper rifles. They AREN'T useful at close range, I know many situations have occured where i would of traded it for a rifle/heavy version for this exact reason.

I'd say that the set was created by players (Gassa, Twilight Owl, etc.) that would beat the heck out anyone still playing this game and that the stats reflect that.


this point confuses me. it reminds me of Quake duel players who are godlike on the standard maps because they know every trick and how to maximize their kills in familiar territory. Mentioning top ranking players who made adaptations the weapon set to suit their playing style does not a solid argument make. I don't doubt however they put a lot of time considering the changes they made to the weapon set, and playtesting for balance.

They played with that set, and they balanced it. We play with the ufo2k set very often, and the set is very well balanced, but not complete yet. I think Sporb has come a long way in making a set that so many seasoned players (some of the dev team included) literally refuse to play. The variety IS it's strong point, though I agree the 5 weaponsheets is a bit much. This has clearly been done because ,yes, there are those scared of variety and something a little different from the norm they are used to. This is very evident from reading through this thread in particular, and I'm afraid it's spiraled a bit out of control at this point on both sides of the debate.

Sporb: The set currently plays great, I've had some fantastic matches with it, full of surprises. I could probably provide a good argument for keeping every weapon thats currently in the set, but yes a little trimming probably wont hurt and will make the set more accessible. A "ufo2k- Xcom Stats" version could replace the Classic,Human Only, Alien Only sets
and then you'd be down to 3 sheets. This would hopefully appease those who want to play with the same set. But keep the double sheet of weapons. If players want to play human/alien only, they can agree before the match. This proposal, while not my first choice, might be a good middle ground for the two camps of players who won't budge as we're all stuck in our ways too firmly.

Edited by Popek, 23 August 2007 - 02:10 PM.


#90 Hobbes

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 03:16 PM

so why can't those who enjoy xcom/xcom modified set just play that? aside from the graphics copyright issue, it's pretty clear they don't want to play with any other weapons.


Give me a simple and balanced weaponset and I'll play with it. I've stopped using the UFO2K set because I got tired of the endless updates/add-ons, plus I disagree with the overall logic of trying to set it to force more reaction tactics instead of scout/sniping.

With the ufo2k set, a Sniper really is a sniper, he generally doesnt have many hots per round but they are super accurate and he generally cannot defend himself up close because of the fire-rate of his weapon.


*Let's see, we have both the Heavy Plasma and the Heavy Laser on the Modified weaponset. And both can be used in close range, just like UFO2000 Sniper weapons do.


i think you misread what sporb said regarding the ufo2k sniper rifles. They AREN'T useful at close range, I know many situations have occured where i would of traded it for a rifle/heavy version for this exact reason.


A weapon that can fire 3 snapshots with 61% snap accuracy and a power of 85 isn't useful at close range? Come on, auto fire is the best to have at close range but snipers aren't defenseless. It can be even better than the Shotgun (3 shots/63 acc snap/67 power) in power, although it has the double of the cost.

I'd say that the set was created by players (Gassa, Twilight Owl, etc.) that would beat the heck out anyone still playing this game and that the stats reflect that.


this point confuses me. it reminds me of Quake duel players who are godlike on the standard maps because they know every trick and how to maximize their kills in familiar territory. Mentioning top ranking players who made adaptations the weapon set to suit their playing style does not a solid argument make. I don't doubt however they put a lot of time considering the changes they made to the weapon set, and playtesting for balance.


Wrong choice of words/argument in my part then. The point I was trying to make (and which you stated) was that there was a lot of time/experience/playtesting/etc. placed upon the Modified weaponset. And then, when the UFO2000 weaponset gets designed, all of it is ignored because the emphasis is making a set completely different from X-COM, not only in graphics but also in gameplay.

They played with that set, and they balanced it. We play with the ufo2k set very often, and the set is very well balanced, but not complete yet. I think Sporb has come a long way in making a set that so many seasoned players (some of the dev team included) literally refuse to play. The variety IS it's strong point, though I agree the 5 weaponsheets is a bit much. This has clearly been done because ,yes, there are those scared of variety and something a little different from the norm they are used to.


If the issue here is variety, then doesn't the UFO2K set include more general use weapons inclined towards the Modified stats like the Laser/Plasma Rifles that can have multiple uses? If the answer is because players would tend to use more those weapons, I'd say that's only a matter of adjusting the costs.

Well, probably because variety IS the UFO2000 set's major weak point as well: trying to balance this set is one of the main reasons for the constant changes. And what do you get in terms of numbers for all that variety? Not much, considering the Classic UFO2K set:
- 4 types of hand to hand weapons (2 in Modified, 1 of them stun).
- 1 Shotgun, 1 Sniper Rifle, 1 supersized Pistol.
- 1 extra Laser and Plasma weapon
- 1 Grenade Launcher
- Multi Missile Launcher

And, the more you add, the more difficult it gets to balance everything. So, if you ask me, variety and its importance are largely overrated here.

#91 Kratos

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 04:03 PM

I would like to see a few more stun options show up. shame stun damage has to break under armour currently.

Don't post this here, it's irrelevant and seriously pisses me off when I start seeing this all over the forums. I've been seeing you AND bamb do this, and I'm telling you both to stop. I have been letting this go ever since I came back from being complete absence to hope it will just clear itself up, but I guess not.

If you hate this feature so much, make it useful and send it to the bugtracker, alternatively use our suggestion forum. We don't have these for nothing, and most definitely nobody wants to dig this junk up in the wrong area, nor do anyone talking in this thread needs to see that.

You post this again and I will outright delete it, understand? You respond to this, I will delete your post, understand?

#92 Popek

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 04:18 PM

I'm responding to this despite the warning because I feel suggesting stun options for the ufo2000 set in the "ufo2000 weapon set upgrades" thread is perfectly relevant.
Especially considering the set includes several stun options.

Are you saying we should have two seperate threads, one for suggesting new weapons to the set and one for removing them from the same set?

I apologize if I piss you off, but deleting posts that are relevant and do not include any personal attacks does not a moderator make.

#93 Kratos

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 04:27 PM

I'm responding to this despite the warning because I feel suggesting stun options for the ufo2000 set in the "ufo2000 weapon set upgrades" thread is perfectly relevant.
Especially considering the set includes several stun options.

I don't care what you feel. I am telling you this is a programming feature, and it is completely useless to be here. I don't give a f*** that you think that it should be here just because you want it added. I told you it is not suppose to be.

#94 Guest_Azrael Strife_*

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 04:48 PM

This discussion is pointless.

Since this is the official UFO2000 set, it should be up to the developers to decide upon its contents, if other people enjoy it so much the way it is right now, an alternate weaponset can be created.

For an official weaponset, it's way too large right now, some people enjoy variety but others enjoy tactics a heck lot more (myself included, I'm one of those scared of variety).

As for the stun issue, as Kratos said it has absolutely no place in this thread, why? very simple, as he pointed out, it's a programming feature, and not a weaponset-specific feature, so cut it out and stay on topic. If you feel the stun damage is so lousy right now, then open up a new thread and start discussing, then after a reasonable time has passed and the topic has been discussed enough for a decent idea to come up, open a new issue in the bugtracker so programmers can get to it. Just dropping an issue in the middle of a discussion will not bear any positive results, there is a time and place for things, and this is not the place for that and not the time to change it yet.

#95 Hobbes

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 05:23 PM

I'm responding to this despite the warning because I feel suggesting stun options for the ufo2000 set in the "ufo2000 weapon set upgrades" thread is perfectly relevant.
Especially considering the set includes several stun options.

I don't care what you feel. I am telling you this is a programming feature, and it is completely useless to be here. I don't give a f*** that you think that it should be here just because you want it added. I told you it is not suppose to be.


Whoa.....OK let's all take a deep breath and cool things down here a bit. I didn't want for my replies here to take the discussion to this level but things happen so I do apologize if I was out of line in some of my posts.

We need to achieve some sort of compromise regarding this issue:

1) Variety is good? Yes. Variety is good. There's a point there, let's all agree on that.
2) Some people are scared of variety? No. We are not scared, however we are quite sensitive to someone dismissing our comments (and there is a rational point to them) to something irrational such as fear.

The whole point of having an official weaponset is to have a set that we all can enjoy. There's already TONS of new weapons' images made by Sporb: there's absolutely no logical reason (only our own selfish egos) that we can't use this material to accomodate for everyone's wishes.

I'll restate what I've said before: let's use the Modified X-COM and the Classic UFO2000 weaponsets stats and merge them into a single one, without using the X-COM graphics (which is what we need to worry concerning copyright). Then we can have all matter of additional weaponsets: Human, Alien, etc.

This raises 3 issues, which are all valid:
1) Difference between conventional weapons vs. Laser/Plasma on the Modified X-COM weaponset. My answer: keep the difference to differenciate between the 3 types (Conventional - cheap, low power, limited ammo; Laser - medium power and cost, unlimited ammo; Plasma - expensive, high power, limited ammo). And this is variety - people complain about the low power of the conventional weapons but the truth is that they allow for larger/better armored squads to be deployed in contrast with only bringing lasers/plasmas. I've used over and over squads only equipped with bullets and it's not hard to win but most people assume bigger is better.

2) Scout/Sniping. I say it's close to impossible to try to reduce this by weapons design, by downgrading the Plasma/Laser rifles or whatever means. The UFO2000 set never made me change my tactics regarding this. There are other ways to reduce this, such as light level and, more important, maps. I'd also say to have a look at the new terrain that is being developed: Scout/Sniping can work there but the building design will strongly place limits on it.

3) Explosives. The current bane of all weaponsets. The less of them, the better, until HE block is implemented.

If anyone has a better idea than this to reach a compromise, then let's hear it. And if YOU (meaning all of us) are not interested in reaching a compromise and choose to continue to do things your way, then why am I wasting my time with all of this?

Edited by Hobbes, 23 August 2007 - 06:19 PM.


#96 Sporb

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 05:42 PM

you know what? lets just forget the whole thing shall we. There will henceforth no longer be a ufo2k weaponset. I will have somone remove it from the distribution shortly.

Edited by Sporb, 23 August 2007 - 05:45 PM.


#97 Guest_Azrael Strife_*

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 05:47 PM

That's hardly a solution, imo...

#98 bamb

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 07:20 PM

Hobbes has good analysis.
I want to talk on the macro-level.
Maybe there should be two distinct sets. This is my constructive approach:

1) "Mega-set" which could have lots of weapons, two sheets full of stuff. Chainsaw, sword, big handgun, sniper rifle... Like the ufo2k full set now.

2) "Essential-set" Then there could be another set, say, with completely different graphics and different names of weapons so that development and balancing can be done indepently from the megaset and players are still not confused, that could be based stat-wise on the modified xcom set that is held by many as well balanced. This could be the "essential", "balance" or "competition" set?

I'll leave it to sporb and others to choose the graphics and weapons, but it would be important that the sets would have NO overlap in exact weapon names or graphics since then updates in one would effect the other, or similar looking weapons would behave differently in different sets which would be bad game design and not user friendly.

Does my idea have merit?
I think both have their own place, variation is fun sometimes but it's not fun always. Also big weaponsets are harder and take longer to balance, as well as take longer to learn.

#99 Blood Angel

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Posted 23 August 2007 - 07:36 PM

Which rule said there could only be one variety of the UFO2K weaponset? Have a variety of sets to suit a variety of players. Simple.

#100 bamb

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Posted 24 August 2007 - 06:21 AM

It's unintuitive, confusing and requires remembering of special rules, if the same weapon behaves differently in different weapon sets. You always get surprises like "oh, last time I played, this weapon did xxx, why doesn't it do it anymore?" (yes, you learn after you have played many times, but why make it so when the mistake can be avoided?) or "darn, I didn't remember weapon yyy was that crappy in this set", which could happen to even somewhat experienced players. That's why I support separate sets. (Same as with map tiles - the same tile should behave similarly in all terrains.) WYSIWYG - what you see is what you get.

Though, of course, if the weapon set differences are minor, you save re-equipping your whole squad when switching sets, which would reduce set switching threshold. (Add to the fact the prematch screen's memory hogging which leads to game crashes later if you spend a lot of time there.)

I also will discuss later the issues raised by Hobbes.