55 replies to this topic

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Yeah, a Laser Hovertank would be sweet. Exellent mobility combined with good strenght and unlimited ammo, a match(sp?) made in heaven, so to speak...

Actually, didn't the original plasma hovertank have unlimited ammo? Is this going to change? I hope so.

[j'ordos]

They have 100 ammunition, which in practise meant as good as unlimited.

[miceless]

Yeah, i dont think i ever ran out of ammo on either of those tanks.

I wonder what the plan is on that front for Xenocide.

[warhamster]

Heck, the hoover tanks didn't even consume elerium. Something needs to be done about that, i think. my base has 10 tanks. and for some funny reason, my stores don't ever seem to get full.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Heck, the hoover tanks didn't even consume elerium. Something needs to be done about that, i think. my base has 10 tanks. and for some funny reason, my stores don't ever seem to get full.

Hoover makes tanks now? Sorry, just having a little fun at your expense.

Anyway, we can't make the plasma cannons on tanks consume too much elerium, or nobody will use them!


I thought that the elerium went into making a reactor for the chassis only a little bit of elerium would need to be used for the plasma turret. Maby we could say that due to the fact that the hovertank is a human invention, we came up with a way to make them self contained with the elerium only needing to be refilled every 2 years? Actually that's not a real solution.

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 09 August 2003 - 03:47 PM.

[warhamster]

I can imagine it now... a vaccum cleaner with an anti-grav unit. hehe.

Well, I think the plasma hoover tanks should consume at least 1 elerium per mission. this is for ammo.

[miceless]

I say they use up some Elerium, the hand held plasmas do in teh clips.

And why shouldnt we have hover hoovers? Makes them easier to drag around. Maybe they can even have AI and do the hoovering for you?

[Breunor]

I agree that all plasma tech requires elerium for ammo. If a plasma pistol needs it, so should a plasma tank.

[Jesus Escariut]

its a hover tank... shouldnt elerium be used up on every mission if they shoot or not, if you move that tank around as just a scout, thats burning fuel, plus its running that cool little shower lookin hover image, so maybe for every 10 shots you factor in .5 elerium, and every 250 meters of movement is .5 elerium... its nothing insane

[Cpl. Facehugger]

And then it shoots and eats your elerium faster than an incredibly obease person can eat a big mac.

If the plasma tank takes elerium when fired and when it moves, factor in what your avenger needs to run, and for manufacturing blaster bombs and other ordanance and you would probably be deep in elerium debt!

I think that the hovertanks should stay the way they are. I mean, sure its unrealistic, but it helped balance the game. It gave the humans a viable counter to the cyberdisc. Otherwise, damn cyberdiscs had so much armor that they felt more like I was tackling a ufo instead of a terror weapon.

[mikker]

for elerium: just give the engineer the stuff on how to make elerium 115 of unoplutonium. It would be balanced, as it would be heck of alot more ekspensive, then steal it on the battleground.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

for elerium: just give the engineer the stuff on how to make elerium 115 of unoplutonium. It would be balanced, as it would be heck of alot more ekspensive, then steal it on the battleground.

Mikker that is the best idea i've ever heard! It would solve the problem of not having enough elerium while being balanced! I actually think that the ctd should look at it and come up with an reason for it. It would allow xcom to have elerium if the ship's power source(s) is destroyed. Interceptor had synthetic elerium, why can't xenocide? Of course it would have to take a while to get the tech to do it.

[miceless]

Allowing users to manufacture elerium would be a bad idea. Firstly its not true to the original and secondly it would modify the way the game works.

The original depended on the fact that you had to aquire Elerium from the aliens, they used it as a control. Allowing users to manufacture a steady stream of it, however controlled, would ruin that idea.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Don't be so sure, it could take 1,000,000 dollars for every 10 units of elerium.
Lastly, what happens if a player is unlucky and all of his shot down ufos' power sources are destroyed?

In the gold edition, iirc the only you could get elerium was from ufo power sources.
I think that allowing limited synthesization of elerium would allow unlucky players to advance, while allowing players to get that little bit of elerium to fly an avenger after that battleship.

Edit: Do we really want to be limited to just what the original game had? Isn't this what the laboratory is for??

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 12 August 2003 - 09:26 AM.

[miceless]

Players who get ufos with no intact power sources are not just unlucky, they are also dumb. They shouldnt be shooting them all down if they want intact ones.

And I dont think that being able to synthesise it would be a good idea, no matter what. People could just set up money making centres and then use that to make elerium. The fact that you can only get it from alien ships is good. I think the same should have been true about Alien Alloys and possibly more.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Well, we both have our own opinions, but in my defense, sometimes (actually alot of times for me) the landed ufos take off before my skyranger can get there. And when I do get one that landed, the elerium is never enough to even heat the seats in my avenger

[miceless]

Well, thats all about planning ahead and getting the skyranger there quicker. Supply Ships are the best ones for that.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

You can't plan ahead except with supply runs. And you can't really make the skyranger go faster, I click as fast as I can... -_- , and supply ships, whenever I down them with plasma guns, their powersources always seem to be gone. So my only real method of elerium of aqusition is attacking supply ships once theyve landed at the base.

On a related note, are we going to make it so that if you attack a landed supply ship (at an alien base) will the alien base also be on the same map? Makes sense.

[j'ordos]

I doubt letting the player manufacture Elerium will have very much use, as 1) it should be expensive, and 2) I have had several times I was low on elerium, and had to postpone blaster bombs production, but I have never had no elerium at all. But I don't really mind if it's possible to produce it yourself, as long as it costs prohibitive amounts of cash/time.

[Jesus Escariut]

if you allow 3 alien bases to setup you will have more elerium then you know what to do with, just keep picking off the supply ships.

I dont think you should be able to make elerium, it makes the game better that you have to manage your reasources and you cant just say okay im gonna put fusion ball launchers on everything, and build 90 avengers and have them patrol nonstop with 1000 soldiers each one has a blaster launcher.... (yea i know by the end of the game you have enough to do this)

[mikker]

k, i get the points. You could instead have an event where, if long enough in the game, and you are doing terrible bad, you get like 30 units of elerium.

Myself, i have never run out of elerium. I cheat so i can't lose, and therefore can't spill elerium. I don't use avengers and firestorms so much so thats no biggie. I don't produce much stuff made of it, and when i do i get it free .

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Am I the only one who constantly runs out of that magic element? Of course, if unlike the ce/gold edition, we make elerium found in bases, then I suppose we wouldn't even need to make elerium.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

But I still perfer raiding bases to raiding supply ships. Its something about those jars in that little area. In a base it is better because the alien food jars are more spread out.

It makes sense for alien bases to have elerium in them right?

[j'ordos]

I would think so, yes. After all, they're ment to resupply their own UFO's their, maybe even manufacture ammo?

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

I think finding elerium in the base is a valid idea. I think it was that way in either dos or ps1 versions...I vaguely remember it being in the control center, so if you nuked it rather than killing all the aliens, you didn't get any.

If the 'strategic raid' idea is implemented, units should be able to pick up elerium in the base (maybe in a specific room).

-The Captain

[miceless]

Being able to find elerium in bases should definitely be implemented. Wasnt there a bug once that you got millions of elerium sometimes when you raided a base?

In fact, arent there a couple of power sources in bases in one of the upstairs rooms? They should hav elerium in them.

EDIT: Also, the amount of elerium you find should be more random. How come the power sources always had 50 in? Does it never get used up? If so, why not just use one?

Edited by miceless, 12 August 2003 - 11:42 PM.

[Breunor]

Even if the fuel was unlimited, a power source can only produce so much power, and the larger ships require more than what 1 provides I guess. I agree that having it be a little less than 50 and somewhat random makes very good sense. You could balance that loss of elerium by having some available in the earth bases. I'd say the ufos are built on Mars where most of the elerium is kept (as it's the most secure spot), and elerium is sent on the supply ships. So you'd still get the most from the supply ship, but could also get some from a base you find.

[miceless]

Agreed. But after a long trip from Mars, you might expect some of the ships to be running low on fuel, so that even if it was landed you might only get ten (say) elerium.

Supply ships would presumably have to carry spare Elerium, so they might have hundreds on board. Would have to be careful not to unbalance there though.

[Jesus Escariut]

thats my shocked look, what do u mean u dont get elerium from bases, i dont get a lot (only 100 elerium) but i still get some and im pretty sure i have the CE edition... i do remember getting a lot more in dos though... i think 200... but then agian *sniffle* i remember a lot of nice things about dos... better sounds

[Cpl. Facehugger]

You sure, whenever I raid a base, I never find that elusive element.
But, alien bases are meant to resupply alien ships, so it would make sense if they had vast stockpiles of elerium on hand.

Edit: You're right, the sounds were much better, if not as varied. Actually the snakeman (I think) death sound is the same as the old one. But the new ones are not nearly as scary. A screech like the old one, when compared to the weak new doughy one. Which will you choose for atmosphere?

Lastly, I hope the sound department keeps up the great work, and comes up with very cool death sounds.

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 13 August 2003 - 08:25 PM.

[Extralucas]

About using Elerium by Tanks (My concpet):

Power Source is place where Elerium 115 is converted to energy. With 99% efficency. Then, the Elerium crystal, gets burned. But when we will place elerium to smaller, less expensive unit (ever seen Power Source sticked to Fly Suit?) which will convert energy with less efficency. Then Elerium may survive the process. That's why fly suit doesn't acclerate your soldiers to 1000 mp/h. Same way work Plasma Beam which generates plasma and quickly sends it towards target. It could use same fire as laser (from UFO2000) but it would mean burning down Elerium units. More powersources means more energy and faster Elerium flow, less powersources mean less energy, and worse quality but slower elerium flow, or even 'unlimited' use of energy.

Edit: If Elerium will be used for too long time, even evasive way, it gonna burn anyway, so for one battle Hover Tank should have limited ammo, but in total it won't need recharging with new Elerium.

Edited by Extralucas, 18 September 2003 - 01:19 PM.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Ehh? Are you saying that small units would not use elerium at a constant rate? Like the original's hovertanks? If so, than I agree with you.

[Extralucas]

Err... I mean that they should have limited ammo but don't need recharging with new Elerium.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Yeah, that is what I was trying to say. So, I agree with you 200%

[fux0r666]

The rate of usage would depend on the way that the powerplants work. If it was hooked up to a battery it would not have to be functioning all of the time...

If the powerplant converts almost all elerium mass into energy you could run an entire city off of a piece of elerium the size of a pencil for a week.

If the flying suits require elerium it makes sense that the hover tanks should... but I don't think that it's necessary.

I don't think you should be able to get elerium other than ways perscribed by the original game. A large part of the gameplay was attaining resources and managing them effectively. If you blew all your elerium and had to resort to using personal armour and lasers, tough shizzat. Having failure possible would make the importance and therefor the stress/excitement of managing your stores more prevailant.

[Extralucas]

If the powerplant converts almost all elerium mass into energy you could run an entire city off of a piece of elerium the size of a pencil for a week.

But those are waves of pure energy. *POOF* Elerium disappears, wave of energy appears. (I guess)

[fux0r666]

Now you're getting into issues of energy conversion and storage. I think that's unnecessarily deep.

I think by what the original meant by 'antimatter' technology with elerium and all that is that the process is a fusion reaction which can be controlled by reducing/increasing the amount of whatever triggers required by the elerium to become/release/coallesce/conjur antimatter.

[Flaser]

A substitute product could be used by desperate players - the Radiatum-113.

You could manufacture it yourself, but there would be several drawbacks:

-It's radioactive - so you have to build a big facility, and can't be used for all the stuff you used Elerium for.
-It will exponentially decay (should have a half-life of a 2 days)
-It needs Elerium/Xenium-115 to produce

The Elereium in the process is used a catalyst, but it is still obliterated in the ensuing radiation.

So you can get 10-15 times the ammount of Radiatum from your Elerium.
Problems:
-Within 3 days you will have only as much Radiatum as you original ammount of Elerium
-If you put it into crafts you'll have to clean them before once again using Elerium
-You can't manufacture items with Radiatum
-The exception is the Radiatum powered hover/tracked tank which can *only* run with Radiatum. The other exception is the Radiatum powered Low-Profile carrier (only craft dedicated to use Radiatum - it is for suply raids, therefore will see constant use).
-If Radiatum is used on a craft which wasn't designed to use it the crew has an exponentially increasing chance to suffer radiation poisoning (soldiers will get the injured status).

Using Radiatum may seem like a bliss, but as you can see it has many drawbacks - if you want to use it, you have to create it exactly by the time you need it or you're wasting resources.
It is an emergency substiture for Elerium as fuel - but this should only allow you to lauch you crafts one more / couple of more times to get more Elerium.

Edited by Flaser, 12 March 2004 - 01:00 PM.

[Moriarty]

I am absolutely on the side of those who say there should be no way we ever get to produce / artificially and temporarily inflate / magically materialize Xenium. Ever. The concept of having to "steal" xenium from the bad guys to fight them is so integral a part of the game that it cannot be changed.

But speaking of stealing xenium: maybe on later versions you could include a mission type "alien base raid"... xcom agents sneak to a base (perhaps even without using an air transport, so you cannot be shot down), dig a hole over the biggest energy signature detectable, grab the power source(s) and run for their lives...

concerning the usage of Xenium by tanks and flying suits: I think they have to use up some, but perhaps it should be accounted for in fractions of units, and at the end of the mission it is summed up. Has to be balanced so that it is usually a maximum of one unit or two, but then, if you run into a huge battle with several plasma tanks blasting at maximum rate and all your soldiers zipping through the air all the time, it should be noticeable. Another way of bringing a strategic element into the game: If you run low on xenium, you have to walk where the spawns [chryssalids] walk




edited for usage of xcom names. bad me.

Edited by Moriarty, 25 June 2004 - 12:16 PM.

[Khai]

In theory, we should be able to synthesize any element using nuclear chemistry...IE Nuclear reactions, this would be hard and HELLA expensive though.

I think that the problem with getting Elerium isn't that its made up of some common element that we know of, but rather a UNIQUE element (ie unique atom) that we've never found before. Once we found out its proton and electron structure, we could synthesize it however.

I'd leave it up to the game peeps to figure this one out though. It'd be cool to have a way to make one or two elerium per month, or maybe a base building that removes Elerium uptake from units you've already built.

On the otherside, I'm a big fan of less micromanagement. I'd much rather have the Elerium 'upkeep' of a unit paid upfront when you manufacture it. You could say to yourself that it produces enought energy to 'run forever' once you invest some in the start....or whatever, it just reduces micromanagement...and by micro, I mean the bad kind, keeping track of constant nickle and dime Elerium use is not my idea of fun honestly.

[Snakeman]

On the otherside, I'm a big fan of less micromanagement. I'd much rather have the Elerium 'upkeep' of a unit paid upfront when you manufacture it. You could say to yourself that it produces enought energy to 'run forever' once you invest some in the start....or whatever, it just reduces micromanagement...and by micro, I mean the bad kind, keeping track of constant nickle and dime Elerium use is not my idea of fun honestly.

I tend to agree with this when it comes to micromanagement. The old game did this for you in the construction of things requiring elerium. All we had to do was give the manufacturing order...done. This way, just as before, all we have to manage and be sure about is what's in storage.

Besides, the fun should still be in going out and getting it. Part of me still wants to see the ability to fight it out on Mars a little longer, and one way to steer the game partially in this direction is manage the flow of elerium to Earth by aliens in a perceptable decline later in the game (aliens could be slower to reset up bases taken out, supply ships become fewer and far between - but there are still harassment missions by them - infiltration, abduction, retaliation, terror etc.).

This way it could still keep the heat on Earth big time, yet to keep the fights on an even level before taking Cydonia its self, your beginning to manage the flow of most of your elerium from Mars to Earth. I think this would be a logical progression if the Brain on Mars was being stingy with his elerium to his forces (supply ships dropping off). It makes more sense to me strategically that they might do this, especially if the game is set up where the supply ships are still going to be the ones with the most to take with minimal resistance like before. Plus, it'd put a lot of heat on your Mars outposts if they get discovered.

Ship management I feel too here should be taken into account. Ships to defend/attack/raid, and one or two on dedicated supply runs (set it and forget it - only zooming in on them if aliens start to chase them so you can choose to retaliate/evade from the intercept portion) from the Mars base(s).

I like too the thought of performing or being involved in 'reverse' supply missions - that they could shoot you down, and your survivors must fend off the retaliating aliens at your crash site with objectives being to hold them off until you kill them all and/or reinforcements arrive/or man with the repair kits can fix your ship up enough to limp back to base (i.e. reinstating the dust off button to work could be the manifestation of this to conclude the action).

[Khai]

Those are great ideas!

I'd love to have to perform 'raids' on Mars before the big hit, it just makes sense also, it should be a buildup to the final fight over time, not a single easily done knockout blow...like Independence Day...Raiding for Elerium at its source would be awesome fun and would add a ton to the game. I mean, if the Aliens can't take out our will to fight in one strike...why should we be able to? It would make things seem more like war and less like the easy way out..."Oh look, the superior aliens have a single easily abused weakness that will destroy them all"

That would be really interesting to be able to raid the Elerium stockpiles on Mars though, and I like the idea of it getting harder to steal Elerium as the game progresses, surely the Aliens would realize what we're up to and try to prevent it...this might be a reason to allow mimimal and inefficient synthesis.

The idea of getting shot down is an awesome one! The aliens instantly send an assault transport and you have to survive for a certain number of turns before the local regular army can come in to provide backup. It would have to be tough, as the aliens would be ready for trouble...That would be a really fun mission. Of course if you didn't get shot down, or intercepted the incoming assault transport then the crash site would disappear (get transported back to base) and the survivors would return to active/wounded duty.

Eventually a Mars geoscape would be really cool. Really, really really cool. But I imagine that is a ton of work.

[sir_schwick]

I think either Combat Engineers(speciality trooper) or regular troopers with the right equipment should be able to attach an Elerium Leech to a Power Source. After about ten turns the reactor would be drained and Elerium crystls would be formed on a special medium inside the Leech. Then you could leave the battlefield and bombard the impotent UFO from the air, or just go home with all the ill-gotten Elerium.

[Khai]

Being able to order a firestrike onto a downed UFO would be a nice touch. Often I down the buggers but don't want to bother with the cleanup. Why can't we drop a touch of napalm?

[Snakeman]

About the second Geoscape for Mars, I imagine it wouldn't even be needed until later in the game, only after you've gotten that transport that let's you move through the solar system... and only then, not show up until you've made the choice to make a base.

I can't speak on the programming aspects of this though, but the way I was envisioning it was that, if the UFO incursions detected by your radars were spaced out enough, you'd only need whichever Geoscape to load that matters in that moment. Even then the loading could be streamlined in that you can minimize the radar information receieved, such that, if you have HWDs, you may only have to load the relevant Geoscapes if you saw 'Alien Research' (i.e. scouting) or 'Retaliation' missions in that information screen. Only instances where I could see you'd want to manually load one Geoscape over another is to send out patrols between incursions, or to set up bases (and of course initiating the final assault). Essentially you'd only 'go to' whichever locale had direct threats to bases if you were just speeding up time to get something else done. To see something at a glance and know when you'd want to respond.

The radar messages should have 'go tos' built into them not unlike before where only now, its not just centering on the UFO in question, but which Geoscape needs to load to show you what its doing.

I don't doubt that this would be a large programming thing to pull off, but I find it an exciting concept for some future coders with the ambition on similar projects to try to tackle. You could concievably make this more robust with additons/expansions by incorporating more 'Geoscapes' representing other planets and moons in the system. The only easiness to this I can readily identify with though is the texturing needed for these other planets. Thankfully a lot of them are pretty much uniform with the only terribly redeemable features being crevasses, canyons, mountains, or mostly very flat, but the coloring is pretty much uniform.

Anyway, I just find it all interesting from the point of a progressive game where your not just managing your bases, but the flow of information, tech, personnel, ships and fuel. Plus I just like the concept of taking and holding territory that makes you feel as though your making progress in the larger scheme of the game universe. It may even unlock some other mission types or expand on old ones.

But this was my main point about supplies and information as an argument for at least expanding to Mars operations prior to the end. I think the Cydonia or Bust mission shouldn't happen until you've captured alien leaders on Mars first rather than the ones on Earth.

Edited by Snakeman, 31 January 2005 - 05:59 PM.

[Robo Dojo 58]

I think that the problem with getting Elerium isn't that its made up of some common element that we know of, but rather a UNIQUE element (ie unique atom) that we've never found before. Once we found out its proton and electron structure, we could synthesize it however.

It's not that simple. Just because you have carbon, it doesn't mean that you can pump out carbon nanotubes by the ton. Elerium is likely similar in that respect. Even if you can make the raw element, how the heck are you going to process it in any meaningful way? Elerium is so special because the aliens can make it and use it in lots of their tech, while we're left dumbstruck as to how it could even exist. With the scientists so confused, how can they even begin to synthesize Elerium, along with its powerful properties?