34 replies to this topic

[Moriarty]

has there been a discussion on having tanks divided into chassis/armor and turret/weapon (and perhaps propulsion system) so you can choose the combination? and perhaps even create hover gun tanks? if not, perhaps it could be like this:

chassis options:
light (basic model 1 - good scouting tank; faster because of less weight but weak armor)
heavy (basic model 2 - battle model; slower but can take some more damage)
improved (what personal armor is to soldiers - alien alloy put to good use)
energized (just like power armor - alien shielding technology)

propulsion options:
tracked (that's caterpillar; slow but capable of crossing every terrain easily - and crushing aliens)
wheeled (faster, but cannot cross rough terrain or fences)
hover (alien-derived tech
[for those who like it: bipedal or quadrupedal could be discussed. or even more legs. good speed, can cross most of terrain types - and can literally kick some alien butt] :happybanana:

turret options:
gun (slow reload, quite accurate, lead or depleted-uranium slugs)
machine gun (burst fire, spreads some, mow-'em-down)
missile (perhaps even more than one type? like "smoke", "standard", "high explosive", and later even "stun gas")
[perhaps another one: flame thrower?]
laser (has to be researched)
plasma (you know what it is)
quantum missile (that's what it's called, isn't it?)


...now the idea would be that you can choose ANY combination you like. so you could even build a hover tank with light armor and a machine gun as a superfast scout, or a caterpillar-driven power-shielded monster with quantum missiles.

what do you think?

[Cpl. Facehugger]

I like. Especially a two legged version with xenium powered shields, heavy plasma cannons, and a bad attitude.

[Sowelu]

How about a slower, weaker, maybe even unarmed thing that's only 1x1? I mean, Stargate gets them, why can't we? If you're just going to use it to scout with, why so much armor and expensive weaponry?

...I don't like feeling bad about sending rookies to their doom.

[Paladin]

Hmmm, a radio-guided model car with a strapped-on camera?
I like it!

It WOULD make more sense, instead of throwing rookies for the slaughter...

Besides, It's REALLY easy to rig something like that Right now (under 1000$), so I'd say YES!!

[Paladin]

What is?

[edit]
Oh, you mean the absurd CGI super-robot?
Man, that thing is SO unrealistic...

Edited by Paladin, 10 September 2004 - 01:58 PM.

[Paladin]

Well, for starters, it's far too impractical to have walking robots compared to wheels, and let me tell you that making it intelligent enough without a cutoff switch is suicidal, at best...
It was too much of a superkilling machine on the Frankenstein syndrome... Those guys should have read Isaac Assimov's works

[Cpl. Facehugger]

It didn't move like it was a robot. It moved more like a panther or similar animal. There is very little chance of robotics advancing that fast without using alien tech.

[Tuoppi]

Well, there is a branch of robotics that tries to imitate insects. With very small and simple brains they achieve fairly complex things. A 6 legged robot can be as dextrous and quick as an ant, and it can very quickly learn to walk with 4 legs if 2 get damaged. Still does need developement though, but they are already getting useful.

[T-1]

How about a slower, weaker, maybe even unarmed thing that's only 1x1? I mean, Stargate gets them, why can't we? If you're just going to use it to scout with, why so much armor and expensive weaponry?

...I don't like feeling bad about sending rookies to their doom.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean the MALP? or the UAV? A UAV would be nice. Add a laser targeting thing on the UAV and make some missile launcher on the sky ranger that homes in on the laser. Just like what they did on last nights episode of SG-1.

[mikker]

BTB, i like the idea of custom chassis, propulation, and weapon. We discussed this before, but I think this is exelent for a v1.0+, maybe even v1.0.

[Paladin]

Yep, A.M.I.E.S was still too CGI looking to be beleivable, and wheeled vehicles are far more nimble than you'd beleive...
Oh, and there are drones tested by the US military that are equipped with a mini-camera, some are as small as a CD player... That kind of gadget would come in real handy to recon the terrain and find the roving aliens...

And YES!! We need HWP chassis customisation for V1.0... I might wait for 1.1, but not much more considering the highly coolness of the thing...

Btw, how come HWPs are repaired instantly (and freeley) when a craft get home? (Not that I mind, it's just not realistic... )

[Snakeman]

Not sure, perhaps in many respects its much easier to repair a machine than a human being In any case, maybe a damaged HWP should not be fixed within a week's time or so at least. Makes us have to manage what's kept in reserves a bit.

I was thinking about this a bit more, coming off the thread about auto equipping. If the system can be utilized as well to manage transfers from base to base for you based on need, that would be cool too. Say you lost a HWP and had none in reserve at your base there, but did elsewhere, it could get that for you. It would have to ignore the type of HWP, only just that you specified your ship to have one and fill that hole as replacement til you get the HWP type you had originally had intended for the craft.

In my view, I'd rather have any HWP than none as replacement. I mean, if I originally specified my Avenger to only carry 3 Hover Plasmas and I lose one or all of them, I don't much care if the system substitutes in rocket, cannon, laser or fusion launcher tanks Later when you've gotten back to manufacturing your hover plasmas, the auto-equip thing could divert them to you (including managing transfers where applicable) from your shops or other base stores.*

*Again coming off that thread, I think one of the things that's key here is not having engineers idle no matter the base in question. If the system could handle the transfer of needed materials from base to base, the engineers could immediately have the needed project next in que. By handling transfers right, I'm referring also to materials such as alloys, ufo parts or elerium here...if the system could be sure to only syphon off across all of them rather than taking more than it needed from one that had a major project going and needed 'em too. Perhaps could be made easier as well by letting us flag what minimum quantities of stuff that was not open to sell or transfer to ensure against that a bit.

Sorry to get off on a rant, but I get excited at the possibilities sometimes Especially unit customizations and the management of them.

[Paladin]

Yeah, well, we all do that, this part of the forum IS here to brainstorm new ideas

I see your point about the HWP, I merely suggested it should not be done without time spent on it...
Although the aircrafts repair pretty realistically, they do not (to my knowledge) cost anything to do so. Considering how expensive equipment is usually replaced instead of repaired, I find it odd...

We already have a warning popup telling us we don't have enough amno for an HWP, just expanding it so we'd know WHAT is missing wuold ba all right...

Auto-assigning engineers is bad IMHO, we'd just lose control of it, and auto-decisions tends to be dumb. Showing us in the geoscape how many are idle would be good...

[Snakeman]

Auto-assigning engineers is bad IMHO, we'd just lose control of it, and auto-decisions tends to be dumb. Showing us in the geoscape how many are idle would be good...

This option would be great at a very minimum I agree. I like to see things at a glance like that to sum things up quickly and move on. However with the auto stuff, just looking at ways to get away from some of the tedium that is micromanagment. If not no auto assigning of engineers, I am still hopeful for the procurment angle. At the least, going with the popup message that stipulates your running out of X, below that it could specify quantity recommended and the amount (with your current balance of course) and an OK/Cancel button.

I figure once each base is initially outfitted with what's needed at them according to you, the recommended quantity popup thing could relfect those minimums and keep you from having to check each bases' stores religiously. Oh well, I am also speaking as an aging geezer-gamer here Anything that might minmize the previously click intensive stuff only serves to save my carpul tunnel probs

[Paladin]

hehe... Well, I agree micromanagment per se is not desirable if it goes against gameplay, but still, we need a certain control... Perhaps queuing the engineering projects would be sufficient, and assigning a "default" project would do the trick...

[Snakeman]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating "automatic everything" only here Because there is that occasional need to get in there and do things yourself. The pre-battlescape equip screen to name one (with or without auto equipping enabled - there's still that inate need to check 'em).

And where it comes to managing money early-game, having things running on automatic is probably not a great idea. You'd have to start getting Bill Gates income to make full use of it I reckon

[Paladin]

hehe... got that right ::
It's only when you get lots of bases filled with hundreds of soldiers that this kind of thing would become usefull...

[Snakeman]

Same here, I put them in harm's way every time. Its their job to help the Psi guys do theirs...muhahaha *cough*

[Paladin]

Well, mines usually survive (esp. hovertanks ), but they sometimes receive a beating...

[sir_schwick]

But back to topic....

I think their should be custom HWPs, but not the equipped method you guys are describing. A small integrated, HWP unit could be modular, but you would be giving up a lot of performance that way. I imagine you would design a miniaturized system.

What does this mean for gameplay? You reserach new HWPs. When research comes up, you choose HWP. Then you customize the features and research is started. What features and components you can use all depend on current technology and research into HWP relevant topics.

I imagine that once you get your hands on alien equipment, designing the AI for appendaged movement would not be difficult. Also, you should be able to desing bi-pedal warrior types. It would be like droid warriors that only take up one space. They would be especially useful for missions against psi-types, like the androids in Apocalypse.

Also, I would like to see medical and supply units attached to these chasis. Imagine a war-wagon of sorts that provides cover and a good supply of Blaster bombs and plasma clips. Or a medic unit that can quickly pick up and heal injured soldiers.

[Snakeman]

I imagine that once you get your hands on alien equipment, designing the AI for appendaged movement would not be difficult. Also, you should be able to desing bi-pedal warrior types. It would be like droid warriors that only take up one space. They would be especially useful for missions against psi-types, like the androids in Apocalypse.

Also, I would like to see medical and supply units attached to these chasis. Imagine a war-wagon of sorts that provides cover and a good supply of Blaster bombs and plasma clips. Or a medic unit that can quickly pick up and heal injured soldiers.

I see what your saying, kinda like seeing the early days of androidish development pre-Apoc. I like it, if only the game might consider taking into account adavances the longer one plays in game-years in the universe. Not to say that if I played to 2080 or whatever year Apoc's time frame was, I'd get "Apoc Androids™", quite the contrary (plus a bit too silly just to attain an easter egg tech). Something within 10-15 game years would suffice, assuming the game could be beaten within the first 5 game years by most on average.

Going back to the micromanagement again. I like it insofar as designing new things, but once I find the outfits/templates/whatever you want to call them, I'd like the game to remember them. Whether its a soldier template (what they carry), stores (how much to keep beyond a certain quantity-then the game could sell for me without dipping into my minimums set) or whether its HWP or ship configs (parts it has, stores, what have you).

I just think that expanding on this is also one really good way to prevent engineers being idle unless you wanted them to be. With a system like this, once you've specified what you'd want your trooper types to have, HWPs to be equipped with, and ships to be equipped with (both in armorments it will use + stores it has), you could theoretically have an intuitive system in place whereby if something is lacking, those engineers make those things (or orders put on hold unitl some things come in off the field) and distribute them as you specified them to go.

I know there are those times where you just have to go in and change things manually, so I don't want to lose that aspect at all either. But I am very much interested in various aspects that would allow a previous process or processes to be more streamlined.

Edit: Just to expound a bit more on procurement. You could also add in an arbitrary money cap where anything needed on the market won't dip into your funds below a certain level if there was an autobuy/sell feature. Just anticipate ahead a bit, form up a shopping list of sorts the game could track or anything you want and have no worries of going bankrupt from over spending. Its the same sort of priniciple with the engineering of things above. Both activities would go by that procurment list of stuff and always keep the funding level you don't want it dipping below into account (with auto selling, some things will be made by engineers for the express purpose of being liquidated anyway).

Monitoring what your total expenses will be for things can be a good guideline for your settings on this as well.

Edited by Snakeman, 02 December 2004 - 09:44 AM.

[Sinscale17]

Quadrupedal Spider tanks fit with dual mounted plasma cannons? I'd want one just to see them start kicking aliens through walls.

To solve the tedium of designing tank after tank after tank, instead why not have a catchall "design tank" option? Once you'd settled on a tank design and possibly named it (Personalisation rules), all future tanks built would hold to the same design until you went to design stage again.

The idea of a cheap, one square occupying mini scout "tank" was something I was just reading these threads to see if anyone had suggested it yet. If the reaction-fire system was improved to include Apocalypse's "run away like a baby" feature, then they could have high reaction speeds from an automated hazard evasion AI to help them survive a little longer if people actually cared enough (Seems not for all you rookie torturers ) to save them.

X-Corps building its own Apocalypse style battle androids would be a fun feature, but with strict limits and weapons vulnerabilities to lessen just how extreme they could be made, or prone to the odd amount of malfunctioning due to faulty AI, always fun when its the one holding the H.E.

The "idle Engineer" is a great idea, just by clicking on it, you could possibly just open a list of potential projects, and the one you chose automatically had all the idle engineers assigned to it. Perfect for people too lazy to want to go "Base => Manufacture => New Project => Number => Number of Engineers." Just a swift click and mass employ. Great for racking up large numbers of those spider tanks!

[NKF]

To simplify matters, how about just differentiate HWPs by chassis type. You could have a whole mess of them with a variety of unique abilities and their own set of disadvantages. It could even be as simple as light, medium, heavy and one more that's a balance of the pros and cons of the three but made from the new alloy.

When you buy them, they should then be as easily customiseable as, say, your soldiers.

The only difference being you'll be reconfiguring the HWPs with HWP parts. As they are HWPs, it might be an idea to have the equipping phase take a bit longer than your average soldier, as we are retooling a tank, after all. Oh, no, you won't spend hours equipping it. I just mean you'll open up its 'inventory', move things about and then close it and wait until all the necessary adjustments are done. Essentially, the tank will be unavailable until its modifications are completed. No need to assign engineers to this - you do have general monster mechanics and what have you to keep your other vehicles in tip top condition. Let them do it.

Of course, the tank itself wouldn't be able to go out on missions if it doesn't have all the necessary essentials. Like an engine and some means of propulsion. Well, if it did, it'd just sit there like a rock, and your soldiers would have to push it into position.

Templates would be handy to get a HWP purchased or built with all the added fittings. But if you do what they did in Apocalypse where you can select multiple units and then arm everyone at the same time, you could remodel a whole army of HWPs in moments.

On other matters, will there be a turret base, so we can choose between fixed or swivelling turrets? Winches? Headlights? Self Destruct mechanisms? Auto jettisonning of faulty and heavily damaged components? Ovens for on-the-run hot snacks?

I know HWPs are only a small part of the game, but it's nice to be elaborate with the HWPs. While useful, they weren't all that exciting in the originals.

- NKF

Edited by NKF, 26 February 2005 - 05:19 AM.

[sir_schwick]

While I favour the 'designed' approach for realism, I guess most players would prefer an Apocalypse style customization. Also, HWPs should be more useful for base attacks, defense, and really tough spots where flesh is too fragile.

[Snakeman]

On other matters, will there be a turret base, so we can choose between fixed or swivelling turrets? Winches? Headlights? Self Destruct mechanisms? Auto jettisonning of faulty and heavily damaged components? Ovens for on-the-run hot snacks?

Great thoughts here. As well, I wonder if any of the chasis sizes might have some varying degrees of storage capacity. This storage could be used to carry spare HWP bits (used in conjunction with a carried field repair kit by a soldier) to make minor repairs, or even some small arms ammunition for weapons you expect could run out on you.

I'd imagine that to have a significant storage capacity for varying operations too would be a factor of how the thing is outfitted propulsion & weapons-wise. The addition of other supplimentary equipment roles to it such as winches (to ferry troops to rooftops quicker who didn't have flying suits) could also eat into this overall storage capacity.

I like the breakdown of the chassis ideas too, the thought of being able to interchange chassis body by light/medium/heavy configurations plus the mixed variant made with the alien alloys. The addition of being able to swap out turret types and propulsion rigs sounds good too. Thinking along these lines, I wonder too if this were done if we could somehow change the ammunition requirements of projectile weapons turret types by this chassis size.

i.e. Using the cannon tank as an example here: It carries 30 rounds in its current tracked configuration, but if I chose to make it a hovering model and a medium/heavier variant, it'd sacrafice its ammo to 15-20 rounds with probably too a slower turret rotation/reaction, slower movement and the smallest storage area for spare rounds or small arms.

Anyway, I'm like you in this thinking NKF, if we're going to have customizable HWPs, I just hope its creative enough and fun to make them. And I really love that winch idea for a piece of non weapon equipment, it finally seems with this idea that we wouldn't have to worry too much about every soldier having the best mobile suit.

[NKF]

I don't know what got into me today, but the result is the image at the end. Darned custom HWPs...

Actually, if we are going with the modular design, I think it might be a good idea to divert slightly away from emphasising the 'weapons' part of the HWP (Despite 'Weapon' being a part of its name) and emphasise a bit more on the non-combat utilities.

Wouldn't it appeal more to the player to actually use a tank if it was more than just a really expensive but ultimately disposable scout? It would give the player a reason to actually bring one along if not for the better armour and combat abilities, at least for the additional extras that might free up a few soldiers for other tasks.

So what else can a mobile utility platform offer?

Storage seems to be high on everyone's list. No argument there.

The winch idea was just a joke, but I can actually see a lot of uses for it, from pulling objects or barricades aside to lifting units up a sheer drop to recovery of other HWPs and enemy robots that you want to salvage (in a smash and grab situation).

Spotlights is realy high on my list for some peculiar reason. Not just for lighting, but for temporarily blinding enemies (sudden change of light levels).

Thermal/Motion Sensor/GPS/Custard Radars (Or just some really powerful version of the hand-held variety that does a lot more). Greater range, more detail of the area, and perhaps even a colour image of the map (as opposed to a monochrome display). Or perhaps just booster that allows nearby handheld radars to pick up more information.

Recharge stations (for energy based weapons and tools). Not sure for what though if ammo is infinite and unrestricted.

A module with a bay containing all sorts of mechanical tools for a mobile repair (or rather 'patch up') station - automated or manual. Perhaps even a medical variety for field heart surgery...

A long arm (end effector) for remote detonations or disarming of explosives (like misplaced proximity mine ugh!). For remote detonations the arm should be blown away. (Thank you Scrapheap Challenge...)

I can't really think of much else at the moment.

Of course, you don't want to be able to bolt all of that onto the tanks. You'd have to decide based on how much they can carry, what equipment they already have and how many pounds of armour you're coating the tank with. Can't have the tank becoming too powerful or too useful that it becomes irreplaceable. The tank is there to support, not replace your soldiers.

Ah, don't mind me. Just brainstorming.

- NKF

Attached Files

•  HWP_Scribbles.png   54.04K   44 downloads

[mj_12commando]

I demand minigun armed HWPs. Perfect for making Alien problems simply... melt away.

So, yeah, let this be a vote for customizable HWPs.

[Snakeman]

When you first brought up the winch, I immediately dug the idea. There are just so many uses for it that I can see a tool like this being invaluable, no matter what chassis model you use or propulsion method. Although when I visualize its use in my head, chassis and propulsion methods used would limit it.

i.e. A chassis with tracked or wheeled propulsion equipped with a winch might only be good for helping you drag large objects on the ground not nailed down (or the soldiers could do some blasting to make things unnailed down) to make fortified positions. It could probably also be used to drag a semi-unconscious soldier or corpses or even items, but it would be limited to primarily dragging as its use when hooked to something. However, if there were large holes in the ground or something or a lower level with an opening, the winch could also lower items or people down but never up (that is, never at an altitude higher than the thing with the winch on it).

A chassis with a propulsion system that lets it fly can do some of the above if its on the lowest altitude/ground, but in the air it can now carry things and people with its winch. Certainly seems the most versatile of platforms when equipped with one.

Much of its usefulness, at least with regard to terrain and other objects associated with it, would be a lot of fun to mess with if we could influence our environment any. i.e. soldiers to blast down trees, then using the HWP's winch capability to make impromptu fortifications. Neat places for this kind of thing might be to make a perimeter around your troop ship or to stake out UFO doors a little more effectively in terms of creating covering opportunities.

I was glancing at your sketch too and was thinking about other automated variations of things we could use. The thing that got me thinking about it in particular was the sketch of the soldier standing on or near what looks like a kind of tobogin sled thingy. I can't tell how long it is or whatever, but I do see a grappling hook on it.

Anyway, it made me think that we don't necessarily need to have all these special features attached to our tanks, but possibly utilize from time to time, smaller unarmed pieces of equipment for specialized uses. That thing looks like it could be long enough to transport a person laying down, but it happens to have a grappling hook launcher thing on it, lending it a duel use there. Smaller sled type things like this might be preferable to spending the money to outfit tanks with lots of gadgets, instead going with something that looks like it might only take up two slots as opposed to four for a tank.

If I was traveling in an Avenger, and didn't want to take 3 tanks like I usually do, thinking I might need more tools, I could take 6 small duel use sleds like that.

Edited by Snakeman, 06 April 2005 - 02:25 AM.