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XC-2 StarFire & XC-22 Eclipse


Crix Dorius

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Jim: :huh?: Reading the last couple posts Deimos made here, he simply said that it looked like the swept wing plane, which had been discussed previously, in the past didn't seem to be liked by the majority, and I'm thinking he wanted you to be aware of that. He did say "Its funny how good ideas go round and round ", meaning he thought your concept was a GOOD idea. ^_^ Previous posts about ufo designs focusing on the tactical challenge over looks doesn't really apply to your work, as your interior designs fit with whatever shape ufo we go with. In fact, everybody liked your concept so much that it looks like we're going to base the interiors around that concept. The 'tactics over looks' was in regard to the exterior, we didn't want to make a cool looking ufo hull that was simple to assault. I'm sorry you feel you've been attacked, but it certainly isn't happening from my perspective.

 

BlackAce: for weapon hardpoints, we've been working with the idea of both external and internal weapon bays, so you could go either way. Unless the weapon was mounted on the top of the plane, you wouldn't see it in a base assualt anyway due to the isometric view. In the X-Net database view it would be shown without any weapons mounted. But since it only has 1 weapon bay, if you choose to make it external perhaps there could be a recess in the hull under the nose where it would be attached? A central mount for balance would make sense IMO just because fuel is usually spread evenly, so the weapons and ammo would be as well.

 

For next steps, perhaps you could smooth the edges where the main wing attaches to the engine and main hull? It would give it a sleeker feel I think, and make it look more like 1 piece. But for texturing, yes I would pick a texture size like 512x512 pixels for the hull to start. Most of what I've seen involves cutting the texture into pieces and packing them together as tight as possible. Then when you map the texture you can position the polys in a piecemeal fashion as well. There are lots of tutorials out there regarding that, just search for texture mapping models. For landing gear, you can include it or just position the model low enough that you'd never see the gear. It can be like a Star Wars landspeeder and hover in place. :D You could also check out the skyranger model's gear, just a skid system that fits flush to the hull when retracted.

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Here I have added some "details" on the fuselage, but I still have to think something for weapon hardpoints. I would appreciate if you can help me on this, for now Im thinking of something like a cannonhole on one of the shoulder, (similar to F-16 cannon, right above the LERX what they call "shoulder") and also I have to add some landing gear...

 

And there is a point I want to learn, now I have almost finished the concept, so what is next? should I texture it or is there anything to do first? (cabin interior and pilots' cabin are still pending by the way)

IMO it doesn't look like a transport. It looks like a fighter with greebles added. IIRC the lightning is still supposed to be human tech or just a hint of alien components, so maybe looking for referance on the B1B or concorde could help base it in reality. Also making the fusalage longer and not so stubby could improve the idea that it's a fast craft.

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Human Tech level 1 = Skyranger and Interceptor.

Human Tech level 2 = Firestorm and Lightining.

Human Tech level 3 = Avenger.

 

Each tech level must be distinguishable from the other. Hence the large diference in looks between the skyranger and interceptor and the second tech level. To spell it out there must be a clear difference between Tech level 2 and tech level 3. Firestom and Lightining does not equal Avenger. Each craft has a different job to do and making them look similar is just going to confuse the player.

 

Edited for clarity-Breunor

Edited by Breunor
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To expound (is that the word?) on the tech level 3 versus 2, perhaps part of the concern is that the avenger is not _more_ advanced looking than the firestorm? My impression is that there's a definite step forward in design from level 1 to level 2, where you have the sleek look that will include the sheen effect. But the step up to level 3 might not be as dramatic? Would that be a better way of describing the concern? Once we have several concepts, there's always the option of saying "let's use this idea on that concept to make these craft more consistent or more/less advanced looking."

 

Edit: And IIRC, RK complimented fux0r on his aircraft design, urging him to flesh it out as an Avenger concept. That sounds pretty positive to me. Other seniors liked the design as well, the only concern I remember was that it was for a concept already locked down. So why don't we start with a fresh slate here, and focus on producing concepts and models for the game, and we can work as a team to develop ideas? :beer: I'm quite sure being pissed at each other and arguing about it isn't going to help.

Edited by Breunor
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Personally I also like more sharp designs, and even more real ones, however, this aircraft should bear more UFO style IMO, if you remember old Lightning, it was a complete round craft with a single weapon on top of it and it wasn't a very nice design at all, and more importantly, just like Demios mentioned, Firestorm and Lightning has similar shapes as they utilize newly developed UFO tech. For Avenger, as humans are going to master new technology much better than before, it would be nice to use something more humanlike, for example the aircraft model shown in previous page (posted by Jim) will suit well for Avenger concept I think.

 

Anyway, in my design like I said I tried to stick real models as much as I can, and now Im quite happy with my design, however as this is a concept model there could be other changes or total cancelation of model

 

latest updates, I have increase the smoothness of the engines, I tried to make it more flat but as I have cut out the engines from the main fuselage its quite hard to implement radical changes now, same goes for main hull, I cant reduce the gradient difference between wing and the cabin, if I do so, it will increase wing span significantly becuase cabin has a very high elevation, and it will take much more space to spread all the elevation over the surface.

 

however I could create a new model which could be more sleek but like I said as I it should have enough cabin height for soldiers, this elevation constrain will limit the shape of new model too.

post-29-1066761587_thumb.jpg

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Hmm, nice. But I don't really like the red windows, it reminds me too much of a bug or something. You may want to make them jet black so that it will still contrast with the rest of the ship (which is more like greyish black to me)
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yes windows look weird to me too, I will take care of it soon and I can even change their shape but first I have to texture it...

 

by the way, can I use the texture of Firestorm to make it standart, or should it be something different? please advise.

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Also, those two bars at the back look strange to me, what are they for?

those bars are TOO important, without them, aircraft may fly anyway but it could definately hurt eyes :) just kidding, I added them to remove plain look of aircraft, I impressed them from "Mon Calamari Cruiser - Star Wars" design.

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the best thing is those parts are easy to dismount. :)

 

I have to texture the model first, after then we will see which is better plain or retro style (I dont like retro and round models, but this is the concept what can I do?)

 

I like these kind of advices, please feel free to mention your ideas upon my design

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I have just textured the lightning, this was the EASIEST skin job I have ever did (there are some points need more work but consider this one as a preview...)

 

I want to thank to Crix for leting me to use his texture and bump map for this job. here are the shots,

 

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/Lightning_Tex_01.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/Lightning_Tex_02.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/Lightning_Tex_03.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/Lightning_Tex_04A.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/Lightning_Tex_04B.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/Lightning_Tex_05A.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/blackacelead/Lightning_Tex_05B.jpg

 

A and B designations are indicating whether model has some parts on top or not. (retrostyle...)

post-29-1066770080_thumb.jpg

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Looks nice. But just two points (these are imo only)

 

I think the two rod things should go. They seem somewhat out of place.

 

The shape of the windows looks kind of strange to me. They remind me of apoc's annhilator's windows.

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I'm going to do my own concept with Fux reguardless ( I assume we still are at the concept stage here ) as I feel if the current suggestion goes ahead neither tech level 2 craft bear any resembalance or have any tie with the Avenger we already have or level 1 tech, they look like a completely different game. I believe this is what Vaaish was saying above but his post seems to have been lost in the fury :)

 

I would prefer having the Firestorm as one extreme as there is practiacally nothing human about it as the alien extreme, and have the Lightening as the human extreme where the design is mostly human, both with alien alloys and both with the UFO engines. Then the Avenger is the produce of what they have learned from both designs put into an ultimate craft which is what I always thought of it as, the best melding of alien and human technology possible at that time.

 

Edited for content-Breunor

Edited by Breunor
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Looks promising with the texture. May I suggest you scale the texture down so that it tiles more? Crix's idea was that the alien alloy plates were attached, and right now those plates look rather big. If you drop the size to 25-50% in both directions and let it tile more on the hull, I think it would look very good. For the engine extensions, what about a version that looks like the f-22 or f-23 exhaust ports? The top ends before the bottom, that type of thing. Example:

42.jpg

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I have slightly modified the texture to make it "tile firendly" and here it is (I think this is just what you want)

 

I have created a video to display effect much better I will post soon...

post-29-1066772100_thumb.jpg

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I have adjusted the texture to tile it in MAX, after mirroring and inverting 1/4 of the texture to convert it into a full texture (which makes edges continous when material is tiled) it has developed a strange marking in front :)

 

so, did you spot the "muton face" in front?

Edited by BlackAce
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****Video is in DivX format and weights around 2 Mbytes...

 

 

sorry, it didnt upload video due to some reason, will try to upload later....

Edited by BlackAce
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Looks nice. But just two points (these are imo only)

 

I think the two rod things should go. They seem somewhat out of place.

 

The shape of the windows looks kind of strange to me. They remind me of apoc's annhilator's windows.

they remind me annihilator's windows too but there isnt much to do about it, if I use a single large window it wont look good on the other hand if I use a window style similar to B-2 they would be too small, so IMO its okay.

 

I have removed those parts from top, texture&bump map makes it like just I want.

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Looks promising with the texture. May I suggest you scale the texture down so that it tiles more? Crix's idea was that the alien alloy plates were attached, and right now those plates look rather big. If you drop the size to 25-50% in both directions and let it tile more on the hull, I think it would look very good. For the engine extensions, what about a version that looks like the f-22 or f-23 exhaust ports? The top ends before the bottom, that type of thing. Example:

about engines,

 

hmm, it would be very hard to change its style like that because I cut out those engine meshes from the fuselage.. but I can give it a try,

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When I built the hanger, I planned for it to be able to house the largest craft, eg the Avenger. That means it can fit a craft that is just about 44 meters long in there and probably about 30 or 35 meters wide w/o exceeding the dimensions of the hanger.

My biggest concern about the current model, other than I think it is too alien ( which is a point of view, the style guide is very vague in this area ) Exactly what are the dimentions of the craft?

 

Edit: Needs some clearance to be able to walk around it as well.

Edited by Jim69
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When I built the hanger, I planned for it to be able to house the largest craft, eg the Avenger. That means it can fit a craft that is just about 44 meters long in there and probably about 30 or 35 meters wide w/o exceeding the dimensions of the hanger.

My biggest concern about the current model, other than I think it is too alien ( which is a point of view, the style guide is very vague in this area ) Exactly what are the dimentions of the craft?

 

Edit: Needs some clearance to be able to walk around it as well.

I agree with you here. Personaly I'd like to see a concept based on the switcheblade's body design.

 

IMO this new concept just doesn't look right. If the cabin is up there in the back it's going to be tough to set that thing down with any accuracy on manual and the rod protrusions on the wings just look make this look like we took the firestorm and stuck a few odd protrusions om it. again I'd like to see the lightning based more in reality, it's not like we just tossed all human knowledge about craft design out the window when we got alien alloys.

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As a concept it's well realised, but I have to I agree it would be nice to see an evolution of design from more human to more alien.

 

Blackace - It might be worth leaving this design for now and trying another tack. when we have a number of concepts we can compare them side by side and make a more objective comparative decision.

 

As an approach it might be worth thinking that the boffins only partly understand the materials and engine technology, and haven't figured how to get the best of them yet. Also the designers know about human tech craft design, and have some difficulty too. Perhaps a design would end up as being overengineered, bulkier than it needs to be, or a real mix of materials.

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hmm, I must say that Im happy with the design concept, becuase it definately combines both alien and human technology IMO, so, currently I have no idea how could I create a complete design which features both human&alien technology in a different way. But if you like to I can create a more human like aircraft with standart delta wings, and a tandem cockpit, airintakes... however, I agree with Deimos that Firestorm and Lightning should be quite similar, and it is now.
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The texture looks much better in that smaller tile format. Could the main cabin be stretched forward so that the windows are closer to the front of the craft? That would make it easier to see during takeoff/landing I guess. If the shape was refined to look more like the stealth bomber, wouldn't that make it similar to human tech but alien some alien tech as well? Instead of bomb bays it's carrying troops now. This current concept reminds me of the stealth bomber already, so maybe that would bridge the gap. The Firestorm model had that "mini stealth bomber" look IMO too.

 

Jim, there should be a few posts above showing the plane inside a big box, with several small boxes grouped together. It's all scaled to represent the hangar and the space needed for 12 soldiers. It appears to have plenty of space for the troops and plenty of room within the hangar as well. I had the same question when I first saw it.

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It may resemble a stealth bomber but it doesn't look remotely like something that was reverse engineered and slung together using human technology. In fact I see nothing human in it at all, which I understood for the Firestorm but it badly needs a balancer or it will look nothing like the Avenger, which I thought was meant to be the more advanced plane. If this goes through it is pretty much identical to the Firestorm in the general shape. Don't get me wrong, not bashing the modelling technique, just this design along with the Firestorm will make the Avenger stick out like a sore thumb, and not in a good way.

 

To me to reverse engineer technology is figuring out how it works and trying to build it into existing technology. Like Vaaish said, it's like the humans just abandoned a shade under 100 years of aircraft design in 5 minutes.

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TO Jim: Im sorry to hear that you think that way, but IMO it looks like a hybird carft, because I just mixed the classic saucer UFO and the B2 bomber,

 

about radical design change you and Vaaish mentioned, current aircraft design depends on some factors like aerodynamic, propulsion and material which is the MOST important especially if you want to create a very fast aircraft, becuase beyond MACH* 1 stress and temperature on the aircraft surface increases dramatically due to drag, thats why USAF uses titanium alloy on SR-71 Blackbird, to make aircraft resistant to both heat and stress...

 

Here, "alien alloys are durable and light" (regarding to X-Com UD) and as "alien power resource is capable of generating gravity waves as well as other forms of energy" which makes aircraft to float and gives thrust, just using gravity waves or by heating up air (with some airintakes) engines can work...

 

Now, these two new tech has kicked wings, typical human engines and of course required aerodynamic shape (gravity waves can deflect air from the surface as well, so you dont just give thrust behind but also a create a vortex which pushes aircraft to forward or another direction...so aircraft surface wont heat up or stressed)

 

so thats why we can throw out 100 year tech away in a second, becuase new tech is 1000 year beyond from present day most likely...

 

*MACH indicates air pressure on surface rather than just indicating airspeed, becuase speed of sound changes as the pressure differs.

Edited by BlackAce
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The texture looks much better in that smaller tile format. Could the main cabin be stretched forward so that the windows are closer to the front of the craft? That would make it easier to see during takeoff/landing I guess.  If the shape was refined to look more like the stealth bomber, wouldn't that make it similar to human tech but alien some alien tech as well? Instead of bomb bays it's carrying troops now. This current concept reminds me of the stealth bomber already, so maybe that would bridge the gap. The Firestorm model had that "mini stealth bomber" look IMO too.

 

Jim, there should be a few posts above showing the plane inside a big box, with several small boxes grouped together. It's all scaled to represent the hangar and the space needed for 12 soldiers. It appears to have plenty of space for the troops and plenty of room within the hangar as well. I had the same question when I first saw it.

about windows, I will try to improve its design but IMO its okay for now... (by the way if X-Com is utilizing alien navigation/flight control and weapons systems and flying at ultra-fast speeds, windows can only be used for sight-seeing I guess :) anyways I will try to find a better shape for windows if I can,

 

and THANKS for your positive (constructive) words for the design, I need that

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I'm updating the assetlist to include these concepts as well.

 

As to the concepts fitting into the tech levels and all that, I see BlackAce's and Crix's models being modified US stealth bomber and stealth fighter respectively. The hulls were refitted to accomodate different components and materials, etc. Yes, they are not very similar looking to the human tech originals but everybody seems to see the relation there. These are concepts, so if they are chosen to be used they can then be tweaked to fit with each other better. I will try to keep an eye on the thread and update the concepts as new pics and files are submitted.

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Sorry about the late reply, Black Ace...

 

Black Ace:

 

I like your design for the lightning in that it looks very close to the design for the firestorm. If there are concerns that it doesn't look like a transport I would see what you could do to make it look slightly more pregnant. I believe that those concerns are not pressing as the ship you are designing is supposed to be the fastest in the game.

 

There are a few aspects I would reconsider:

 

The engine nacelles. In your most recent pic it looks to me like there are some rocket nozzles behind the cowling that might look a little dated. I cannot see for certain, though. I would see if you can come up with any sort of non thruster oriented propulsion system just to see how it goes.

 

I would shave down the windows to look more like the cockpit of the B-2 Spirit to give it an air of familiarity.

 

I always figred the UFO weapon systems were omni directional. I would concider a turretted hardpoint beneath the fuselage that blends with the body.

 

I think it needs some work but I like the direction you're headed in. Keep hammering away at it.

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OK...

 

Here my modified version from Ace's Lightning.

What do you think ?

 

P.S. Yes I know there are some poly-errors. I will fix them later. *very busy*

Lightning_Alpha.jpg

Edited by Crix Dorius
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:o Holy cow on a stick! :rock: Very nice work Crix! What do you think of this BlackAce? He's moved the cabin windows up to a good spot for piloting, and merged the various parts into the hull. And of course the texture... sweet!
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Although not shot from the same angle, here's both concepts together. They certainly have a strong resemblance to each other now, and IMO look very good for level 2 tech.

level2.jpg

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For reference, here are some concept craft that are either just coming around or have been proposed in the last couple years. The 2 concepts above could easily be these modified human prototypes that have alien technology in them.

craft.jpg

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Crix, are you SURE you arnt in any big company? Like naught dogs? OR something? You are sure the BEST here to make it! Oh...my.....god....

 

 

*faints*

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It certainly looks much better and more like the design was botched together ( the scientists, not you :) ) , although for a good comparison it would be good to see the progression between the tech levels, I still think they don't look like the missing link between the Interceptor and Avenger, no matter how quality the texturing is.
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Wow Crix I'm awestruck. Its amazing, I love the mix of alien alloy and Earth tech, its just soooo beautiful.

 

Breu, the top left one is the Aurora. Top right is the Boeing bird of Prey. Bottom left is that ramjet craft (I forget the name) and bottom right I'd guess is another one like it, though I haven't seen that one before.

Edited by Deimos
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I have been watching the development of the other craft and I have makde some adjustments to the avenger to make it fit better. I still have some detail work to do as well as texture it but this is the tweaked avenger. the tab on the back is the loading ramp top door open.

av.jpg

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I love it!

 

Sorry if I hurt your feelings Vaaish, Its just that the current avenger doesn't look much more advanced than the firestorm/lightning duo. Hmm, as a side note: Could we make it so that avengers show up later? Just to extend the service life of your Lightnings and Firestorms.

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger
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Facehugger, I don't think you will hurt Drewid's feelings since I made the original Avenger. As I said earlier I've been watching the development of the other human craft styles and had been thinking about editing the Avenger for some time. Studies and other projects have made it hard to get time to do it.

 

ok This will be the last post of this model in this thread. Please direct any response to this model to the Avenger thread (you may have to do some digging.)

 

Anyway I've changed the cockpit a little though I want to keep them similar enough to see the relationship to the lightning. Added more detail to the curves to help make them seem smoother as well (this isn;t visable on the pic) also finished the gear doors and gear. that leave a slight rework of the ramp and I'll texture it. As for texture do we want to get away from Crix's "broken glass" texture and keep it similar to the original avenger texture or do we want to use a different one altogether to emulate humans figguring out how to do whatever they want with the alien alloy?

av.jpg

Edited by Vaaish
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