210 replies to this topic

[Cavoe]

What do you guys think of interceptor squadrons based off current, real-life squadrons? Like the Jolly Rogers, or Black Spades, or the Ace in the Ring, Etc...

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Uhh, isn't a squadron a number of ships (4 at least?) So, how often do you have that many interceptors at one base?

Don't get me wrong, this is a good idea, but it needs to be modified a bit.

Edit: Ships, :: I meant planes. My brain is still on Star Trek mode

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 17 August 2003 - 08:23 PM.

[Ancalagon]

I think a squadron is both a group of planes and a group of ships

But yeah it should be easier to send multiple planes at a target

[dipstick]

How about a hangar holding 4 interceptors?? Same as real life! Then, when you get bigger (ie better) planes, you can only fit a certain amount of them in - so 3 firestorms (never used any of these, so I don't know size etc) and only 2 avengers or thereabouts? Either that, or we extend the amount of room in a base, and allow around 5 or 6 hangars to be built as well as several other facilities.

[mikker]

it could be like in x-com, its just more planes. Same cost, same holdup, and same attack.

[j'ordos]

I think having squadrons of interceptors detracts from the xcom feel. The point being: you have only a few interceptors, and you have to defend earth with those. If you get like 4 interceptors in one hangar, there really should be a lot more UFOs...

Edited by j'ordos, 18 August 2003 - 07:14 AM.

[dipstick]

And, what is wrong with that??

[j'ordos]

We're not a military organisation with an airforce bigger than most nations... <_<

[Cavoe]

Well, I guess my point was kind of a best of the best thing... pilots recruited from these squadrons, into smaller x-com squadrons... RPG elements in the making?

[Aosar]

In a way this could be made to work and I have been meaning to take this up. First in TFTD there was an escort craft, but it didn't escort anything, ever! Escorts, that is what I'm talking about. In MoO 3 the Task Force thing works ok, it has some creat ideas, but it still lacks something. We could do the same, for humans and for the aliens - but unlike MoO - make it optional...

[dipstick]

No, you missed my point - what is wrong with MORE UFOs?

[dipstick]

Actually imagine having several squadrons (of say 4 avengers each) attacking as many bships!! Imagine the score!! *sound of money rolling in*

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Well, it would take a large amount of time to make that many avengers.

[dipstick]

Alright! it was a for instance!

[Kenshiro]

I think it would be tedious to have to fight that many battles. Part of the beauty of the original was that the pacing was enough to keep you on your toes, but not so much that you were given an overwhelming workload. Imagine trying to run that many ground missions once your epic air campaign got underway... you'd be at it for hours, all the while stuck in real time without your research, manufacturing, or supply ordering progressing. I think the player would have too much going on. More is not necessarily better.

By the way, most flying squadrons (at least in the USAF) have at least 10 aircraft and as many as 50. The smallest squadron I ever saw was in the Cameroon Air Force, consisting of 3 Alpha fighters and 2 Loon scout props, but that squadron included the entire support staff for the base as well.

[dipstick]

Whoohoo! imagine 50 avengers on one very small UFO!! *imagines all the window management*

Aaah! We must implent a button which gives your orders to ALL aircraft. eg takeoff and intercept - so they simultaneously attack. and standard attack - they ALL attack at the same time.

[dipstick]

Wahey, now we need to MC more people into thinking this way....

[Cpl. Facehugger]

Cpl. Facehugger psi defense=90

Anyway, if we did as you say Jim, we would need to start out with more interceptors.

But, do you really think a scout type ufo could survive 6 stingray missiles?

[Breunor]

This is a valid topic to discuss, but it's laboratory stuff, not workshops. Remember workshops are for feature development for the current (1) version of Xenocide. I'll move this thread to the labs.

[dipstick]

Sorry - thought it was

[Jerry]

Couldn't you get the desired effect without the play balance consequences (what happens when 2 planes in your squad are downed?) simply by recruiting and training pilots like you do grunts? Perhaps even custom modifications to vehicles (alien weapons you cannot manufacture, or for which reasearch is difficult, but which you can lern enough about to use the ones you find). Imagine Bill "Mad Dog" smith in his F-22 raptor with flame-paint and olds, salvaged pulse cannon strapped under one wing.

[GreatGold]

Hey -

An easy an interesting twist on this would be to have a empty entry that allowed players to create fictional "Squadrons" at each base. So, while it has no effect on gameplay, the two interceptors at your main base would be reffered to as (just an example) - "XenoAmerica Squadron". So now in the CTD entry, they are just labelled as belonging to that squadron, even though its purely a fluff thing. Then at another base, you could choose to have those two Firestorms reffered to as "XenoBrazila Squadron", etc.

No real affect on gameplay, but another way of customizing units. Of course, this could just be overkill ! You could even then, in theory, apply unique call signs to the individual craft at the base.

This work work nicely with the suggested ATC-ish pop-up boxs on the geoscape...

Gold

[Sabin]

I think convoys should be added. For those who don't know what that is, it is basically a group of entitys that are moving to another location in a small-large group. This is usually applied to supply-related vehicles in the military, and possibly other things.

What I propose is to allow the aliens to fly in one group, like many Very Small Scouts and so on.

[Cpl. Facehugger]

What, do you mean a convoy of supply ships with escorts? That is a good idea.

But I think it would only make sense for supply and possible retaliation.
Besides in real life (if you believe in ufos) the ufos are usually alone when they abduct people/cows, do ufo stuff...

[GreatGold]

Hey -

Interestingly, I think this already sorta happens in X-Com. By this I mean, you get that occurence every few months where all of a sudden four battleships and three or so other large UFO's all appear at the same time, and then you go apeshit trying to intercept them all. Usually this signifies a new alien base in that area, and in mymiond this type of activity sorta falls under "logitistical convoy". Is that what you meant, or something more specific?

Gold

[Breunor]

As there will be the possibility of playing the aliens in version 1+, perhaps you could lay out what types of missions the aliens would need escorts for. Most missions are scouting types, no escort there. Supply ships would be good, as would abductors. A battleship sent to base attack should have one to intercept the human interceptors. A terror ship could also have one, it would be fun if it patroled the terror site and tried to intercept your skyranger prior to landing...

[Cpl. Facehugger]

What would happen if it did? I'm not sure I like the idea of my entire vetran squad getting killed just because they got shot down while landing.

[j'ordos]

But, would a convoy show up as one target or as several separate ones? If it's the first, there's a new air combat system needed. If it's the second, what's keeping them together? If you pick out one would the others carry on (like in xcom) or would they try and defend the ship you attack? You'll need more ships yourselves that way, as one won't be able to hold off the buddies of the ship you attack.

And I'm not sure I'd like my squad to be blown up while landing too.

[Sabin]

I am thinking of the convoys being in one group together. Perhaps 2 or so so ships escorting a supply ship, and so on. Or you could integrate both of them with this:

The covoys are usually one group, as before, but some ships could break off in order to intercept the enemy and ectera-basically serving as at least an distraction, while the main group continues.

To enhance this further, perhaps the aliens could detect the range of radar fields, and send their decoys into range initially, and then wait for 2 or so minutes, then the real important ships enter the radar range.

As for your own troop transports: Perhaps you should escort them, much like the alien convoys?

[GreatGold]

I gotta say, if we could pull off a more advanced air combat system, I would love to see this. That said though, I think it could very well scare off a lot of people. I'd hate to see Xenocide lose its main attraction, the tactical squad based combat, and then end up like Apocolypse.

However, if we could put together a truly comprehensive and intelligent dynamic air campaign generator, then it would be most interesting. And I think that is what is being suggested. A completely new dynamic campaign engine. Sounds scary to code...

Gold

[soundman]

Why don't you just tack Interceptor on the end of it with some new skins and models and have a new intercept mode????


(Just kidding, would be interesting though)

[Breunor]

I was thinking you'd have the ufo fighters guarding the larger ship, and when your craft engaged the fighters would go aggressive while the larger ship goes defensive/evasive at full speed to seperate. Unless your craft was faster/more maneuverable than the alien fighters, you wouldn't be able to disengage them, you'd have to shoot them down. If you kept after the larger ship, the fighters would get free shots IMO as you target the large ufo.

If the terror site had fighter escorts you'd have to send a couple interceptors ahead of the transport to shoot down the alien craft, and follow up with the transport.

[mikker]

could get interesting...

[Breunor]

And perhaps you could even have the terror site be a 2 parter then, in the second half you take out the alien fighters' pilots. But that would be a hassle IMO, it would be easy enough to have a second navigator on the terror ship remotely controlling the fighters when needed.

Of course, if you just show up with the avenger and some plasma cannons, I think you'd get to do whatever you wanted...

[Breunor]

There was talk about making a 3D version of the intercept screen, perhaps the isometric view from behind your planes. You could click on a plane and select the aggresion level and target. There would be clouds in the background flying past, and damage levels would be indicated by smoke and fire coming out perhaps. You'd see the animations of the weapons shooting out from the plane too. You just have the interceptors group together on that screen, I could see having up to 5 easily enough, with the alien ship out in front. You could have several ufos out there as well. You'd have to click fast since it's all in real time, so maybe having a button to assign all craft to attack at the same aggression level or to target the same ufo would be helpful.

[mamutas]

I had a game where my Skyranger was patrolling the area and few UFO crafts were flying around. I found it weird that they did not try to shoot my craft down. I almost wanted them to do that...

And, yeah, why alien craft do not attack XCom crafts in the air anyway? Why do they always wait for the first shot? I thought they are invading, not human...

[fux0r666]

The AWACS is a good idea! I really like that. It would be kewl too if you could tap into a satellite system and get a thermal display of the unfolding events... it would really show off the speed of the engagements, having a stationary (geosynchronous) viewport, without revealing too much detail.

I have an idea for the audio of the interceptor engagements. You could have an open channel of communication with the pilot and have it sound like those tapes that the military releases to CNN on occasion.

You would hear the whine of the engines in the back ground and some static the breathing of the pilot through his G-mask.. and the pilot call out the various events.. "Range to target: 100 miles, angels 55." ... "Range to target: 50 miles, angels 60." "Range to target: 20 miles, angels 45- Request permission to engage."

You hit the button for an aggressive engagement, "Permission Granted, interceptor one. Make it quick."

"Copy."

The Ufo makes evasive maneouvers. THe AI pilot has to do some 'turning and burning' as they call it in order to get a missile lock. You hear the growl of the missile radar searching of a target and the heavy breathing and grunting of the pilot as he fights to keep the blood in his brain.

"Target Aquired on UFO 3"

You hear the high pitched squeel of the missile lock.

"I have tone. Fox 2!" You hear a hiss and a roar as the missile departs the undercarriage of the airplane. The pilot continues to grunt and his breathing increases in speed and intensity as he strains. "Negative impact."

Then you hear a thunderclap followed by a deep hiss as a plasma bolt nearly misses the interceptor. You hear the plane buffet slightly. The pilot continues to strain. The ship is within gun range now. "Guns guns guns!" The bass buzzing like the sound of ripping burlap of the 20mm guns churning out 6,000 rpm sounds somehow distant over the sounds of the airflow and engines.

A sharp, resonating explosion sounds as the aircraft is hit. You hear the creaking of metal and a sharp hiss as the ripped airframe interacts with the airflow. Bitching Betty pipes up, "Warning warning warning warning" The pilot grunts heavily.

"Flame out in number 2... I've got," Another plasma hit. Betty changes her song, "Eject. Eject. Eject. Eject."

The plane explodes in a shower of shrapnel. You hear the beginning of a sharp, concussive blast and then all is dead air.

[fux0r666]

It would, however, completely destroy any fantasy one might have the unfolding furball of actual aerial combat.

[j'ordos]

Having all that radio chatter has one disadvantage though: it'll take much longer. Whereas in the original an interception took a few seconds before either one was shot down or disengaged, having all that chatter will increase the time you spend on interceptions. And on top of that, there has to be enough variation, as otherwise it could get repetitive after 10 interceptions, and you start looking for a button to turn off the chatter to speed things up. So I think it's ony feasible if the player actually has some measure of control (more than in the original, I mean) over the whole thing.
Maybe air combat a là Achtung Spitfire or something like that? (You have a top down view, and control your aircraft turn based, each plane can move a set distance according to set speed and... nevermind, here are some pics. The game itself was mediocre, but the flying actually was rather fun)