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#51 sir_schwick

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Posted 24 November 2004 - 11:52 PM

I think X-COM needs some realism, but mostly alien killing coolness. Gameplay is really important.

On Pistols:

Dive Shot - Sargeants and above could fire a single pistol in one direction/target while diving in the same or another direction. Diving can go throw doors, windows, or shooting before diving behind cover.
Move Shoot - Sargeants and above could fire a single pistol in one direction or at a specific target while running in the same direction or a different direction.
Hang Shoot - You could hang from a window or ledge or pipe and shoot with a pistol. Inaccurate, but if you hanging two feet above an unsuspecting Muton it doesn't matter.
Pistol Whip - Cold clock those alien deviants in the back of the head. Front will not work so well.
Push Shoot - Aim with one hand, push a covering object with the other. Works well when combined with crouch.
Sensory Suppresion - Pistols can easily be fitted with sensory suppresion gear, once that gear is purchased or researched.

On Rifles:

Partial Two-Handed - You cannot hold a rifle and another object at the same time. However, you can temporarily balance the riflewhile loading grenades, changing equipment, or operating machinery one-handed.
Rifle Integration - Engineers can modify non-Earth rifles to hold small items such as Motion Sensors, Flashlights, and Psi-Amps. Terran rifles naturally have these slots on them. Items on a rifle usually take less TUs then holding them in a hand.
Grenade Launcher - Engineers can modify non-Earth rifles to have an integrated greande launcher. Earth rifles inherently are equipped with grenade launchers that can load alien and Terran models that can be launched farther and more accurately for less TUs.
Bayonets - Any rifle can be fitted with a variety of melee weapons. The predominant types are Stun, Stabbing, and Energy Lance(alien). A charge attack can be made over distances of two to three squares with most troops. This attack can curve around corners or hit someone on either side after opening a door or even hit over hedges and through windows.
Dual Clips- With the appropriate research, any rifle can be designed to be modified to load dual clips. This means when the first clip is empty it starts feeding from the second clip. Clips can be replaced independently.
Rifle Melee - If you choose not to use a bayonet on your rifle, you can also swing it into an efficient stroke that will knock all but the most stout Muton out cold.
Run and Gun - Sargeants and above and aim at an area in their front 270 degree arc while moving in any direction. Accuracy is down, but you fire snap shots as you move at the rate the TUs are used for movement.
Door Bash - Troopers with a certain minimum strength or power armour can do a door bash. The door will come down while an auto-shot is fired simeoultaneously. This is usually a good way to get the guy hiding behind the door. Captain's and above can aim to start shooting at a specific area as the door goes down.
Prone Shot - Troopers can fire the rifle at highly increased accuracy from a prone position. While prone all non-firing actions take extra TUs.
Dive Shots - Captains and above can dive and shoot an auto-shot in their 90 degree forward arc. Highly inaccurate but might force an alien to duck for a moment while you get behind cover.


Heavy Weapons

Two-Handed Weapon - Heavy weapons are too combersome to balance them with one arm while working with the other arm. Manual reloading of ammo and grenades, or any other functions that requires a free arm is impossible. The Heavy Weapons must be set down before they can be used.
Ammo Loaders - Most Heavy Weapons go through ammo so quickly they have ammo-loading equipment attached. Often this attaches to a backpack or belt. Backpack units can be loaded with additional clips from another trooper.
Wall/Door Bash - Very strong creatures(Mutons) or power armoured individuals can use a ramming motion to bring down walls and doors. This is somewhat effective against creatures, but the Vertical Bash works much better.
Vertical Bash - Strong troopers and power armoured individuals can hold a heavy weapon above their head and then bring it down upon the head of an opponent. Because of its slow speed, best used from behind. Gauranteed kill or knock-out.
Braceing - Heavy weapons usually have a nasty recoil and are very inaccurate unless fired at low frequency on the move. If a trooper braces they can also fire very accurately at 'full automatic'.

Launched Munitions

Launching Tube - All launched munitions come out of some kind of launching tube. Some are those that compose certain heavy weapons. Another common type is the shoulder mounted launching tube. These come in the one use and loaded variety.
Preloaded Tubes - These are very powerful and usually equipped with more electronics and options. However, they are expensive and disappear after one shot.
Reuseable Tubes - These are reloaded with varying munitions. Munition can vary from dumb-fire to guided. Damage types are much more variant, including stun and poison gas as well as HE and Incendiary.
Unguided Munitions - Unguided munition can be fired at a low trajectory for greater accuracy, or high trajectory to seek out targets behind cover. A low and high shot can be fired at the same target so they arrive at the same time.
Guided Munitions - The most powerful guidance system is the Blaster Bomb's guidance system. Other ones can be aimed and will adjust themselves in flight, even trying for specific manuevers.

Rockets

Tubes - Rocket tubes are self-contained units that are disposed of once they are used.
Racks - Rocket racks are a collection of tubes arranged in a fashion that they can be fired simeoultaneously.
Remote Firing/Tripods - Rocket racks or tubes can be set up on tripods and remotely fired.

Missles

Tube/Racks - SS(Surface to Surface) missles are usually fired out of tubes or missle racks. Some HWPs use open-air firing.
Remote Firing/Tripods - Missles can be set up on the same kind of platform and fired remotely like rockets.
Wire Guided Missles - When these are fired you direct them as they move along. Of course there are considerable constraints in terms of turning and how often you can make adjustments.
Laser Guided Missles - With certain alien technology laser guided missles have very good collision detection and have better maneuverability then the wire guided missles.
Alien Guidance - Alien guidance systems can give missles nearly the same maneuverability of the Blaster Bomb.

Edited by sir_schwick, 27 November 2004 - 01:07 AM.


#52 Qonfused

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 10:02 AM

in real life soldiers won't use dubble weapons, still its a game, but im agains dubble weapons in xenocide. and if it where to be done. make some realistic modifiers, couse if you fired two beretas at the same time at a fast rate, you would't be able to hit a house at 50m.
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#53 sir_schwick

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 10:49 AM

I imagine that with power-armour recoil would not be a problem. Maybe Akimbo fire with pistols and rifles would only be possible by power-armoured troopers and alien(Mutons).

#54 Tuoppi

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 11:48 AM

It is not so much a recoil issue, as it is simply impossible to concentrate on both hands at the same time. Try it with just flaslights, and without totally focusing on aiming you won't hit even close. Then add recoil, movement, moving target, combat stress and such... You get far more hits with just one gun.

In human warfare a single hit is usually all it takes to incapacitate or kill, and if target wears armor that one shot cannot penetrate, usually a hundred shots still won't. Other issue is that even in close range combat accuracy easily outweighs damage potential, and if needed we have automatic weapons that are way more efficient than dual guns.

However aliens might behave a bit different, as they are not as sensitive to damage that they receive (so i have understood) although their armor gets pierced about as easily as human ones. Thus there is need to cause multiple wounds, hit many times and have autofire, even dual guns.

Human tech has submachine guns, assault rifles and machineguns, all outweigh dual weapons in their class by far. (Pistols, rifles, assault rifles) So only possible use for dual guns would be alien weapon technology, if plasma weapons have too low rate of fire. Still i would prefer modifications like powerpack/coolant system in backpack more.

Double light guns might be a viable option, in UFO entry specifically, but the accuracy penalty should be HUGE, way more than 50% because you double your ROF, and can barely aim with one gun at its full capacity

#55 sir_schwick

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 01:07 PM

Lets assume that alien technology and elite warriors(Mutons, Commanders) are trained in those techniques. Over time, as you learn about these techniques through research you will also be able to replicate the multiple-target tracking through training. I also imagine that computers help them immensely with target tracking and multiple-contacts. With Terran equipment two-handed fire is much better.

Also, the purpose of run and gun is so enemy troops take some cover. I think that should be a reflex option, if you are near cover.

#56 Qonfused

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 03:59 PM

Still don't like it. it would just be to rambo. this is special forces here, not hollywood.
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#57 sir_schwick

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 07:47 PM

Still don't like it. it would just be to rambo. this is special forces here, not hollywood.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Aliens are rambo and humans remain special forces. It makes Mutons that much more dangerous, since some do like Akimbo Rifles with Alien Grenade launcher attached.

#58 Snakeman

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Posted 25 November 2004 - 09:26 PM

I sort of like the special moves of the higher ranked soldiers on either side. It sounds like a flourish to a particular tactic that's seen, probably on the between-turns animations.

I think that with appropriate penalties, most of these sound pretty good to me. For example, one penalty besides accuracy/movement penalties, you could slap on excessive TU usage to many of them to a point that you'd only see the results on the between-turn screen.

In other words, use reserved TUs for much of this such that, whatever tactic you select, it has to work in accordance with reserving TUs for it (especially if it incorporates a movement with firing, no matter the weapon(s), single or double handed). Not only would it it require a high TU count to execute, the soldier pretty much has to stay where he's at for a couple turns to maximize his outcome. The tactic may or may not work of course, but I believe a price tag on the combos is important.

#59 Qonfused

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 04:58 AM

in real life, the penalty for using two guns are so graet, that no one that know what their talking about does it.

you wont hit shuckeroonies with a ak-47 at auto fire, why would you use two then. if you allow xenocide troops to use two weapons, you would destroy the spec forces feel that x-com: ufo had
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#60 RustedSoul

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 05:39 AM

I can only see dual being good for pistols/smgs with laser sights as most rifles require 2 hands to function properly/effectively.

ok.. also dual stun batons ;)

#61 Tuoppi

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 06:17 AM

Although sir_schwick's list had some very nice features, (rifle melee, run and gun) i do not like the idea of rank-affected abilities. Personally i would like to have a under slung small launcher attached to a plasma rifle. Optionally stun/HE/IN bombs.

#62 sir_schwick

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 10:06 AM

I am editing my post and removing Akimbo pistol and rifle abilities abilities. About the only soldiers who can fire Akimbo Rifles reasonably are Mutons, and that is because of alien electronics, strenght, and training.

Run and gun was to allow you to cross open spaces or along low hedges with some chance of creating covering fire.

Stun grenades would also make it, and launchers could be modified to accept alien stun bombs.

The dive shoot is hihgly inaccurate, but with pistol or rifle allows to you at least suprise someone stalking behind you.

The door abilities were there so you would have some chance when entering a room.

#63 T-1

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 10:17 AM

Weapon attachments?

my thread:
ahem: http://www.xcomufo.c...?showtopic=5556
and page 5 of revitalizing firearms:
http://www.xcomufo.c...pic=4774&st=140

#64 Snakeman

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Posted 26 November 2004 - 11:03 PM

Ah yes, the revitalizing firearms thread. One of my favorites. Great discussion and brainstorms that one.

#65 sir_schwick

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 01:16 AM

It is very important that aliens have the same equipment abilities as X-COM.

Heavy Weapons are of two varieties: launched munitions and fully automatic. The first are your Autocannons, Cannister Launchers, Supernova Guns. The second are Machine Guns, Plasma Repeaters, Laser Repeaters, etc. Slower then the rest, these weapons are perfect for those hardened spots.

Rifles have the most general purpose uses of any of the weapon classes. They can accomplish most combat and mobile roles. They are neither masters of firepower or mobility, but in between.

Pistols allow soldiers to move with stealth and fleetness. One handed operation also allows soldiers to easily negotiate terrrain with various tools and equipment. You can even have a pistol for infiltration and take out the rifle for serious action.

#66 T-1

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 05:12 PM

What about SMGs?

#67 sir_schwick

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 11:33 PM

I imagine the light SMGs are heavy pistols and the other SMGs are light rifles. This means that they shouldn't be fired with one hand, but require a lot less TUs. In my future Rifles thread I will discuss them as light Rifles for close combat.

#68 NKF

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Posted 02 April 2005 - 07:08 AM

I'm coming in late, so a few of my thoughts will appear to be random at best:

The only practical benefit using two pistols at the same time would be to:

a - have two different types of pistols out at the same time - but you concentrate on using only one pistol at a time. This was how it's done in UFO/TFTD - and I'm quite happy the way it is. Simple enough - but it means that it's pointless to have two of the same pistols out at the same time unless you're just doing it to double your ammo.

b - (which is what this discussion is mainly about) to double the rate of fire at the loss of accuracy and control - you'd also suffer a heck of time when it comes to reloading both weapons.

c - To look cool. Yep. At the very least, firing two handguns simultaneously sound a bit more practical than shooting your handguns 'gangsta' style - where the shooter risks getting hurt by the ejected bullet cases (not a problem for laser pistols though...).

Rather than firing both weapons at exactly the same time, perhaps the soldiers alternate weapons. Aim and fire a bullet with one handgun, then aim and fire with the other, and then aim and fire with the other. Basically a very minor reduction in firing speed - and ammo is consumed from alternating weapons.

This would be useful for speeding up firing two slow handguns (i.e. no autofire), but would offer no benefit whatsoever to a semiautomatic.

Surely this can be done a lot better with one gun? Of course it would. But it would be quite beneficial for energy based weapons that need to cool down. It would practically halve the cooldown time as you are alternating between two weapons. With lasers, I don't see why you couldn't use both of them simultaneously as there's no recoil. What you're essentially getting is a 'wide' laser (well, two beams spaced out by half a foot or so) - or you could rake a wide cone shaped area by aiming up the middle and then slowly pointing the two pistols away from each other. (does low damage, but you're bound to hit something (or things))

Mixing two different types of pistols should provide a bit of a problem, as I'm sure the various handguns will behave and handle differently. You can't just mix a magnum with a high speed plasma revolver. The easiest solution (game-wise) would be to just ignore all the 'real-ness' and just fire both guns based on the slowest weapon. Or only allow dual firing with identical weapons - but players would complain about that for sure. I know I would. ;)

Pistols shouldn't be any less accurate than rifles - or to be more precise, the accuracy fall-off with range should drop a lot faster for pistols than rifles, so pistols will be useful at short to medium ranges while rifles are useful from short to long ranges.

Perhaps the ability to fire two handguns at the same time should be part of the unique 'special skills' that's discussed elsewhere (ambidextrity) and also influenced by the soldier's personal skill level with pistols in general *.

- NKF

P. S.: Actually, in Apocalypse, you never really fire both weapons at the same time. The dominant hand fires the main weapon normally, while the other hand fires the other gun at various intervals. So your soldiers do indeed struggle a bit with the second weapon. It's not so obvious with slow weapons, but do try it with the toxiguns. Watch how the second toxigun empties its clip a lot slower than the main toxigun.

* I've got this idea where soldiers don't just have a single accuracy (or whatever it's called in Xenocide) skill, but a selection of weapon affinities to go with it. Basically one single accuracy skill that applies to all firearms. Then a small subset divided into pistol, rifle and heavy weaponry for specialisation. When a soldier earns combat experience, you can choose to progress in a general or specific combat field. Say you earn a single point. That one point will earn you a 1 in general, or you could invest it in a specific subset and earn 1.25 for that skill alone. You could even attach special benefits to earning a high levels in the specific weapon subsets - like special moves and attacks with those types of weapons (As mentioned earlier in the thread). Like firing two weapons at the same time, or being able to reload a lot faster, or whatever. This would make each soldier truly unique. Some would work better with rifles, some would work better with pistols, etc. Or if you choose to go general, you'll do great with all weapons, but this is the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none solution and you don't get the benefits of specialisation.

It sounds like something more suited to an RPG where you only have to manage a smaller number of characters (or just one).

Edited by NKF, 02 April 2005 - 07:16 AM.

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#69 sir_schwick

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 06:13 PM

Surely this can be done a lot better with one gun? Of course it would. But it would be quite beneficial for energy based weapons that need to cool down. It would practically halve the cooldown time as you are alternating between two weapons. With lasers, I don't see why you couldn't use both of them simultaneously as there's no recoil. What you're essentially getting is a 'wide' laser (well, two beams spaced out by half a foot or so) - or you could rake a wide cone shaped area by aiming up the middle and then slowly pointing the two pistols away from each other. (does low damage, but you're bound to hit something (or things))


I orginally supported the akimbo idea, but have dropped that support. It makes sense that weapons with large recycle times could have multiple barrels built into them. Considering the recoil issue is not a problem, I could imagine a two or three barrell rotating barrel drum for use in Laser Pistols and Laser Rifles. Heavy Lasers would probably use six or eight barrels for high-volume, strength fire, like a mini-gun.

#70 NKF

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 02:58 AM

Curiously enough, when clicking on Francais by accident and playing the game in French for a few minutes, I think the Laser Rifle's (Fusil Laser) opening description was 'Le Revolver Laser...'

I don't know the language, and am referencing the english translation in the English Ufopaedia, but I think a literal translation of that would be "The Laser Revolver..."

That puts me in mind that the laser rifle had some sort of revolving system inside of it. But I don't think lasers would suffer too much from heat as plasma weapons would. Of course, the lenses in the barrel might get affected by the intense heat caused by the focused light beam (ruby lenses, glass or whatever it is they use in laser). A couple of barrels that rotate the focus lenses may actually make sense. But then again I don't know how real lasers work - I just prefer the science fiction lasers that work 'just because'. ;)


---

I just played Halo today, and the pistol's now one of my most favourite weapons -- for now. Haven't seen anything higher than the rocket launcher so I wouldn't know what else there is. Yeah, one pistol's enough. Two's really just for the novelty factor.

I've always found games with pistols (barring Doom) rely on skill and accuracy rather than sheer firepower (unless you're firing an uzi or some other semiautomatic like a Beratta or a Glock). You've got machine guns and the like for your burst-fire goodness.

- NKF

Edited by NKF, 04 April 2005 - 03:04 AM.

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#71 sir_schwick

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 10:15 AM

True, the barrel would not overheat but the lenses might. A rotating lense drum would be much smaller and could actually lend itself to being a very high ROF weapon. Larger versions(rifle,heavy) would be able to have higher focus strength and add gear and stability for better aim(eye aiming a pistol is difficult).