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#1 Aosar

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 03:33 PM

Okay I don't know how much I can have "artistic freedom," but I'll take some anyways :D, and I indeed am open to critique(spelling?)!

Heavy Cannon is an evolved form of shotgun that has little in common with it's weaker brethren. Early during the design phase it was concluded that the Heavy Cannon should be semiautomatic to comliment it's bulky size. Unlike common shotguns the Heavy Cannon sports a 6 shell clip for fast reloading in the heat of battle. However what truly makes the Heavy Cannon original is the fact that besides armor piercing shells it also can fire special "mini-granades" that upon impact explode or burst into flame.

That's only a early draft and I will work on it more. I was thinking that the auto-cannon could be based on the basic heavy cannon desing...

I know that this is bretty weak, but it's 02:47 and I can't come up with anything better right now, I'll probably come up with better stuff later today/tomorrow...

Oh! And if there is any consept art for the heavy cannons it would be nice if you would lead me to that...
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#2 GreatGold

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Posted 07 July 2003 - 09:29 PM

Hey -

Aside from the fact that we put a freeze on new entries until the "Very Important" thread ones were completed, nice job. I've got some comments, and links, that perhaps will give you ideas. Also, if you would like to see the graphic, it is available on the Arts Asset Page. Also, if you get a chance, please look over the Creative Text Asset List at CTD Asset List.

On to the critique. We are going for a generally futuristic approach, which gives you both flexabilty and creative licence. So don't feel that you have to be too tied down, just keep it within the realm of "possible reality" - especially things that are possible in the next decade or two. Likewise, the more hard science and engineering in the entry, the better. If its too much, we can always edit it out (unlikely though). and its easier to take out than put in.

Here are some links that might give you some inspiration:
First, lets think about the Ammo Options. What are we going for here? .50 caliber? 40mm shells? So thats first, its up to you. But, then depending on the ammo, I would go from there. If you want to go with the 40mm scenerio, I would look into the standard M79/M203 situation. Then figure out how to make it a cannon. Here are some basic links.
M203
M79
And my perosnal faovrite, the MK19

But if your going for the .50 caliber, something like a repeating Barett would be good. Here are some links to examples of those.
M82
M107
M85
And for when you just HAVE to kill every mofo around the M2.

Really, its up to you to decide on the direction, and of course we are here to help you along the path :D . Some things you might want to think about are advanced munition types, the target aquisition systems, how is the recoil taken care of, how have they made it small enough for an individual soldier to use and fire on the run. Things of that nature.

Nice start!
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#3 Aosar

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 12:08 PM

Hmm... I'm thinking that it should be 20mm gun, 'cause 20mm rounds already have HE-ammo so inceneary(spelling?) should be only a slight modification. It has to include some sort of recoil dampener thingy...

And as for artistic freedom, I ment how much can I change the original consept of the heavy cannon?
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#4 GreatGold

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 01:24 PM

Hey -

You can change from the original as much as you like/want/need. In fact, the more so the better. Since you want to do 20mm rounds, check out the MK19 link. It is basically a 20mm grenade launcher with automatic... I think I read somewhere that there is an upgraded version in the works as well.

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#5 Nickisimo

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 01:35 PM

That would probably be better anyway since we're going for a more futuristic appeal. Perhaps some sort of uranium-tipped ammo for the 20mm gun, and I'm not sure what for the incindenary stuff. That would definitely add some more flavor to the auto-cannon(which i always hated). <_<

#6 GreatGold

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:22 PM

Hey -

Yeah, Nick, your right. If the Heavy Cannon has been sold to the player a little better, I'm sure it would have been used more. I also never have liked it, but not really for any specific reason. Sure it's heavy, but it will take a lot of stuff down. Hopefully we can change that...

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#7 Breunor

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:24 PM

Something to keep in mind is that until the 3D model concept is finished, the design will have some impact on the text description of it. So I'd check out the concept art done so far regarding this or any weapon, just to make sure what you describe isn't the opposite of what it looks like.

#8 Kenshiro

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 02:56 PM

Having had personal experience on the MK 19, I note that the weapon weighs too much for one person to tote around without dissasembling and carrying the pieces seperately. However, I have to say putting 40mm grenades downrange on automatic indeed kicks donkey for the lord.

On the other hand, there is a 25mm automatic weapon in development that might fit the bill for what we're looking for. May I recommend looking into the Objective Crew Served Weapon, which I believe is intended to replace both the Mk 2 .50 cal and the Mk 19 in certain roles, especially the squad and platoon heavy weapons role.

OCSW

#9 Breunor

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 04:36 PM

That is a nice weapon, but I wonder if it's also too big for a single soldier to carry and fire from a standing position. Looks like at least 50 pounds with ammo, so it's right on that line I guess. Perhaps a non-auto version would be lighter, as this one says it can fire 250 per minute-more like an auto cannon in full auto.

#10 Deimos

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 05:39 PM

That is one badass gun and it doesn't look a million miles away from the OICW so it would fit in with the rifle tech level.

Breu 50lbs isn't that much, British marines and above carry that much in their burgens :)

#11 GreatGold

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Posted 08 July 2003 - 05:55 PM

Hey -

Yup, that was it, the OCSW. I think that might be worth looking at for inspiration.

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#12 Nickisimo

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 07:42 AM

Breu 50lbs isn't that much, British marines and above carry that much in their burgens 


Good point. We have to remember that these are elite soldiers, and most soliders carry at least 60 or 70 lbs of gear, and much more for PJ's or Delta Force or whatever. We can only assume that the Power Suits themselves weigh at least...5 slugs(sorry, shameless carryover from another topic) :LOL:

#13 GreatGold

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 07:50 AM

Hey -

That 5 slugs is 72.969515 kilograms! Or, for the unconverted among us, 160.8702435 pounds! I wish I could carry that much with ease :P

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#14 Breunor

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 09:29 AM

Just eat burgers and fries for a year, and you can GG! :D I agree that soldiers carry 70# of gear, but their weapon usually doesn't make up 80% of that weight. I've worn about 75# or armor before, and agree that's not an issue for the soldiers to do. Since they aren't going to go into missions with full combat gear normally used on patrols anyways, the 50# weapon would work fine. Might put the total weight around 90-100#, which justifies the slow-down on weaker soldiers.

#15 Nickisimo

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Posted 10 July 2003 - 09:40 AM

Yep, and the nice little thing is that forcing the weaklings to carry around heavy weapons raises their STR.

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#16 mikker

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 04:16 PM

For the OCSW, the "handle" looks too much like something for a stationary weapon, so that should be changed. The gun itself....lack detail....very blank, but that could be changed as well...

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#17 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 06:57 PM

Breu 50lbs isn't that much, British marines and above carry that much in their burgens 


Good point. We have to remember that these are elite soldiers, and most soliders carry at least 60 or 70 lbs of gear, and much more for PJ's or Delta Force or whatever. We can only assume that the Power Suits themselves weigh at least...5 slugs(sorry, shameless carryover from another topic) :LOL:

I know I keep making reference to the bravo two zero patrol, but I see them as some of the most elite soldiers in the world, and that is pretty much what the X-Corps are meant to b innit? Well, they each carried 209 pounds worth of kit, not including the 1 gallon piss bottle one of em had to carry and their rifle. And the X-Corps hardly carry anything in comparison, only their gun, the armour and a couple of nades. I'm sure the stronger troops would be able to stand and fire the gun.

#18 Cubik

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 10:22 PM

"The Objective Crew-Served Weapon (OCSW) will provide a lightweight, two-man portable, single replacement weapon systems for a current 40mm MK 19 grenade machine gun and the caliber .50 heavy machine gun."

Taken from a site about the OCSW:
www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/ rifles/ocsw.htm
It does look a little to big to be carried by one person...but then again, it can always be scaled down.

#19 GreatGold

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Posted 12 July 2003 - 11:09 PM

"The Objective Crew-Served Weapon (OCSW) will provide a lightweight, two-man portable, single replacement weapon systems for a current 40mm MK 19 grenade machine gun and the caliber .50 heavy machine gun."

Guys, I was just using those examples as something to gain inspiration from, not as guidlines to be followed. For instance, I think it would be cool to create a completely new weapon concept, that just happens to draw from the MK19 and M82. Best of both worlds, and something unique to Xenocide.

It really doesnt have to even be remotely similar to any of the examples I posted, or it could be similar to one I didn't use. Your call.

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#20 Kenshiro

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 05:34 AM

Note the OCSW weighs 30 pounds, which is actually one man portable. The ammo and tripod are why the Army intends it to be two man portable, in addition (presumably) to having to conduct barrel changes and have someone carry and use a spare barrel and clearing rod kit.

However, given the limits on what our troops can carry because of an equipment grid and the fact our game concept pretends it is not necessary to fire an automatic weapon from a stand of some kind to hit targets (which believe me, in real life you will not hit the broad side of a barn with a machine gun or automatic grenade launcher unless it's 1) on a bipod, 2) on a tripod/pintle mount, or 3) six meters away or less) or conduct barrel changes/immediate action procedures, we can easily adapt this idea for our liking.

Besides, I came up with a concept model which I posted to the Model Concept thread. A possible textured version (done up in photoshop, not a renderer alas) is also available.

Comments?

BTW, since there's quite a kick to these things you would be looking into the sight from several inches away at a small display or through a helmet link of some kind, not in the traditional scope view method.

Edited by Kenshiro, 16 July 2003 - 05:36 AM.


#21 Nickisimo

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 06:36 AM

I think most guns with a caliber higher than .3006 can't even use a conventional scope since the kickback is strong enough to push it into your eye. :puke:

That said, it'd be nice to see your char with an auto-cannon stop and do a little bi-pod set up when he stops moving, but that leads to the question, "shouldn't that cost TU's?" Maybe he only does it when he goes to a kneeling position. :idea:

#22 Kenshiro

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Posted 16 July 2003 - 06:55 AM

The kneeling position is really no more useful than standing when it comes to autofire. You'd have to go to the prone to use the bipod unless you found something to set up on and ground the bipod legs with and that would not only be a pain to code but also a gameplay balance issue.

#23 Guest_drewid_*

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 01:09 AM

Our troopers are all built like Schwarzeneggar and could pick up and fire a hwp weapon with one hand if it fell off.

Seriously though, I wouldn't worry about weapons needing supports. People are used to Heros toting unfeasably large weapons....it looks good.

#24 Deimos

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Posted 17 July 2003 - 05:37 PM

Our troopers are all built like Schwarzeneggar and could pick up and fire a hwp weapon with one hand if it fell off.

Seriously though, I wouldn't worry about weapons needing supports. People are used to Heros toting unfeasably large weapons....it looks good.

Drewid speaks truth :)

Look at any of the Warhmmer 40k troopers. Some of those Devestator weapons are hoooge :D

#25 Breunor

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 09:40 AM

Add the fact that we can say a composite material is now (10 years from now) being used that has the strength needed for weapon construction, but weighs much less. So that 30-50 pound weapon weighs 15-20 pounds now. And everybody is on the Weider program, and they've got rock-solid bods. "I'm able to fire my autocannon on full auto, while still maintaining my feminine physique." :D

#26 Deimos

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 11:04 AM

(Best Arnie voice) "What are you laughing at, this is my best posing routine" :D

#27 Breunor

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 11:31 AM

I have a polaroid of when Arnie and I met, if I could only find it... pissy Breunor wracks his brain trying to remember where the picture is packed away...

I do a very good impersonation, but funny how I didn't even try when meeting him...

#28 Nickisimo

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 12:04 PM

Fear? :whatwhat:

I know I'd be too scared to impersonate Arnold if i saw him in person. You know someone I wouldn't be afraid of intimidating...Alan Greenspan. :LOL:

Getting back to the topic...yes, these are super-troopers, but they're still human. They can't whip that thing around like it's a water pistol. Something definitely needs to be done to make it sound more like an automatic machine gun too. In the game it's nothing more than a heavier sound of a rifle. I don't think too many M249's sound like pop-guns IRL. You get prone, steady that thing and lay down a huge base of fire. I'm not sure how this would work in the game. I mean, what would be the point in making a machine-gun sound, showing multiple flashes coming from the gun, but only one bullet going towards Joe Sectiod(he's a good friend of mine, btw, nice guy). Any thoughts? :unsure:

Edited by Nickisimo, 18 July 2003 - 12:04 PM.


#29 Kenshiro

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Posted 18 July 2003 - 06:39 PM

The autocannon should definately sound like hot lead and death. I think the smart gun sound effect from Aliens is the standard to aspire to for that.
Smartgun

Either that or a nice M-60ish sound:
M-60

or even an MG-2:
MG-2

However, the Heavy Cannon should make a single satisfying "thoomp" sound and then make a nice sinuses-cleared-out-it's-so-damn-loud detonation when it hits.

Explosion

or

Another Explosion

Edit: Link

Edited by Kenshiro, 18 July 2003 - 06:41 PM.


#30 Cubik

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 07:51 AM

The slight jingle in the M60 sound, is that from the belt being feed into the gun?

I vote for a slighty edited M-60 as the Autocannon sound. It has that heavy machinegun sound that the Autocannon carves :P

#31 Kenshiro

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 09:38 AM

No, the jingle is from the disintegrating belt and brass being ejected and hitting the ground/invariably large pile of accumulated brass.

Somewhere in between the M-60 and the MG-2 would be my vote. The MG-2 has a nice throatiness that just says you're about to be riddled by big holes, while the M-60 has a business-like stacatto that carries across on speakers well.

Note: Brass=shellcasings for the unitiated.

Edited by Kenshiro, 19 July 2003 - 09:39 AM.


#32 miceless

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 10:06 AM

LOL, i just played the Aliens noise and my brother said "Why are you playing the machine gun noise from Aliens?" :)

The slight jingle in the M60 sound, is that from the belt being feed into the gun?

That or them being ejected.

I vote for a slighty edited M-60 as the Autocannon sound. It has that heavy machinegun sound that the Autocannon carves :P

I concur.

Edited by miceless, 19 July 2003 - 10:07 AM.

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 02:27 PM

there are stories of b17s (I think it was b 17) having a guy with a snow shovel to clear shellcases from around the gunners feet and shovel them out of the door..

#34 Aosar

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 07:43 AM

However, the Heavy Cannon should make a single satisfying "thoomp" sound...


That would make it a granade launcher, wouldn't it? But can a 40mm granade launcher have armor piercing ammo?! And how much is detail is needed in the mechanical description of the gun?
Just wondering, because the gun has two issues that need solving before it's even remotely realistic, they are recoil and weight... :blink: ?

Hmm, doesn't the consept art for the heavy cannon look more like a rifle? And remember; shape defines function, or something in that general direction...
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#35 Kenshiro

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 08:22 AM

Going by X-Com, this thing is line of sight for certain. We could specify that the rounds are rocket assisted, reducing the recoill; only a small charge would be needed to eject the round (the thoomp), then a small solid rocket motor would kick in a few meters after firing (probably should add a hissing noise for that). Technically you could then view it as a rocket launcher, but I think the combination of charge and rocket ignition can make it a cannon. Rifle grenades used in combination with an assault rifle aren't truly RPGs, so this is kind of along those lines.

On the other hand, it's definatley not a conventional rifle - with a barrel that big there's no man alive who could withstand the kick of a regular rifle with that kind of caliber. At 35mm, it's about 10mm larger than a .50 cal, and those things hurt your shoulder even when you've got em on a tripod and usually dig themselves in after a shot or two.

Truthfully, though, there really isn't a real life weapon to compare this thing to. The closest thing I can really think of is a recoilless rifle or an anti-tank rocket. A true cannon, having a closed breech, would really be unfeasible in a man-portable scale unless you use some kind of rocket assist - the kick of an actual piece of artillery fired either from the hip or shoulder would send a man flying back with broken bones and some serious impact trauma. I used to hear stories about people who mistook the term "knee mortar" and ended up with compond pile fractures. So, we've got to improvise if we're actually going to try to explain this thing actually working.

#36 j'ordos

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 08:38 AM

If it's rocket-propelled, and the rocket kicks in only after a few metres, what kind of penetration power would the round have when fired at a target at point-blank range? Maybe it's some sort of small rocket that kicks in as soon as the round exits the barrel?
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#37 Kenshiro

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 08:44 AM

Backblast and splash damage would be concerns in real life, but what the hey, let's go with that.

#38 Aosar

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 11:18 AM

I used to hear stories about people who mistook the term "knee mortar" and ended up with compond pile fractures.


:eek: Ow!

At 35mm, it's about 10mm larger than a .50 cal, and those things hurt your shoulder even when you've got em on a tripod and usually dig themselves in after a shot or two.


Hmm, I recall a granade launcher that uses 40mm ammo and usable and portable by a single man/woman(see I'm even politically correct! :LOL: ), but that wasn't shoulder supported(or what ever it is called)... What caliber ammo does the m203 use?
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#39 Kenshiro

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 12:11 PM

The M203 uses 40mm grenades (not the same ones that go in a Mk 19, mind you). However, the M203 relies on fuse-detonated (mechanical, not the wick kind) pyrotechnics in the ogive to produce its effects, rather than ballistic force from a solid projectile. The projectile only travels at around 400 fps, about the same as a paintball round if someone's shooting hot, with a maximum accurate range of only 150m for point targets and 400m actual maximum range. The M-203 has to be fired at a high arc to hit targets, and its woefully unpredictable to aim in any kind of wind, although there are those country boys out there who somehow seem to hit in any kind of conditions.

There are bean-bag rounds and stingball projectiles in 40mm chamberings, but these generally do not fit in the M203. There are also flares and other types of signal rounds that I'm not going to get into. The above refers to combat data for the M203, using HE/HEDP type rounds.

#40 Aosar

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 10:01 AM

Finally! After blood, sweath and tears(read: sitting down in front of the computer and pulling your weight...) I have completed a "gold" candidate for the heavy cannon x-net text...

Edited by Aosar, 08 August 2003 - 01:43 PM.

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#41 Cubik

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 11:03 AM

I used to hear stories about people who mistook the term "knee mortar" and ended up with compond pile fractures.


:eek: Ow!

At 35mm, it's about 10mm larger than a .50 cal, and those things hurt your shoulder even when you've got em on a tripod and usually dig themselves in after a shot or two.


Hmm, I recall a granade launcher that uses 40mm ammo and usable and portable by a single man/woman(see I'm even politically correct! :LOL: ), but that wasn't shoulder supported(or what ever it is called)... What caliber ammo does the m203 use?

Couldn't we just say that the Power and Flight armors have insuit computers and motors that adjusts for and lessens the effect of kickback? The suits could increase accuracy (v1+?) too, by lessening said kickback and dampening the effect on muscle shakes that happen when you are nervous (and when you try to aim with something heavy).

#42 Aosar

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 11:08 AM

Couldn't we just say that the Power and Flight armors have insuit computers and motors that adjusts for and lessens the effect of kickback?


Well, they should have, considering they are exoskeletons... But that still doesn't explain how the soldiers are able to use heavy cannon without power- or flying armor...

Or is that at all what you were talking about?

Edited by Aosar, 24 July 2003 - 11:09 AM.

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#43 Cubik

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 11:55 AM

I just think that the soldiers should suffer either an accuracy penalty when firering the Heavy Cannon without a suit, or they should have to take extra TU firering it (hold tighter, and lean into the kickback). Of course, since this is a game, nothing needs to be realistic. There is always a thin line between the wanted realism and when a game gets painfully tedious, due to too much realism.

Edited by Cubik, 24 July 2003 - 11:55 AM.


#44 Aosar

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 12:01 PM

I just think that the soldiers should suffer either an accuracy penalty when firering the Heavy Cannon without a suit, or they should have to take extra TU firering it


Exactly, the whole idea - atleast in the original - behind power armor was that due to the fact that it was a elerium powered exoskeleton you could have larger amount of armor covering the soldier, but then would there be so much armor that it would negate the strenght benefit of the elerium powered exoskeleton?

However, isn't this the wrong place to discuss(sp?) armors?

Edited by Aosar, 24 July 2003 - 12:02 PM.

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#45 Breunor

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 12:20 PM

I suggest staying away from rocket propelled ammo, instead you could build in shock dampening gear, similar to the steadycam harness or what was used in Aliens for the smart guns. We'd talked about using this before actually, so this would be the best weapon to apply it to.

#46 j'ordos

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 05:17 PM

But then you can't really call it a grenade launcher, as that will never develop the necessary speed for an AP-round to be effective (I think :huh: ).
I was thinking some bazooka-like weapon, but with a smaller and more efficient propellant, which wouldn't give such a large fireburst at the rear when fired. So you'd get (practically) no recoil, high velocity rounds, and man-portable/usable.
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#47 Kenshiro

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 05:41 PM

Some thoughts to throw at ya:

There's a considerable level of difference between dampening the kick of an automatic weapon and absorbing the recoil of an artillery round of any sort. It's about the same difference between stopping an unpowered scooter and stopping a rolling car. The "steadicam mount"/recoil absorber able to take the kick of an aritllery piece (which is what is used on a jeep-mounted self-propelled artillery system) is a big hydraulic chassis that weighs about 300 pounds.

By the way, a Bazooka is a rocket launcher or rocket propelled grenade launcher, depending on your definition and the specific version.

Truthfully, I think we can a little less concerned about semantics here. As long as the thing fires a projectile of some kind through a breech mechanism with a fused charge on the pointy end, we can safely consider it a cannon if it is rocket assisted or not. After all, the term heavy cannon as used in the original X-Com is really a misnomer after all. Here's the actual definition for the noun:

1. a shot in billiards in which the cue ball contacts one object ball and then the other
Synonyms: carom

2. lower part of the leg extending from the hock to the fetlock in hoofed mammals
Synonyms: shank

3. a large artillery gun that is usually on wheels

4. heavy automatic gun fired from an airplane

5. (medieval) a cylindrical piece of armor plate to protect the arm

6. heavy gun fired from a tank

Since the item in question is none of the above, we are pretty much assured that 1) the item we are making, which is man-portable, is not in fact a cannon in the traditional sense; 2) It's definately not a heavy cannon, which by the official terminology would probably be an artillery piece with a bore measured in inches and mounted to either a ship or a gun carriage towable only by a tracked vehicle; and 3) we, especially me for gettin' all technical on that a**, are silly for thinking about this so much, since this is a video game in which we could include a heavy cannon solely on precedent and ... get away with it? *puts a pinky finger to the corner of his mouth and raises an eyebrow*

(Not truly suggesting we do that, btw, but I think we can safely wrap this up, perhaps? There's lots to do and we can all get a gold sticker!)

Edited by Kenshiro, 24 July 2003 - 05:43 PM.


#48 tzuchan

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 06:11 PM

I don't know about you guys, but when I think of heavy cannons (Or more appriopriatly man portable cannons of the style seen in X-Com), I think of something along the lines of a shotgun, but modified to fire different types of ammo, such as a sabot discarding round as opposed to traditional shotgun shells...
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#49 Fred the Goat

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 06:51 PM

Heavy cannon makes me think of a big cannon that you can hold in your hands. Of course, that's because I played X-Com in my formulative years. D'oh. Maybe it's a heavy hand cannon (hand cannon, of course, not being a technical term in the first place)? I dunno. Call it a heavy slugthrower or somesuch. As long as it's heavy. Because heavy=good. And it really doesn't matter what we call the Good Cannon.

#50 Aosar

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 09:43 AM

A simple solution would be to tone the "cannon" from 40mm down to 20mm or even less. That should be enough? And that would give the AP ammo the extra oomph it got from being rocket powered... ? :blink:

Edit: Okay, I'm done... I hope it's not too "cheesy..."

Edited by Aosar, 08 August 2003 - 01:43 PM.

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