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#1 Simaldeff

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 04:40 PM

I hope every body have heard about nanotechnology ... well if not go search the net ...

I heard that there's an idea for v1+ to had the possibility that human will modify themself (create mutant ... it wont be xcom but xmen LOL) to fight alien ... so following that idea I was thing of nano-machine ... firstly u make it reaserchable at same lvl as laser and then u make it more power after more elaboratedparticul research ...

Uses? : well medecine : u can insert nano-m. in a human body to cure disease, tumor, bone-fracture, accelerate wound healing ...
powering up physically : nano-machine are quite popular for this in japanese's comics
powering up Psiconetically : use them as artificial neuron ... that will doulble ur brain capacity ...


ok show me u have imagination, bring idea on here

#2 GreatGold

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 04:57 PM

Hey -

There was some discussion between the CTD about using nano-tech in the MedKit entry. It will probably be in it still. However, in terms of actual game-play, I'm not sure if its been discussed. It could make an interesting addon in post v1.0, especially to make the MedKit more powerful. Something like first research MedKit, then NanoKit. Nanokit would just be more powerful.

However, using it to make units more powerful might be unfair to the aliiens, unless they had a similar option.

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#3 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 05:49 PM

Personally, I am opposed to any physical modification of your soldiers, it sort of takes away from the sense of humans versus aliens if you have an army geneboosted, nano-enhanced super soldiers slaughtering aliens left and right. And it would be pretty unbalanced unless the poor bugs got the same options. Where does the human end and the alien begin?

Besides, given the controversy over genetic engineering in simple foodstuffs, do you really think that the public would accept genetic engineering of soldiers?

Only if xcom was really losing bad would that even be considered, I think.
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#4 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 06:05 PM

Nano technology is actually not that far away, I watched something the other day that said they already had stuff built on an atomic level, just very basic stuff however.

For healing, I think it should be used. For physically, I think the issue is purely gameplay.

As for using neurotic enhansing abilities, I say definatly not. Not only is it impossible given the iota of knowledge we have of the human brain but I think it strays far too far from the original X-Com ideal.

Genetic engineering is a no-no as well IMO.

Edit: BTW, the bugs already genetically engineered all their own races, so balance is not a problem in that department.

Edited by Jim69, 19 July 2003 - 06:06 PM.


#5 Kexpakki

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 06:07 PM

Nah...Genetic Engineering is what the Aliens do.

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Posted 19 July 2003 - 06:17 PM

ya wot???? Did u post b4 readin mine or summint, if so I know its annoying I do it all the time :P

#7 Simaldeff

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 04:29 AM

well actually nano-tech was more a medkit idea ... but for physical it coulda goos alternative storyline :

1st - Moralist ---> udont modify enhance your soldier u only normally train them
2st - Half-Half --> u use volunteers and insert nanotech implant to enhance their abilities
3st - Inhuman --> u choose to fight fire with fire and create genetically modified soldier, witheout their own will ... and worst thing ...

that will be good to let the choice to the player ... after all in USA people eat OGM a lot (witheout knowing it most of the time) ...

we can make different final for this option ... like human win and became like aliens trying to take on other planet... (for the 3rd option)
or simply start to use UFOtech to travel and negotiate with other intellignet race ... (1st and 2nd)

a PLUS for the nanotech option ithink it's not that immoral after most of athletes and sports professionist are chimically enhanced with steroid and stuff like that ... nanotech is on the same logic ... plus it's not permanent ...
IT'S WAR after all and u know what HUMANS are able to do to win one.

ok that's all i've to say

#8 Breunor

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 07:14 AM

Genetically beefed up soldiers sounds like the Syndicate game. Cyborg enhancements to make you really tough. I think you'd find your funding drop the more people heard we used 'mutant humans' against aliens. They'd be seen in terror sites, and trying to wipe memories won't work with all the tech around these days to record the action. But like you mentioned, v1+ option particularly for multiplayer, that would be fun. Since there doesn't need to be alien tech trees for multiplayer, you could include trees for stuff like this. But that's a ways off still, literally like v3 or v4.

#9 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 08:32 AM

 
  after most of athletes and sports professionist are chimically enhanced with steroid and stuff like that ...

Doesn't the sports community frown on steroids as cheating?

Anyway, I feel that Nanotech would fit in really nicely with a medkit but the modification of soldiers would be kind of out of synch with the spirit of the game. Personally, I want to play Xcom, not an isometric Deus Ex (not that I have anything against Dx, it is a great game but not the same as Xcom)

Physical implants would either make the too easy or too hard. Too easy if the aliens and the humans or just the humans got it, too hard if just the aliens got it. Can you imagine a sectoid so strong that it could tear off your power armored leg and beat you to death with it? Neither can I
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#10 Simaldeff

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 10:39 AM

Well nanotech can be used to stuff not too "strong" :

like : helping u to apsorb more O2 from air, giving u some resistance to disease, or legerly enhance ur ability to stop bleeding, ...

but enhance more heavily ur soldier should be possible it'll be unbalancing but in conterpart u wont be able to use them near city or place where they can be seen by people or u will loose some funding ...

u know some stuff might be unbalancing at first glance but if u think well about it they are two edged sword with edge that is on u sharper than the other one ...

genetical modification will make ur organization unpopular and u'll have to work with something like 0$ a month making money with ur manufacturing or even worse u'll have some people leave ur organization and spy on u with aliens ...

BUT Xenocide ... if I understand well ... is a WAR for survival (at least a game that talk about it) and it sound logical that u can make players use some stuff that are immoral, after all some used Atomic Bomb to quickly end a war, or something like 3 million tones of explosive on a country as big as Washington State ... (sorry if what I just said might offend someone but this are only example of how human can use dirty weapon to win a war) ... so if the thing at stake is the survival of humanity something like enhanced soldier might not be the thing that will be let as last resort dont u think ... I think that is up to the player to decide if he will respect the moral or not ... after all "the end justifies the means".

#11 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 12:30 PM

Imo, physical augmentations should be for the aliens (if a way can be found to balance them) because it just seems like an ammoral,alien thing to do. Look at the floaters, they were augmented, and they are aliens. Genetic modification, physical implantation seems much more like something those sectoids would think up than something a human scientist would invent. Granted if Xcom was losing terribly to the aliens, to perserve the human race any steps would be taken. But unless xcom was getting their butts handed to them I don't think that xcom would even consider augmentation due to the ethics involved. If we start "improving" our troops like the aliens, what seperates us from the aliens? Where does the human stop and the alien begin?
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#12 Simaldeff

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Posted 20 July 2003 - 12:52 PM

I dont think that so far away from us ... after all from what alien can do in xcom I dont think they r worst than some other human ary that existed in the past and still exist now ... naturally if we r doing a game like "let's do something moral that we wont offend nobody" :cussing: we should simply tell that we dont kill alien but only capture them and give them candy to make them stay quiet ... but in war it's "F*** U with ur moral ... we r fighting a life or death stuff here go play ball else where"

If we start "improving" our troops like the aliens, what seperates us from the aliens? Where does the human stop and the alien begin?


Well that sure is a problem ... but i dont think human will be intelligent enough to not try to invade space (like the alien want to do) after they got there hand on this new an gorgeous technology

I think u r trying to seperate alien and human in Evil and Good ... let's make some grey fading in the middle of that White and Black battle ...

#13 Aosar

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 10:28 AM

But unless xcom was getting their butts handed to them I don't think that xcom would even consider augmentation due to the ethics involved.


I think the word 'bull,' is most fitting... If I was a (and soon I shall play one) Xenoside(or whatever) commander I would use any and all means necessay to get my boys back from the field in one piece(and the aliens in two or more :LOL: )...

If we start "improving" our troops like the aliens, what seperates us from the aliens? Where does the human stop and the alien begin?


Species, that is what diverses us from them ultimately anyways. In fighting the monsters we become the monsters ourselves. In the original game, near the end, x-com uses little to none human tech! And in both TFTD and Apocalypse you could have soldiers with implants...

Still, the balancing is a issue, but it can be solved easily. Personally I think that implants should reduce defence against psi attacks...

Nano-tech? Yeah, it should be in. Mainly because if the game is set 10 years from now, and we have plenty of nano-tech research going on as we speak(or type, if you may...)

I think u r trying to seperate alien and human in Evil and Good


Why is it that the aliens are seen as evil, if they are decended from the "Ammonites" - or what ever it was - they could just be pissed off about how we have f|_|cked 'mother earth' up...
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#14 Simaldeff

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 10:33 AM

thank Uuuuuuuuhuhuuhhuuuuuuuuuuu ;_;

finally someone that understand what I mean thx ... well at least someone as sadistic as me ...

I think letting the player to choose beetween more "moral levels" will add a great inovation to this game, and why not ? to "all the gaming world" :rock: well lets hope.

#15 Fred the Goat

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 12:11 PM

Looks to me like a style issue more than anything else. Think of it this way. We're making a game. The people playing it will be playing it as one of many many games they play. That's the mindset we have to make it in. Pretend we've personally made every game ever concieved. They each have their own catches and their own strategies and their own feel. Some of them involve genetically or cybernetically enhanced soldiers. The question is, is X-com one of the games that involves enhanced soldiers? In my mind, there's no question. Of course not. X-com is the game where you take a ragged handful of very human soldiers and fight off a horde of mindless aliens. Deus Ex, and Syndicate Wars, and Gene Wars, and System Shock II, and Halo are games where you control cyborgs and mutants.

[EDIT]

That said, mods are fun. Hooray for mods.

Edited by Fred the Goat, 21 July 2003 - 12:12 PM.


#16 Aosar

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 01:24 PM

But... But cyborgs and mutants are fun... :unsure:

Deus Ex, and Syndicate Wars, and Gene Wars, and System Shock II, and Halo are games where you control cyborgs and mutants.


The correct term is; nano-augmented... :cussing:

... :LOL:

Any ho3...

I personally enjoyed the diversity in the possible recruits that was in X-Com 3...

It IMO, both was politically correct and added to the gameplay...

Oh, allmost forgot...

Even tough augmenting personnel is rather not the way to go, is still nano-tech usable in various(sp?) different weabons and other equipment, but the gameplay impact is - like the technology itself - very small... :LOL:

(off topic trivia)
I think Deus Ex rox! In fact I'm currently listening to the backround music featured in the game! The UNATCO tune in fact...
(/off topic trivia)

Edited by Aosar, 21 July 2003 - 01:29 PM.

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#17 warhamster

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Posted 21 July 2003 - 09:46 PM

I don't want to really step on any toes (especially since I was too darn lazy to read all the posts) but my opinion on the matter is that, nano-tech doesn't actually have to be incorporated into game play. We can already presume that 1) Medikits use the technology that's why effects are almost instantaneous. 2) We can also presume that xcom soldiers have already been given some enhancement to their natural physical capabilties. That's why we can have 100+ Hp as compared to a civilian's 25. And that's why we move at more than 40 TU's.

An upgrade of the medkit later in the game is feasible, but really, why bother? The whole idea of xcom is that you can die in 1 shot. just like in real life. Having a soldier take 5 plasma shots before croaking is unbalanced and takes away the gameplay feel synonimous with xcom. We want players to use tactical innovation, not to depend on ultrapowerful terminator-like soldiers. This game should be more like 'Metal Gear' rather than 'Doom'. ya get what i'm saying? Finese is the word of the day.

#18 Simaldeff

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Posted 22 July 2003 - 11:12 AM

I'm okay with that ... but I'm not talking about making our soldier able to wistand 5 shot but only to be able to gain some TU or STR point 1 to 5 max ... of course having terminators are useless ...

if u r a human being , modified or not, receiving a plasma shot that will destroyur arterial system will kill ... dont u think ?
so the question isn't here, but it's more a storything, "will u use all mean or will preserve ur dignity in killing aliens?" that's the question ... Am I clear on this ?

#19 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 23 July 2003 - 05:39 PM

I understand now, I'm sorry, I was thinking more like you wanted Invlunerable super troops. I suppose that a modest increase in their stats wouldn't be such a bad thing for rookies...

Actually, you have a pretty good idea there. Different moral paths w/different endings would be very intresting and help improve replay value imo.
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#20 Simaldeff

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 02:59 AM

Finally we understand each others ...

naturally there is different stadium of modification like :

Nanotech lvl 1 : 1 or 2 point in reaction
1 to 5 in TU or in STR
Nanotech lvl 2 : 1 to 5 in reaction (heavy neural system modification)
5 to 10 in TU or in STR (muscle might broke from a so heavy and sudden change)
Nanotech lvl 3 : ... 10 and more in STR but a lot of soldier might die from implant rejection ... plus some problem with founding

and genetic :

genetic modification : some soldier (volunteers) are modified with the genic therapy, some more point in stamina and STR or TU (like 3 to 6) problem with founding and might create some tumor or other disease ('cause u use modified virus to modify the ADN of some cells)

genetic creation : DEEPLY IMMORAL but u can create human as strong as muton but u will lose a LOT of founding <--- something like deep last resort in super-human difficulty

u can change the point gain and the effect for the game play but I was thinking of something like that for modification and effects.

HP modif are light even in genetic creation because after all if u get shot the probability of being killed in a single shot are higth (due to the fact that a lot of important blood "pipe" are present everywhere is the human body)

ok that's all folks

#21 Breunor

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Posted 24 July 2003 - 07:32 AM

Having these mods could also play into the specialist idea. Perhaps you can only do one dna mod on a soldier, so you have to choose what to do-faster reactions, better sight/accuracy, or greater strength. I say leave health out of all this, as you say a plasma in the nose should anybody. So perhaps you mod soldier A for strength, allowing them to haul the autocannon around, while 2 get accuracy boosted to be snipers, etc.

#22 Fred the Goat

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Posted 28 July 2003 - 12:56 PM

Hmmm...I'm still wholly opposed to any kind of genetic, nanotech, cybertech, or other enhancement of soldiers outside of a mod, whether or not it affects gameplay. It just kills the X-Com feel. Nanokits are one thing, I think that would be a reasonable upgrade to medikits, but enhancing soldiers, even a little, just takes away from the game. <_<

#23 warhamster

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Posted 04 August 2003 - 04:45 PM

Hmmm...I'm still wholly opposed to any kind of genetic, nanotech, cybertech, or other enhancement of soldiers outside of a mod, whether or not it affects gameplay.  It just kills the X-Com feel.  Nanokits are one thing, I think that would be a reasonable upgrade to medikits, but enhancing soldiers, even a little, just takes away from the game.    <_<

My thoughts exactly.

#24 Aosar

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 10:41 AM

It just kills the X-Com feel. Nanokits are one thing, I think that would be a reasonable upgrade to medikits, but enhancing soldiers, even a little, just takes away from the game.


Why? How? :huh:
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#25 miceless

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Posted 05 August 2003 - 11:46 AM

I agree, if you start to modify them too much you disconnect them from being humans trying to save the planet. I would avoid any human genetic engineering or nanotech references.
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#26 Ancalagon

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Posted 11 August 2003 - 01:46 AM

It just kills the X-Com feel. Nanokits are one thing, I think that would be a reasonable upgrade to medikits, but enhancing soldiers, even a little, just takes away from the game.


Why? How? :huh:

One of the great points of x-com was that it was a team of the best human soldiers, scientists, and engeneers to save the planet when no other organization had done so. The whole point is that they're HUMAN, not grown in some plastic tube. Notice in the original x-com when you research the floater corpse your scientists don't get ready to perform the operation on a human. nano-tech I'm not wholly opposed to but it shouldn't improve things like hp and armor, it should only improve things that can be changed on a molecular level, such as increase strenth or faster reactions.

EDIT: I'm not for nano-tech particulaly either

Edited by Ancalagon, 11 August 2003 - 01:49 AM.


#27 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 11 August 2003 - 05:30 AM

It just kills the X-Com feel. Nanokits are one thing, I think that would be a reasonable upgrade to medikits, but enhancing soldiers, even a little, just takes away from the game.


Why? How? :huh:

One of the great points of x-com was that it was a team of the best human soldiers, scientists, and engeneers to save the planet when no other organization had done so. The whole point is that they're HUMAN, not grown in some plastic tube. Notice in the original x-com when you research the floater corpse your scientists don't get ready to perform the operation on a human. nano-tech I'm not wholly opposed to but it shouldn't improve things like hp and armor, it should only improve things that can be changed on a molecular level, such as increase strenth or faster reactions.

EDIT: I'm not for nano-tech particulaly either

It is not the moral issue which is important, it is the gameplay. What is the point of stats and training if u can modify all ur troops to exactly the same level. I don't like the idea personally, but then noone else seems 2 like my dismemberment idea so I feel 4 u Aosar :beer:

#28 Aosar

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Posted 11 August 2003 - 10:22 AM

EDIT: I'm not for nano-tech particulaly either


In general or as in human modification. Granted that cybernetic/nanotechnic modification of human soldiers is for other games, but not really for X-Com... However, nanotechology is real and in ten years who knows how advanced. So usage e.g. in medicine would be commonplace
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#29 Fred the Goat

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Posted 11 August 2003 - 12:18 PM

Hehe...thank you Jim. And I thought bloody limbs was good, just ought to be a mod.

Aosar, I think we're talking about nanotech (or anything else) as far as creating superhumans. Nanotech for medikits, on the other hand, sounds fine and dandy. An extra level to medikit research. Might not be feasible, might be too much healing power, but sounds good at any rate.

-Fred

#30 Ancalagon

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Posted 11 August 2003 - 04:57 PM

My idea for nano-tech medkit would be to have it work exactly the same as medkit but nano-machines would let soldier slowly recover HP (3-4 a turn mabe?).

Researching Nano-tech might also allow faster recovery at base.

Edited by Ancalagon, 11 August 2003 - 04:59 PM.


#31 Guest_Jim69_*

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Posted 11 August 2003 - 05:21 PM

That could work, as often a direct hit from a HP would kill ya anyway so balancing wouldn't be much of an issue, especially at the speeds u say ne way. I'd say put a cap on how much they can get back, maybe 60% of all health lost?

#32 Magstar

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 10:23 PM

The first time I played UFO Defense, I kept thinking to myself "Here's all this genetic manipulation equipment I keep capturing, and the Aliens seem to be doing a lot of this stuff, so why can't I alter my troops? Why can't they jump over tall buildings, smell aliens before they can see them, grow an extra arm in order to carry an extra gun, heal quickly without medikit aid, move extremely quickly, see incredibly far, or grow skin tougher than leather? It might take away from the good vs. evil feel of the original, but if I were running the war for humanity's survival, I'd be willing to accept the ramifications of rampant genetic alteration just so long as the human race survived long enough to be affected by them.

#33 XcomVic

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 10:26 PM

probably cause it would make the game more easier than it is...
...just a thought...

#34 Magstar

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Posted 24 February 2004 - 10:38 AM

I think we really ought to give the player that tough moral choice, and make it obvious that the choice they make in modifying their troops is a big, big deal. Let them know they have a choice to determine the future of mankind for all time, then let them play [/i]their[i] way.
To balance things, you could always lock them into the modification path. A guy with three arms isn't going to fit into armor, and there's no point in putting a speed enhanced, or high reaction soldier in armor either. A high speed or high strength soldier would be jittery, unable to aim as accurately as a normal soldier.

#35 T-1

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Posted 01 August 2004 - 03:54 PM

What separates us from the aliens? Nothing really separates us. Survival of the fittest. Plan and simple. Don't be so naive to think humans are good guys.

#36 centurion

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 03:38 AM

Oh, this is SO prosaic ...

But deep inside you do know that we are the forces of good on their crisade to rid the planet of the evil menace of the alien invaders&slavedrivers&perverts!
Endure; in enduring, grow strong.
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#37 T-1

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 03:47 AM

Oh, this is SO prosaic ...

But deep inside you do know that we are the forces of good on their crisade to rid the planet of the evil menace of the alien invaders&slavedrivers&perverts!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Since when are the aliens perverts? :huh?:

#38 centurion

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 03:50 AM

Oh, this is SO prosaic ...

But deep inside you do know that we are the forces of good on their crisade to rid the planet of the evil menace of the alien invaders&slavedrivers&perverts!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Since when are the aliens perverts? :huh?:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haven't you heard of their various probes? Ask Cpl. Facehugger, the project's head ..., umm, specialist in the field, he may tell you a thing or two!
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#39 T-1

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Posted 02 August 2004 - 06:09 AM

Oh, this is SO prosaic ...

But deep inside you do know that we are the forces of good on their crisade to rid the planet of the evil menace of the alien invaders&slavedrivers&perverts!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Since when are the aliens perverts? :huh?:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haven't you heard of their various probes? Ask Cpl. Facehugger, the project's head ..., umm, specialist in the field, he may tell you a thing or two!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Ahh thats just them try to study our anatomy.

#40 sir_schwick

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 11:09 AM

Many of the alien species recieved their incredible skills partly from surgical enhancements.

I think once you have captured some of the Alien Surgery components and completed appropriate research involving Alien medics and derivative research, you should be able to do similair but less advanced enhacement.

In order to do enhancment you would need an Advanced Medical Center facility(link coming to appropriate topic).

You would research each of these enhancements before you could do the surgery.

Ocular Enhancement
This enhances parts of the eye with advanced sensors that allow the soldier to see in extremely low light conditions as well as farther. It also allows for greater contrast discernment and motion analysis. The overall gameplay effect is greater accuracy, seeing night as day, greater knowledge of alien loadout, adjusts to changing light better so grenades and other large fireballs do not screw up vision.

Endoskeletal Enhancement
Bones and skeletal structures are enhanced with alien alloys. This allows for faster healing and greater resistance to all weapons. Carrying strength is increased greatly while movement is increased slightly. Melee attacks are a lot more effective.

Muscle Enhancement
Muscles are enhanced with organic derivatives of alien alloys. Strength increases substantially. This results in much faster movement, carrying capacity, accuracy with heavy weapons, melee attacks. Also, jump height is substantially higher, with strong soldiers reaching the top of two or three story buildings(Mutons should do this anyway).

Sensory Processing Enhancment
This implant, near the bottom of the brain, increases the information gained from sensory imput. That includes better hearing, sight, smell, tactile, and any other senses developed.

Radar Implant
This implant is a miniature radar system that allows soldiers to use sonic senses more effective than the motion sensor.

Nervous System Enhancement
The entire nervous system is enhanced by applications of alien alloys and alien electronics. Response times increase substantially as does accuracy of the auto-shots past the first.

Glandular Enhancement
Smell can reveal a lot to the well endowed olfactory. This enhancement can do a few different things. The first is eliminate tell-tale human smells that will alert aliens to a trap or a fearfull human inside a building. Also, when appropriate aliens are captured, you can imitate their smells to trick aliens.

Cardiovascular Enhancement
Your heart and blood vessels are upgraded to handle more chemicals and pressure. Movement, reaction, stamina, strength incresae moderately.

Endocrinological Enhancement
This system can release various drugs to increase performance, but with long term affects with overruse. It also increases resistance vastly to gas, radiation, and poisons. Once you find a cure for the Chryssalid Virus, this system also circulates an antidote that makes zombifying very difficult.

#41 T-1

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 03:37 PM

Like Deus Ex?
What about nanotech and genetics?

Alien alloys? You sure that that wouldn't be rejected by the immune system? I'm sure surgical steel would work just fine.

A radar system would cook the person (literally).

Glandular Enhancement? I don't think the AI will that advanced.

#42 j'ordos

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 04:10 PM

There's a thread about this issue already, so I'll merge them, keeps things in one place :)
edit : hmm, seems there were two threads :blink:

Edited by j'ordos, 01 December 2004 - 04:25 PM.

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#43 sir_schwick

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 10:39 AM

I imagine we could say this is an integration of all Alien medical techs, which probably includes nano-technology. Alien alloys are not organic as I understand it. If it was then maybe certain soldiers would be 'allergic' like most people were to nano-technology in Deus Ex.

Radar: Its an alien derived system. Also, part of the expense of the system is preparing the body to handle the system.

That AI functionality would be added later or that system can be dropped.

I am ammending the Cardio-vascular Enhancement:
It also allows you to cool your body heat to current air temperature. The main benefit is you no longer register on low-light scanners and vision.

#44 Snakeman

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 11:18 AM

It sounds like a good trade off. After all, they'd still show on motion scanners right?

#45 sir_schwick

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 01:09 PM

Yeah, I really can't think of a way to defeat the Motion Detectors, Terran or Alien. The best part of the radar enhancement is using it would only cost one or two TUs, since the info goes straight ot the brain. Instead of looking at a monitor, which must calculate the results, hits would be displayed on the battlescape.

#46 sir_schwick

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Posted 04 February 2005 - 10:58 AM

I am bumping this thread so another post can post their ideas here, or at least read ours.

#47 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 01:41 PM

Mmm nanotecnology might be in...

Optical implants

Cyborgs?

And as Facehugger said, it wouldŽnt be so good unless there were be something equal for the aliens...

#48 sir_schwick

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 01:55 PM

And as Facehugger said, it wouldŽnt be so good unless there were be something equal for the aliens...


There is, its the fact that their soldiers would already have upgrades like these. XCORPS troops should require nano-tech just to get even with aliens. IN old game you could become more powerful just through experience. So, the aliens will already be uber-modified and you have to figure out how to adjust.

#49 Sinscale17

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 03:31 PM

I've always been fond of the idea to be able in some way to "tweak" soldiers.

In most X-Com games, how hard is it really to load up a bunch of rookies with Pistols, mind control and strip a bunch of Mutons/Lobstermen/just raid Sirius five hundred times in one day, and make them parade back and forth in front of them until they're all maxed out beasts of war? The entire theme of Aliens I always found is not "puny humans against super-powerful aliens" as much as it's "super-strong humans against limitless numbers of puny aliens", which is just how I like it. So the idea of genetically "improved" humans seems actually to fit MORE readily into the X-Com mould than some people seem willing to think.

The aim of UFO was more than just sending endless numbers of men to die in UFO battles all day, you researched the alien technologies, researched your own improvements to them, until not only were you equal to the very aliens you faced, but towards the end of each game (with trained Psi units, heavy defensive armour, flight capability, not to mention average stat levels - and this is purely in UFO) you exceed them. You build Avengers can take out two Battleships in a sitting, craft weapons that exceed the best they have to offer, and all your guys can fly to boot.

So, to get back on topic, with genetic modification (I'll simply bunch nanotech with the process here, since the only way to accomplish large-scale modifications on a non-embryonic lifeform is through bacterial or nanite manipulation).
To "improve" a soldier shouldn't be so drastic as Schwick suggests, the idea of different fields is good, (though the metal endoskeleton misses out the slight problem that without your bone marrow, the body lacks any way to actually produce new blood cells so you die in three days. =B), but possibly in a variety of subtle ways.

First off, the balances:

1: Each soldier has a concealed "tolerance" stat, and each "improvement" bears a cost based against this. This is the general amount of manipulation their body can take before they may start rejecting their own body tissue and die in a bloody mess on the floor and everyone has to bring their own mop.

Since this could be carried out by a simple blood test, the level of tolerance of every soldier is automatically known upon recieving the tech to want to know tolerance in the first place.

Exceeding this by even a little (and getting lucky and them not dying) can lead to random effects such as momentary blindness (a random chance of severely fluffing a shot), various psychoses through the mission (well, we're all familiar with THOSE), permanent psionic deadbeat (A strength of 0, a skill of 0, both unraisable. Have fun in those bases! ^_^ ), quicker energy loss from movement, crippled (straight forward reduced strength, or TUs, or energy, or accuracy, or reduced reflexes et cetera)....
These effects are chosen only at inception, once "finished" without dangerous effects, the character is settled.

I'm sure everyone can think of more ways of torturing their poor rookie test subjects of course.

Suddenly even awful soldiers have another chance to be great, another "Psi-esque" stat that can suddenly differentiate soldiers who had previously been identical, whilst the potential benefits of overloading soldiers a little past their tolerances can easily outweigh the chance of their being "flawed". Conversely every death due to biological failure is a huge score reduction.

The average tolerance should be similar to the Psi stats type of range. Exceptionally high 100s, and exceptionally low <10's would be rare, but not unheard of.


2: Each soldier can only undergo improvement once and once only. If you research ocular enhancement and rush to fit in someone for the procedure, they can't be reworked on once you get cardiovascular upgrades, even if they did have more tolerance available to them.

Tactics fun when you are forced to decide whether to upgrade and get that bonus now before you do that alien base, or try for a supersoldier once you've mastered every tech and are just killing time before heading up to Thanatos.

3: In mutations, I refer to increasing the "potential" of a soldier, the closer the modified unit was to their original maximum, the lower the increase they can achieve - habits are already formed, training already done its work, getting old....

For example, a rookie just hired and immediately put to improved eyesight will have the basic accuracy bonus, and the maximum increase in potential. The 100 Psi Strength Commander you've had in every battle since day one, who has every stat maxed out barring a meager "Seventy-nine" in Time Units, if given the same treatment will gain only the accuracy bonus, and no magically increased maximum.

Yet more tactics, the potential need for dropping all the "old guard" to create an all-new rookie force from scratch in the late game is a tempting prospect for the perfectionist.

4: The aforementioned funding cuts, even outright war and raids by religious nuts and humanitarians alike is a great idea, which I'll refer to in detail a little later as related to each "tier" of artificial evolution.

To cover simply, if "discovered" (take them on a terror mission, or a randomly generated media reporter breaks in and snaps a picture of your base, which should happen even when you're not doing anything wrong, just for a larf), your funding can stand to be reduced or cut entirely if you've made a bunch of school-girl hunting tentacle fiends, but if you've done the equivalent of making your soldiers take steroids, then the media wouldn't really care, and nor would any funding countries, but you might lose $$$$ from the Vatican. This would be magnified (and snoops far more likely) at higher difficulty levels.

5: Time and money: In order to both make scientists necessary after everything has been researched (rather than sackable to make more room for engineers like the original), each soldier would function in much the same way as a manufacturing job.

Total man hours for a true biological nightmare could easily rival an advanced ship equivalent in total man hours as scientists need to occupy themselves monitoring feeds, maintaining them, entering the formula.... Naturally, these scientists couldn't research during this time, nor could the soldier be sent on missions until they were "finished". Cancelling equally, is not an option, so don't mod your whole force all at once. :D

Equally, given the general facilities needed for such activities, special "biological containment lab" facilities would need to be produced, with a maximum of two men modified per BCL rather than taking up "lab space". These rooms would be pricey and slow to complete, and obviously compete with other rooms for base space.

----

I'm more than open to suggestions on any further limitations to what should be a lucrative and deep "side quest" type path down the techtree, but I'd like to add to the earlier (and excellent) idea of moral tiers with rather more sinister endings:

"X-Corps independence and Alien alliance". Cast out from all economic ties and alliances with a planet that both hates and fears them, yet too powerful for any country to remove them, X-Corps is faced with two choices, either continue their original mission without the aid of any human support (Can't recruit more men of any of the three categories, must pay black market prices for everything else), eventually winning at terrible cost and then remaining trapped and aloof on a world that hates and fears them....
Or ally with the alien forces, turning superior X-Corps firepower towards destroying and burning entire cities to the ground until the last vestiges of free humanity are dominated under X-Corps' control, and then humans joining the legion alien creatures assaulting their NEXT world, though how human they might be is rather questionable.

Both "dark" endings signify the need for an entirely new mission type. The X-Corps terror mission. Assault human cities, stunning civilians and armed force members to bring back to base or simply killing them for kicks. The only way X-Corps can recruit new members is to abduct them, mind dominate them, and put them to work. Or simply throw them in the cloning vat to fuel the modification vats. It's all good. :devillaugh:

----

And now, the actual improvements, I'm staying clear of different levels of sophistication to each improvement in true UFO fashion (You can't research hyper-efficient laser sniper rifles, can you?).

Light Modification:

These improvements require fairly low tolerance levels (say needing an average of 10 tolerance each), and aren't terribly likely to offend that many people. Minor improvements aren't terribly immoral or "challenging the bounds between humanity and monstrosity", and shouldn't really have that much of a "darkening" influence on one's ending.

Minor modifications are essentially genetic "tune-ups", improving vision, tweaking the cortex and other such elevated abilities are as far as such things go. In gameplay terms, sticking solely to these or lower should remain challenging, but your conscience will be clean.


Improved Vision - microscopic eye surgery grants the patient 22/22 vision, and provides up to around a +2 bonus to the shot accuracy stat, but improves the overall "potential" (read: maximum) by up to an additional 8, for a total improvement of 10 by the end of a rookie career.
An important, but less stat based improvement is an improvement in night vision by two squares and general nighttime accuracy. Not as good as an alien's, but better than nothing.


Efficient Metabolism - Muscle tissue engineered to function better anaerobically and be more resistant to lactic acid buildups combined with improved pulmonary efficiency allow greater strength and speed in the patient, providing +1 Time Unit and +1 Strength, with a further +5 potential to each. A rookie "bionaut" (bio-enhanced soldier) with this upgrade can potentially run a square further than an equivalent soldier every turn once fully trained.


Super Circulatory System - The heart's size and efficiency increases, whilst blood vessels are infiltrated by a series of cutoff valves which slow blood loss and aid recovery.
Combined with this a store of platelet fuelled nanites occupies the bloodstream, swiftly serving to regenerate tissue damage and lost limbs.
The Super Circulatory System essentially serves as a "negative" fatal wound. Each turn, if health is lower than maximum, the bionaut regains 1 point of health. If health is full, but other stats were reduced due to injury, these are recovered upon complete regeneration. The bionaut also has a 5% chance of a fatal wound being healed each turn instead of their 1 health per turn regeneration.
Due to the invasive nature of this procedure, it takes [15] tolerance as opposed to the average [10].


Improved Glandular Response - Outputs of adrenalin, endorphins and other hormones are controlled by resident nanite populations in the enlarged glands and released as appropriate to stabilise the moods of a soldier. Bravery is increased by 1, and a potential of an additional 4. In addition to this, the soldier regains a small amount of morale each turn, and morale recovery from panic and beserk is doubled.
Due to the relatively small and comparatively uninvasive nature of the nanite colonies, IGR treatment requires only [5] tolerance.


Wired Reflexes - the nerve cells of the bionaut are modified and rewired in such a way as to give split-second reaction times to the point of seeming clairevoyance, as a result gaining an increase of 3 to Reaction, with a further 12 extra potential for the stat.
As an added bonus, the trooper regains 0-5 TU's at the end of their turn, after movement as a result of their obscene reaction speed. A lucky bionaut might get to reflexively duck a shot even after running across the whole map the turn before.


Psionic Buffer - A one off trade off, the psionic buffer modification to the brain alters psionic brain patterns to ways incompatible with psionic influence. This zeroes and prevents the raising of psionic skill (behaving as though the bionaut were an untrained psi talent), but doubles the psionic strength of the unit against mind control and panic attempts.


Psi Scream Brain Modification - The Psi Scream modification to the brain affords the bionaut a 5 increase to both strength and skill, and allows them to function without a psi-amp so long as they keep one hand free to focus their mental powers.
When combined with a Psi-Amp however, the bionaut may attempt a mental "scream" after which the enhancement is named, directly attacking the mind of the target to deal 1-10 stun damage for every successful scream (a function which operates similarly to attacking morale).
This is the most invasive and dangerous procedure to still be classified as "minor", due to the dangerous manipulation of the brain involved.
Naturally, as Psi Buffer is in direct contrast to this, the two enhancements are mutually exclusive.


----


Medium Modification

Here, humans have started to walk the fine line between utilitarianism and "playing God". Large-scale alterations to the human body to achieve battlefield results start to weaken the sense of "us versus them", and the morality of subjecting soldiers to a lifetime as freaks starts to emerge.

As these manipulations are fairly major, the average tolerance required per improvement is 25.


Compound Eyes - Whilst otherwise normal, the eyes of the individual are changed in function and structure to those of a Grey; large, pupilless black orbs. These eyes view in several spectrums, including infra red, eliminating nighttime vision and smoke penalties, as well as granting the same accuracy bonus as Enhanced Vision.


Battle Claw - Mimicking the effective lethality of Spawn attacks, the Battle Claw upgrade grants the bionaut a single chitin covered arm ending in a vicious barbed pincer, and can be selected twice, with 25 tolerance each. (If only selected once, the poor bionaut would be a tad imbalanced...)
Each claw may effect a melee attack for 10% TU cost and 100% accuracy, dealing armour piercing damage equal to the Bionaut's strength score with each attack.
If both hands are made into claws, a 15% TU cost double attack becomes available, dealing double strength as damage.
As the obvious downside, these claws cannot wield guns or other melee weapons, though they can throw grenades. A cloaked claw-bionaut would be a dangerous toy indeed.


Chitinite Armour - Another grudging nod to the efficacy of the Alien war machine, natural biological plates are fused to the soldier's endoskeleton to create a living artificial exoskeletal armour, highly resistant to plasma fire, though vulnerable to armour piercing weaponry.

Front: 80 Sides: 60 Back: 70 Under: 50 - Though Chitinite Armour effectively prevents the user wearing any other armour, all plasma weapons are at half effect when calculating damage against it. Due to its "construction" and biological nature, it does not prevent fire damage.


Chameleonism - Similar to cloaking technology, the skin of the bionaut adapts almost instantly to its surroundings, rendering it blurred and difficult to see.

If the bionaut has not attacked during its turn, and is more than 10 "square equivalents" from a unit, it is effectively invisible to that unit. Intelligent and observant human controllers might notice the blurry features of a camouflaged unit (or a piece of scenery that LOOKS like one), and open fire on it with reckless abandon, but there is no "alert" (little red flashy box equivalent from UFO) about its visibility.
As an extension, the chameleonic unit's constant shifting colours grants shooters a penalty akin to firing through permanent solid smoke cover.


----

Extreme Modification:

Humanity crosses the line, then urinates upon it. The tolerance required here is high, 50 tolerance minimum, but given that some forms of extreme modification create entirely new biological weapon units, this is sometimes irrelevant.

Getting caught with one of these things on your base is easily comparable to losing a craft or worse. Each. Heavy loss of funding, outright hostility and the darkside endings are all you can really expect from this level of technology, but at least you can be assured your troops will tear through aliens like butter. And being evil is fun too.


Ovipostor - The bottom half of the bionaut's face is mutated into something like a hidious fly, a long curled ovipostor, or egg implanter, curls from where their mouth used to be. Ovipostor granted bionauts can no longer eat naturally, and require intravenous feeding to survive.

The use of the Ovipostor is two-fold. Firstly, any successful melee attack by the bionaut against an enemy has a 20% chance of creating a zombie of the appropriate species if it successfully damages. Secondly, if your bionaut happens upon a body - dead or unconscious, it can pick it up and hold it in its hand (or near equivalent), spending half of its TUs to infest the body, which swiftly dies if it wasn't already.
Next turn the body explodes to realise a mutant biokiller, genetically engineered alien killer.

TU: 60 Acc: 0 Throw Acc: 0 Bravery: 100 Strength: 10 Energy: 120 Health: 20 Psi: -

This BioTerminator is under your control, and completely expendable, exploding on death into a little puddle of formless goo, they only live a few hours, but as long as they do they can be used as the ultimate scout-fodder or to distract reaction fire from the bionaut themselves.

Notionally a "human/spawn" bionaut could be made with twin claw, chitinite armour and the Ovipostor modifications, but would require >100 tolerance to do so.


Chimera

A particularly twisted and inhumane experiment inspired by the Raptor (if they're still the same biology as their inspiration), the fusion process uses both available slots in the biolab and two soldiers to combine into a horrific mutant hybrid, a heavy biological tank with double copies of every organ and propels itself about on an obscene mixture of hands and legs. A mixture of psi-controlled turret weapons can be fitted on the resultant chimera bionaut(s?). To all extents and purposes, the two soldiers have become a heavy weapons platform, then fused with a thick, leathery hide and in-built psi enhancers, even aliens have reason to fear.

One of the few mutation projects that rewards latecomers, the Chimera project combines 60% of each of the two soldiers' stats together to form a single heavy artillery unit, replete with a high accuracy heavy laser mount and missile launcher (or their upgraded equivalent), and comparatively light armour (50, 40, 50, 30), but is immune to mortal wounds, cannot improve, and "costs" two soldiers.

Due to the severity of the change, no other biological manipulation may have been formerly practiced upon, or currently in effect on either of the patients.

Satyrian "upgrade"

Turning to our enemies once again, a human variant on the Satyrian anti-gravity design, made possible by our advances in biology, has been perfected, allowing bionauts to sail serenely over the battlefield raining death down upon enemies.

Obviously enough, this allows the bionaut to fly. Though the floater modification renders armour unwearable, as the bionaut no longer has any major organs left, all damage is halved automatically, and can potentially be combined with chitinite armour.


Pyropsionics

A dangerous brain experiment gone wrong, Pyropsionics has granted the bionaut not only +10 to both Psi Strength and Skill, and the ability to use any free hand to use psionics, but also, when using a psi-amp device, the ability to use the Enflame ability for 10%TUs a use.

With the same principle as a pistol, Enflame shoots a fireball, intended to cause the victim to burst into flames. On a hitting a target it is instantly set ablaze, and the fireball explodes into a 3x3 square, possibly lighting other creatures/scenery ablaze too.
Whenever the bionaut stands in one place for more than a turn, the ground beneath them is set ablaze if it is flammable, as will the ground of all victims of the bionaut just to start the barbecue going.

As always, this psionics modification is mutually exclusive of all others. It also grants 100% immunity to fire and IC rounds.
Though technically not an "Extreme Modification", belonging more in the Medium range, the tech involved is high, and the tolerance requirement 50, so I'm dumping it here.

----


I suppose there are a few more possibilities, but keeping things comparatively simple, this fairly small number seemed a good one to stop at. As ever, feel free to comment, read, suggest and critique if you think I messed up balance or missed something. Hopefully it provides something of a mean that could add something to the game for everyone to enjoy.



Edit: Ah yes, with all that I forgot aliens. Why not have them simply have a set number of "slots" with which to include a random variant of some of these mods in each?

For example, a beginner Sectoid encountered within the first week (and a Soldier) wouldn't have any available slots - Soldiers are cannon fodder after all, but a Squad Leader might have, for example, a single slot of 10, which for one might be improved eyesight, for another might be efficient metabolism. At superhuman, even early soldiers might get one, whilst commanders might fill all ten! Chameleonic Chrysalids ought to keep you alert though. :devillaugh:


It might even be racially selected, with more going into psi for Cloaks and greys, durability and healing for mutons and snakemen et cetera.

The clones thing was basically just a cop out for having universal template stats anyway, why not use this to both up the challenge AND add a little variety?

Edited by Sinscale17, 07 February 2005 - 03:50 PM.

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#50 sir_schwick

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 05:10 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............................

I like your enthusiasm, I really do, but.....

1) You should create new threads and link them for ideas that are related but not really direclty linked to the current topic. A new ending would fit that description.

2) If any reports happened to get anywhere near an X-CORP base, they would 'disappear'. Most of the world's militaries do not know where the X-CORP bases are.

3) Suppose a government found out you were screwing around with human modification, would they really care? Especially when it helps get rid of their alien problem.

4) Most of these modifications seem a bit extreme or technically unfeasible with even the upgraded alien tech. However I am going to make a post revising what counts as XCORP and Alien upgrades.

5) This is not Starship Troopers, no hordes of Tyrannids are coming down the hallway. It is elite groups of warriors facing each other off in a dangerous game.