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Aircraft Weapon Loadout


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#1 BlackAce

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:24 AM

I was looking around for Aircraft weapon loadouts, but couldnt find it, so I createda new one,

I want to express my idea for weapon loadouts. Regarding to assets list we'regoing to have all three weapons of classic X-Com, which is good as long as wehave only air intercept missions for our fighter aircrafts.

Now, my point is, in X-Com, player can load two weapon types to aircraft, however, weapons loadout was quite weird especially when you load different weapons, like 6x stingray on one side and a single cannon on the other, now acannon holds 6 pylons? (or 3pylon x 2missile) I think not, so I suggest that we should use something more rational, something similar to real aircrafts,

here is scheme for weapon loadout, a cannon (there could be an option for 20mm/30mm I think) and primary and secondary load-outs... difference between
1st and 2nd should be capacity and 1:4 ratio could be realistic regarding to this scheme but please read below, (by the way avalanche can use more space than stinger or NOT)

As our interceptor is similar to F-22 (Personally, I recommend Su-37 SuperFlanker, as USAF aircrafts are designed to attack in groups so they're superior in electronics, however, as we are going to use single (?) fighter on intercept missions this task will require more firepower, speed and agility where Su-37 excels and again in classic X-Com, Interceptor was very similar to Su-33 Flanker (Su-37 was not exist at that time)

anyways I assume its F-22 for now, it has one weapon bay beneath of the aircraft, a seconday weapon bay for "sidewinders" and several pylons on wings if aircraft will go unstealth. so capacity could be 1:2 or 1:1 for 1st and 2nd load-outs, but I strongly recommend a cannon should be teritiary weapon regardless to other weapons. so player can set his load-out like LRAAM+LRAAM or LRAAM+SRAAM or SRAAM+SRAAM plus a cannon (LR/SR=Long or Short Range, AAM=Air to Air Missile, AMRAAM=Advanced Medium Range AAM)

So in air intercept control, cautious attack will be used for weapon with the longest range, Standart will be used for all missiles and Aggressive will make pilot to throw everything he has on UFO :)

Dogfight or AttackRun? I dont think a fast UFO will try to take evasive manuevers to evade incoming fire, like in X-Com they will take care of their mission rather than screwing with enemy interceptors or they can run for their lives if things start to get worse... :D

Sukhoi Su-37

most impressing part is it has two engines with a power output of 30,855 lbs thrust each, 61,710 lbs in total !!! (F-22 has 35,000 in total)

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Edited by BlackAce, 26 October 2003 - 04:34 AM.


#2 dipstick

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:33 AM

Just to be picky, why not two cannons? Or maybe 4? Anything symmetrical looks good. Apart from that it is a good idea, but I don't know how it would affect gameplay. We did have a rather large thread about dogfights somewhere..... *searches*
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#3 BlackAce

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:38 AM

Just to be picky, why not two cannons?  Or maybe 4?  Anything symmetrical looks good.  Apart from that it is a good idea, but I don't know how it would affect gameplay.  We did have a rather large thread about dogfights somewhere..... *searches*

I conducted several seaches for different topics to find something related but all I found is fighter concept which is quite different than this one I think...

for multi-cannons, I thought that, most European manufactured aircrafts (Especially France) has two cannons (Mirage, both Variants of Tornado) so like you said I also think that we can implement something like that too,

#4 dipstick

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:42 AM

Let me find said thread a sec.
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#5 dipstick

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:47 AM

Here it is 7 pages too :D

http://www.xcomufo.c...?showtopic=2101
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#6 BlackAce

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 04:57 AM

wow, quite long, most important part I get is this topic should be in the Labratory... :(

#7 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 08:00 AM

Yup. It should be moved to the lab. The lab is for discussion of anything that would signifigantly change Xcom1's gameplay.
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#8 Vaaish

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 08:32 AM

As our interceptor is similar to F-22 (Personally, I recommend Su-37 SuperFlanker, as USAF aircrafts are designed to attack in groups so they're superior in electronics, however, as we are going to use single (?) fighter on intercept missions this task will require more firepower, speed and agility where Su-37 excels and again in classic X-Com, Interceptor was very similar to Su-33 Flanker (Su-37 was not exist at that time)

anyways I assume its F-22 for now, it has one weapon bay beneath of the aircraft, a seconday weapon bay for "sidewinders" and several pylons on wings if aircraft will go unstealth. so capacity could be 1:2 or 1:1 for 1st and 2nd load-outs, but I strongly recommend a cannon should be teritiary weapon regardless to other weapons. so player can set his load-out like LRAAM+LRAAM or LRAAM+SRAAM or SRAAM+SRAAM plus a cannon (LR/SR=Long or Short Range, AAM=Air to Air Missile, AMRAAM=Advanced Medium Range AAM)

most impressing part is it has two engines with a power output of 30,855 lbs thrust each, 61,710 lbs in total !!! (F-22 has 35,000 in total)

I'd like to know where you get the idea theat USAF doctrine is based on groups of outclassed figters attacking superior numbers. USAF doctine as of late has been emphasizing high speed, stealth aircraft with first shot first kill capabilities from BVR.

Second I'd like to know where you got your information on the F22's performance. It uses two Prat Whitney F119 engines that produce a total (at least released) of 35,000LBS of thrust coming to a total 70,000 lbs of thrust, quite a bit more than the Other aircraft you mentioned (source for this is from Lockheed Martin and Pratt Whitney)

The craft we are actually using is a YF-23, this craft has the same basic armament and engines as the F22 you are referencing.

#9 j'ordos

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 09:17 AM

moved to the lab.

Maybe cannons could be fitted on the aircraft as 'standard' weapon (doesn't take up a weapon slot) and then when you research laser cannons you could replace them?
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#10 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 09:58 AM

Thank you J'ordos.

I like the idea of making cannons (std and laser only-no plasma) standard weapons. That way, I could mount twin plasma beams for any signifigant threat, and rely on the laser for small ufos. Maby we should have a way to toggle weapons off? Like if you have the situation I just described and you don't want to shoot down the scout too badly? Hmm.

Edit: Something else that would be nice: The ability to take weapons off of interceptors! If I am going to sell an interceptor, The best I can do is give it twin cannons! and if I forget to do this, then thats two plasma beams down the toilet!

Edited by Cpl. Facehugger, 26 October 2003 - 10:00 AM.

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#11 BlackAce

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 10:44 AM


As our interceptor is similar to F-22 (Personally, I recommend Su-37 SuperFlanker, as USAF aircrafts are designed to attack in groups so they're superior in electronics, however, as we are going to use single (?) fighter on intercept missions this task will require more firepower, speed and agility where Su-37 excels and again in classic X-Com, Interceptor was very similar to Su-33 Flanker (Su-37 was not exist at that time)

anyways I assume its F-22 for now, it has one weapon bay beneath of the aircraft, a seconday weapon bay for "sidewinders" and several pylons on wings if aircraft will go unstealth. so capacity could be 1:2 or 1:1 for 1st and 2nd load-outs, but I strongly recommend a cannon should be teritiary weapon regardless to other weapons. so player can set his load-out like LRAAM+LRAAM or LRAAM+SRAAM or SRAAM+SRAAM plus a cannon (LR/SR=Long or Short Range, AAM=Air to Air Missile, AMRAAM=Advanced Medium Range AAM)

most impressing part is it has two engines with a power output of 30,855 lbs thrust each, 61,710 lbs in total !!! (F-22 has 35,000 in total)

I'd like to know where you get the idea theat USAF doctrine is based on groups of outclassed figters attacking superior numbers. USAF doctine as of late has been emphasizing high speed, stealth aircraft with first shot first kill capabilities from BVR.

Second I'd like to know where you got your information on the F22's performance. It uses two Prat Whitney F119 engines that produce a total (at least released) of 35,000LBS of thrust coming to a total 70,000 lbs of thrust, quite a bit more than the Other aircraft you mentioned (source for this is from Lockheed Martin and Pratt Whitney)

The craft we are actually using is a YF-23, this craft has the same basic armament and engines as the F22 you are referencing.

I send a PM to you about my post in detail, I dont want to convert this topic into aviation forum.

Briefly, I think that (and thats what authorities say) Su-37 is far more advanced than any other aircraft on one-on-one situations due to its agility and firepower. and F-22 is a front line fighter for a large support flight.

anyways, Im just recommending...

I'd like to know what basic armament refers to, a cannon? or complete set of AA weapons

#12 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 11:11 AM

I imagine that basic armament means hardpoints. But thats just me. Anyway, the interceptor's weapons are internal, so hardpoints are kind of redundant.
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#13 BlackAce

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 11:49 AM

I hope you people arent going to load up all the missiles in to weapon bay! I'd like to remind you that its "weapon bay" not "cargo bay" :)

#14 Deimos

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 03:12 PM

For +v1 these are some cool ideas that would no doubt have to be playtested and the plan is Blackace that once we have the game up and running the player can have a choice of aircraft that they want to buy. The playe could either get locally sourced aircraft from the friendly local neighbourhood countries or could opt to have their favourite craft imported to their bases. This is just to give it the personal touch for the player so you could have the su37 or even a cessna if you chose and modelled it (cause I don't think anyone would officially want a cessna in as a fighter craft ;)).

For weapon loadouts, to keep to the spirit of the original there will have to be some modifications to the craft made. I think the general feeling is that Stealth craft are "a good thing tm" so instead of changing weapon loadouts the weapon bays can be internal and near the centre of the craft. As an example look at this concept pic I drew of the top of the avenger. On the right there is a diamond shape with an elongated diamond which is where the missile/weapon bays are. these slide back and out pops the missile, gun, plasma cannon or whatever. What's not shown is that for the avenger there will be one on either side as it has two hardpoints.

Ok it takes a little of the real life beliveability away but anyone here I think will agree that we're going for gameplay/fun first and reality a close second. :)

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#15 BlackAce

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 03:53 PM

selectable interceptor would be GREAT !!! there could be trade-offs between fighters on range, speed, acceleration and hitpoint and of course PRICE values so that would force player to think about an air combat strategy before establishing a fleet.

for Europe Rafale or Eurofighter are applicable for this task, for Asia, there are some Chinese modified aircrafts which were formerly Russian.

Or we can even add more aircrafts as I have alot of aircraft models (F-14, F-15 C/E, F-16, F-18, JAS-39 (Euro), Rafale (Euro), Tornado (Euro), Mig-29, Su-27, Su-33/37 all of these models are accurately modeled, they only need some polishing,texturing and detail modeling, for example, F-16 above is mine, and I have polished up few months ago, it takes few days at most to do) I think this is a good point if we select some of the models ...

about internal weapon bay, I rethink about it after reading Deimos's post, those pop-up style weapon racks (similar to F-22's "sidewinder" bay) could be really good as it makes "loading time" thing reasonable for missiles which adds value to air combat control.

sticking to good old X-com is very good but having a teritiary weapon is a must-have I think, because it also increases tactical value of "aggresive attack mode"

and also Laser cannons get obsolete once plasma cannons are developed, replacing standart cannons with laser cn. and replacing missiles with plasma or blasters would be very effective, and it will make Laser weapons more usefull for interceptors (j'ordos's idea) and again in overall weapon arsenal would be enlarged which is excellent I think.

Edited by BlackAce, 26 October 2003 - 04:01 PM.


#16 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 26 October 2003 - 05:37 PM

I agree with you completely. Of course, none of this can be done until after version 1 is out the door, but I hope we do it!
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#17 BlackAce

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 01:36 AM

why? I say I have those models, I made them long time ago, all we have to do is select some of them and then I can polish them up for the game, I can prepare 2 or 3 model in a week, so we have them in V1 on time I guess... (by the way when we are going to have V1.0 released?)

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Edited by BlackAce, 29 October 2003 - 09:41 AM.


#18 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 01:56 PM

No, the problem isn't the lack of models, the problem is lack of programmers to code in new code. It was decided long ago to get a updated version of xcom 1 (xenocide v1) working first before we start adding features. That way, our overburdened programmers can work more efficiently.

Of course, if you want to replace the default f22 interceptor with your model in your copy, you are welcome to do that. Until v1 is out though, I wouldn't hold your breath for getting selectable aircraft. Or anything else that signifigantly changes the xcom 1 forumla for that matter.
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#19 j'ordos

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Posted 27 October 2003 - 02:09 PM

+ it would require additional playtesting. V1 will strictly be Xcom without (hopefully, come on programmers, do your best ^_^ ) bugs and without some serious gameplay flaws or exploits (like sending an interceptor to a terror site so your skyranger doesn't have to depart immedately). Once that is done, everyone can begin to create mods, as that is another goal: absolute moddability, so if you want to choose from 20 interceptors, no problem. Until then though, we try to keep it close to the original.
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#20 NickJones

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 12:33 PM

I like different crafts thats cool. But when avengers arrive on the scene, it will be a shame that interceptors will no longer have a use. Maybe the upkeep of an Avenger should increase, so that a small fleet of Interceptors needs to be kept.

#21 Whitewashed

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Posted 15 January 2004 - 12:38 PM

No way, the interceptors are very bad against larger UFOs. It's better to have 2 avengers and a few firestorms.

#22 Cpl. Facehugger

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Posted 21 January 2004 - 04:00 PM

I'm not sure If I put this one in the right place. Gbms, could you move it if it doesn't belong here? (It is kind of relevent, interceptions and all...)
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#23 Tuoppi

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Posted 06 February 2004 - 04:28 AM

How about upgrading your interceptors? It would be a lot cheaper to install an alien power source to propel a fighter than build a new craft. Of course, armour and weapon limits would occur...

Mechanic:An F-18 cannot carry that heavy blaster launcher you made up!
Commander: Why not?
Mechanic:Because it weights 30000kg and is 3 meters high! Wings cannot support that kind of weight and it doesnŽt fit under the fuselage!
Commander: DŽoh

About the cannons, standard cannons are usually integrated into structure and cannot be removed... Upgrading into laser and plasma sounds great!

Also iŽd like to see some Air to Ground weapons. If an battleship has landed, why not give them some bombs... Naturally limits scavengeable items a bit but decreases defensive personell also... And for sure it doesnŽt fly anymore! Same tactic applies to enemy bases that are too close to surface or not complete.

A-G weapons cost money, take valuable hardpoint in craft and are useless in A-A combat but against ground targets...

Wedge: Spotted supply ship landed at enemy base, request instructions.
Commander: Fry them. Shock troops will follow.
Wedge: Roger, will napalm and head home...

If you have firepower, why do it the hard way?

#24 fux0r666

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Posted 06 February 2004 - 04:54 AM

bombing would be bad if you want to salvage resources or if you are trying to protect civilian life...

I think in the game ufo construction requires alien alloys and so you can't jerry rig a ufo power source into a metal airplane.. I figure it would probably rip it apart... becuase there has to be a reason that they use those alloys.

You can give aircraft anything you want on underwing pylons.. Cannons, fuel, missiles, electronic equipment, cameras, bombs, mines... so I don't think that putting any of those other weapons underwing would be a problem.

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#25 Puasonen

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Posted 06 February 2004 - 05:07 AM

Limiting interceptor from using some weapons isn't a good idea IMO. Just makes them useless. Upgrading possibilitys sounds like a good idea though. Bombing an area where aliens are have been discussed already in a other topic. In fact, I started that topic so it's probably kind of abvious I like the idea. The reason why most people don't like it is the fact it's very hard to balance. There has to bee some negative effects about it. Otherwise everyone will bomb the place everytime and there's something like 5 aliens in a battleship left every time. Too easy.
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#26 centurion

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Posted 06 February 2004 - 06:56 AM

Probably making interceptors obsolete is not so bad, since you force the player to use advanced (read: Xenium-guzzling and demanding to produce) craft. And moreover, its pretty reasonable that to operate weaponry conceived by aliens for use with their power source, you need loads of energy to be generated by the craft ("- No, it doesn't weight 30 tons, but it needs a powerstation to keep its 'Ready to fire' LED flashing").
Counterpoint: alien alloys are used as armor, metal planes can accomodate alien power sources and interceptors never get obsolete. Might work as well.

#27 Tuoppi

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Posted 06 February 2004 - 09:37 AM

I think the negative effect of bombing would be destruction of valuables far before aliens. If you bomb a battleship until there are 5 aliens left, you can salvage about 10 alloys at most. (Rest is damaged beyond use when power sources and elerium explode...) Also youŽd need several craft to do such assaulting and there might be some Anti-Aircraft weapons too...

Again, bombs mean loss of
1) money,
2) ready interceptor hardpoints ->much money or efficiency,
3) lots of salvageable equipment.

Still iŽd like to have an option to make a huge crater out of that pesky scout ship wreckage as it has nothing valuable later on...
Or a chance to soften up that too tough enemy base even at cost of all stuff there. My elite troopers are NOT expendable.
And that would make you really work for your research items, as they were gained too quickly and automatically in UFO1.

About alien weapons underwing still... If it launches some materia with speed, it is definitely an issue of structural integrity as aircraft wings cannot take much force if it twists it in the wrong way. It is simply not made to take that kind of forces, only to carry load straightly up, and withstand drag of air. And military aircraft are not so very high when on wheels.
Also when going really fast, about 10 mach, wings and nosecone actually melt without spaceshuttle's cooling systems and surface materials so speed would have a limit too...

Eventually you would have to make your own craft, but that would lenghten interceptors lifespan quite a bit...

#28 dipstick

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Posted 07 February 2004 - 03:02 PM

How about changing the number of weapons slots, as in Apoc :D

ie. Interceptor - 2 slots
Firestorm - 4 slots
Avenger - 6 slots

And divide all weapons into cannons and missiles ( need some alien missiles apart from fusion ball)

Then, put range of all cannons as standard (approx old laser range) Then make some slots cannon only

Finally, have a toggle for each weapon!

Sorted!
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