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#51 tzuchan

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 02:11 AM

Nevertheles, the placement of the handles still do not make sense...
judging from the current placement, the only way to lug it about would be to hold it horizontally in front of you, hardly the best way to carry a gun and aim it...

If one of the handles stuck out horizontally like the smartgun in the pic, and the rear handle was rotate 90 degrees to its current orientation, then I would say that the gun is wieldable...
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#52 Vaaish

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 06:49 AM

how about making the weapon shoulder mounted? That could help the user have a more stable base to aim with since we don't have an auto aiming mechanic like the smart gun and it should make it easier to carry.

As it is now, it is possible to carry, though not the easiest to aim or maneuver with.

#53 mikker

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 07:01 AM

I tried to hold it and use my own body to figure out how to place the handles. I belive i mangeded to do so.

If you're left handed, you're most likely to have it on the left side. In that case, the left hand is on the rear, and the right (crosses over the body to the left side) on the front. This result in a twist of the body when you have it in shoot position dirrect ahead. Your right shoulder will be level with your right leg. I havn't pictured this well, though.

Also, the muzzle of the weapon will be a little higher than knee hight.

Also, the weapon is not right to scale, and when you run, you hold it in front of you.

added one to scale.

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Edited by mikker, 15 February 2005 - 07:44 AM.

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#54 tzuchan

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 07:48 AM

Mikker, I'm not saying that it's impossible to shoot a gun with that design, I'm saying that from an ergonomics viewpoint, that is a very uncomfortable gun to carry, aim, and shoot.

First off, carrying, assuming that when you are not shooting, you let it hang in front of you horizontally... and then a morlock pops up right in front of you, and you have to twist your body in order to bring it to bear... Also, when running, the gun gets in the way because it's banging into your knees with every step. Try this, get one of those overnight bags with shoulder straps, and hold in infront of you like in the picture, then try walking...

Aiming and shooting? Take a look at the pic you posted. Given the placement of the handles, when aiming(Assuming right handed person), the right hand is fine, but the left hand would be forced to twist in a very un-natural 45 degrees relative to the forearm...

I would suggest some more like the smartgun in the above picture, a horizontal bar out one side, a vertical grip to the rear, and the gun clips onto the side of the soldier. That way, it's possible for the gun to point forward even when walking.

*edit* and if the scale is not right, I definately hope that the gun is too big, cause if the gun is bigger than the scale shown, I'd have to say that it's a laser cannon for the fighters that I'm looking at.

Edited by tzuchan, 15 February 2005 - 07:51 AM.

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#55 mikker

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Posted 15 February 2005 - 09:51 AM

the second pic is to scale.

I'd see what i can come up with for a new trigger type.

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#56 mikker

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:29 AM

Like this?

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#57 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:42 AM

That's very good :), kinda reminds me of the Smartguns from the movie Aliens, those were very cool.
I can't help to feel like the upper handle should be before the one on the side, I think it'd be too uncomfortable having to grab the upper part with your arm retracted and the other on the side extended (sorry if I don't make sense, it's hard to explain in english :()

#58 mikker

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:45 AM

I get what you mean, i've thought if it myself. But i just couldn't find a way to make things comftable.

...And it's BASED on the smartgun LOL

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#59 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:48 AM

I get what you mean, i've thought if it myself. But i just couldn't find a way to make things comftable.

...And it's BASED on the smartgun LOL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


To me, if you move the upper handle to the front portion (somewhere the level the other is) and move the side handle to more or less where the upper one is, should be a pretty comfortable (in fact, that's how I remember the smart gun :)).

#60 mikker

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:50 AM

switch positions?! But then the thing would ram your legs. This way, you have the thing beside you, not through you :blink2:

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#61 Vaaish

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:56 AM

Mikker leave the handles in the configuration they are now but move the back handle forward to the center of gravity to balance the weapon.

#62 mikker

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:59 AM

will do.

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#63 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 11:02 AM

switch positions?! But then the thing would ram your legs. This way, you have the thing beside you, not through you :blink2:

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In Aliens did you see them ramming their legs with the smartguns? :), what I'm suggesting is right how it was in that movie. It's fair more stable than now IMO.

Edited by Azrael, 22 February 2005 - 11:04 AM.


#64 mikker

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 11:06 AM

we might be confusing things here.

What i'm suggesting is:

Left hand in front (in center), right hand in back (on right side), weapon on right side.

and visa versa (flip model).

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#65 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 11:10 AM

we might be confusing things here.

What i'm suggesting is:

Left hand in front (in center), right hand in back (on right side), weapon on right side.

and visa versa (flip model).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


That sounds like what I was saying, maybe I wasn't clear :), but what you are suggesting is not what is in your model.

#66 tzuchan

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 11:12 AM

I hope the way you hold the weapon is closer to the image I'm attaching...
(Don't mind the crappy two minute artwork... I'm not in AWD for a very good reason...)

I would still prefer that the horizontal back handle is vertical, but that's more of a personal preference than a truly critical ergonomic decision...

Red for arms, green for handles, black for gun, blue for body.

*edit* Right hand behind the body is good when there's something supporting the center of the weapon(ie the center of gravity) What I'm suggesting id to move the right handle closer to the center to make carrying it easier, while you aim with the left arm.

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Edited by tzuchan, 22 February 2005 - 11:15 AM.

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#67 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 11:16 AM

A vertical handle.. wouldn't there be the risk of the handle slipping from your hand because of the weight of the gun and the rush of the battle? I mean.. it's vertical!, maybe an L shaped handle? Anyway, I like it how Mikker portraited it, but I think the positions are wrong, but mikker's suggestion seems like mine :)

#68 tzuchan

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 11:19 AM

Obviously there should be a finger guard that helps hold the weapon in place... But again, it's more of a personal preference...
(Although it seems like it would be easier to aim that way... Maybe because I'm a space-sim jockey used to a joystick...)
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#69 fux0r666

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 02:42 PM

From a perspective of realism....

how would one aim such a thing?

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#70 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 02:47 PM

Hmmm, you could not expect to do eye surgery with that thing..., but aim of some sorts to a general area and leave a big hole :D

#71 mikker

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 03:17 PM

how they aim? Turn the gun. Easy :P

Really, it's really bulky, but it's not THAT heavy. Maybe 20 kg. Alot of the room inside is vacuum and mirrors. Most of the muzzle at least.

I assume that the part that raises the rear handle will be flexible, basicly attached to a pivot at its base swinging horizontally. The handle will twist arround too, to give the vertical aim. The triggering device has to be moved up to the front piece then. No worries. If the cannoneer holds the rear arm stationary, he can use the front handle to rotate the gun. This way, he can physically aim in a cone of fire at 90 degree, without turning. I tried it out using my air heavy laser rifle (imagination is a good thing to have! :) )

Makes sence?

:hammer:

Edited by mikker, 22 February 2005 - 03:20 PM.

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#72 tzuchan

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 04:07 PM

how they aim? Turn the gun. Easy :P

Really, it's really bulky, but it's not THAT heavy. Maybe 20 kg. Alot of the room inside is vacuum and mirrors. Most of the muzzle at least.

I assume that the part that raises the rear handle will be flexible, basicly attached to a pivot at its base swinging horizontally. The handle will twist arround too, to give the vertical aim. The triggering device has to be moved up to the front piece then. No worries. If the cannoneer holds the rear arm stationary, he can use the front handle to rotate the gun. This way, he can physically aim in a cone of fire at 90 degree, without turning. I tried it out using my air heavy laser rifle (imagination is a good thing to have! :) )

Makes sence?

:hammer:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Kinda... but is entirely unnecessary...
If a person grasps the cannon the way I depicted in my picture, the cannon would basically aim at where the guy is pointing his fist, with the left hand helping support the weapon, hence there's no need for any sort of moving parts...

*edit* Having you tried carrying something weighting 20 kgs or so in your arms? I have... and it's not light. Granted, there weren't any handholds and it was a box, but still...

Edited by tzuchan, 22 February 2005 - 04:08 PM.

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#73 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 04:10 PM

how they aim? Turn the gun. Easy :P

Really, it's really bulky, but it's not THAT heavy. Maybe 20 kg. Alot of the room inside is vacuum and mirrors. Most of the muzzle at least.

I assume that the part that raises the rear handle will be flexible, basicly attached to a pivot at its base swinging horizontally. The handle will twist arround too, to give the vertical aim. The triggering device has to be moved up to the front piece then. No worries. If the cannoneer holds the rear arm stationary, he can use the front handle to rotate the gun. This way, he can physically aim in a cone of fire at 90 degree, without turning. I tried it out using my air heavy laser rifle (imagination is a good thing to have! :) )

Makes sence?

:hammer:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Kinda... but is entirely unnecessary...
If a person grasps the cannon the way I depicted in my picture, the cannon would basically aim at where the guy is pointing his fist, with the left hand helping support the weapon, hence there's no need for any sort of moving parts...

*edit* Having you tried carrying something weighting 20 kgs or so in your arms? I have... and it's not light. Granted, there weren't any handholds and it was a box, but still...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


For a strong soldier it's not much. I think the way despicted in Aliens is the best way.

#74 mikker

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 04:29 AM

but i havn't seen the aliens! :Brickwall:

:P

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#75 tzuchan

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 04:33 AM

Urk...
In Aliens, the Marines had additional support in the form of a waldo arm that's connected to the belt... Check the smartgun pic and you should see what I mean. That thing there supports the center of gravity for the smartgun, so they can hold it the way they do in the movie with out any difficulties.

Unfortunately, modeling such a waldo arm was discuss and discarded as being difficult to implement on to the various soldier models... and as such, this gun needs to be supported near the center of gravity.
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#76 fux0r666

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 05:23 AM

Sighting down the barrel isn't exactly precision aiming. Shooting is not like CS where you point in the general direction using a cross hair that's burned into your retinas to aim. Trust me, without some kind of sighting device, it would be very difficult to hit a mansized target at even 20 yards.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#77 mikker

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 05:44 AM

I DO have a cute little laser sight :)

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#78 Vaaish

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 09:20 AM

mikker, lets see about adding a sight camera on the front of it, similar to the concept behind the Landwarrior system. That should aid sighting the weapon and have it plugged up to an eyepiece.

Fux: I don't see the laser cannon as being particularly accurate, though I don';t see this weapon quite as large as Mikkers scaling of it.

#79 mikker

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 12:00 PM

it should be possible to scale it a bit lower, with the chances of handles.

I'll check out with the sights. (any links of what you mean? I now the OICW, but what sight would you talk about? The gun is too low, and would require hanging a scope quite high in the air, and that would look plain stupid.)

Edited by mikker, 23 February 2005 - 12:12 PM.

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#80 red knight

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 12:09 PM

Well Excelent discussion and excelent work to all involved. However I have to do the devil advocates work here :devillaugh: and ask? Which ones of the 3 models is in a finished (or finished enough so we can move mikker to do another different model?).

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#81 mikker

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 12:13 PM

the laser pistol is finished (at least model-wise), the laser rifle is not even started yet (got some ideas floating arround though), and the heavy laser is being worked on in these moments.

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#82 red knight

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 12:24 PM

Well then we will consider laser pistol done, and how far do you think you are for a preliminary design (like an 80% done weapon) of the heavy plasma so you can start with the rifle? We can tweak the model later.

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#83 Vaaish

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 12:46 PM

yes laser pistol has been finished for some time... Shinzon is texturing it right now.

The laser cannon, with the pending adjustments to the handles and sighting should also be final and awaiting texturing,

Laser Rifle has not been started.


Alien plasma family is modeled but the human versions just do not fit with the rest of the weapons and need to be reworked.

#84 Vaaish

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 12:48 PM

it should be possible to scale it a bit lower, with the chances of handles.

I'll check out with the sights. (any links of what you mean? I now the OICW, but what sight would you talk about? The gun is too low, and would require hanging a scope quite high in the air, and that would look plain stupid.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Sorta like the OICW. not actually siting through the scope... the scope is a video camera zeroed to teh weapon, it transmits the signal to a display screen in the helmet.

#85 mikker

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 01:21 PM

@ Red Knight: Yes sir, will do sir.

@ Vaaich: Good idea. Acturly, this is a good idea for ALL weapons, not just the heavy laser. This should be added into the "standart issue armour" CT.

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 02:05 PM

@ Vaaich: Good idea. Acturly, this is a good idea for ALL weapons, not just the heavy laser. This should be added into the "standart issue armour" CT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it already is, something about a HUD, tell me specifically what you want and we'll see that it fits.

#87 mikker

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 02:10 PM

I think it's actually in use in modern warfare (The landwarrior - thing like Vaaich said). A small camera is placed on top of the weapon (with a little crosshair in the middle), and that leads to a small monitor in front of youre eye. This means that you can see where you are aiming, gunview. AFAIK, you can add night vission to said cameras, for night times.

It shouldn't really do anything, just a little note in the CT.

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#88 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 02:24 PM

I think it's actually in use in modern warfare (The landwarrior - thing like Vaaich said). A small camera is placed on top of the weapon (with a little crosshair in the middle), and that leads to a small monitor in front of youre eye. This means that you can see where you are aiming, gunview. AFAIK, you can add night vission to said cameras, for night times.

It shouldn't really do anything, just a little note in the CT.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I think it's already there, I'll look for it, if not we'll add it.

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 03:29 PM

An attached headset connects each X-Corps agent to his superiors, and has a pull-down screen over the right eye with Shodan target acquisition and evaluation software.

This is on the text already, is this enough?

#90 mikker

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 06:47 AM

Hey - Most of my exams are now dealt with. Only two left. They don't require much time consumeing practice :) So I've got time left.

Heres some updates for the heavy laser. Made a new system, to resamble the auto-cannon more :)

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#91 Moriarty

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 08:08 AM

I like it! looks like a really powerful cannon to me :)
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#92 Vaaish

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 11:02 AM

The shape looks good but the handles are a little awkward. Try making the rear handle more like a joystick and make the forward handle a bit meatier.

#93 mikker

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Posted 02 June 2005 - 02:12 PM

yes, I was wondering the same thing. I was just having a hard time deciding if I had to make it joystick like. I'll change that right away.

Yeah, the front one looked a bit small, I saw something was wrong, just couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks for pointing it out. :)

Oh, and the rear handle is flexible, it can bend like, well, a joystick :)

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#94 mikker

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 07:19 AM

okay, got it. I'll continue with the rear (that wasn't finished BTW) and the underbarrel.

Also, I made the changes to the handles. Better?

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#95 Vaaish

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 08:29 AM

make it beefier... more like the control stick on an f16 or other combat plane... it just looks too delicate to support the weapon. Remove the finger grooves on the forward grip and make it more like a padded rubber bike grip.

Edited by Vaaish, 03 June 2005 - 08:30 AM.


#96 mikker

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 09:08 AM

hmm... Could you supply some pictures of the f16 control stick and this 'padded rubber bike grip'? I've been searching on it with google, but couldn't find any good results.

something like this?

http://www.grip-tek....rods.asp?cat=51

Edited by mikker, 03 June 2005 - 09:09 AM.

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#97 j'ordos

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 12:32 PM

Upon looking at the placement of those grips, I just realized that that this weapon will not be comfortable to hold for long periods of time at all, it requires an almost 90 bend of the wrist from the arm holding the rear grip if the other hand is to hold that other grip. Maybe making the rear grip angle a little more to the front?
Oh and style D7 or D8 seems ok for me, you may add some more pre-formed grip shapes, but definitely keep them less pronounced than what you had, remember they have to be held by a variety of people with different hand sizes. Making those grips with too pronounced shapes makes them very comfortable for those who fit right in them, and terribly uncomfortable for those who don't fit in them

Edited by j'ordos, 03 June 2005 - 12:33 PM.

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#98 mikker

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 01:38 PM

ok, I'll use those. Yeah, looks better when I think about it.

And the joystick is flexible, I bend it to show it.

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#99 Vaaish

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Posted 03 June 2005 - 01:46 PM

http://www.ejections...pic/f16mts1.jpg
http://www.habu2.net...pits/vista2.jpg
http://www.habu2.net...its/B15-OCU.jpg
http://www.habu2.net...its/B40-hud.jpg
http://www.habu2.net...ts/B50-CMFD.jpg


there are some pictures that should give you a good idea of what it looks like.

#100 mikker

mikker

    Artwork Department

  • Xenocide Artwork Department
  • 2,211 posts

Posted 03 June 2005 - 02:20 PM

Hmmm..... I don't know about you Vaaich, but I don't really like that handle. I can make it thicker, but I'm not gonna form the handle like this. It's best function is easy access to buttons - this one doesn't have buttons (well, one maybe, to fire it).

But I'll gladly make it beefier :)

Some people say that dreams are a portal to the subconscious. If that is so, I am a very disturbed person.

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