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#1 Shotgunner

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Posted 10 January 2005 - 05:29 PM

We all know that thoughout X-COm, the humans have whipped ET's donkey(forgive the Independance Day refrence plese). But...whgat if a new X-COm was released - where we played the roles of the aliens?

I think it's worth a discussion, as I can see a mod being made if enough intrest is shown.
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#2 Snakeman

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Posted 10 January 2005 - 05:54 PM

I think like you do that there's a lot of interest in playing the alien side, though I don't know if Xenocide will eventually include this. I believe that the UFO2000 folks are planning for this for their game.

#3 j'ordos

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 07:12 AM

well, there's thought about adding it to xenocide, here's a thread : http://www.xcomufo.c...wtopic=1775&hl= (there's probably more :) ), but you won't see it soon I'm afraid.
Currently you'll have to stick with xcomutil's side swapping and the xcom3 sideswapping utility.
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#4 Danial

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Posted 11 January 2005 - 09:05 AM

The HL Mod, The Last Hope, if it ever gets finished, will allow players to play as the Aliens.

#5 Shotgunner

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Posted 12 January 2005 - 10:18 PM

:cussing:

I was just wondering cause if a mod was done, imagine researching HUMAN weaponry and using it aganist them....

(sees XCOM operatives running in terror as a Sectoid task force picks up Auto-Cannons and goes nutz)

I'll drik to that! :beer:
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#6 teukros

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Posted 13 January 2005 - 09:55 AM

I was just wondering cause if a mod was done, imagine researching HUMAN weaponry and using it aganist them....

(sees XCOM operatives running in terror as a Sectoid task force picks up Auto-Cannons and goes nutz)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Near the Skyranger, the Grey, who you had thought was dead but was merely stunned, wakes up, bounces toward the corpse of an unfortunate Squaddie, picks up the Heavy Cannon with the High Explosive belt, and somehow manages to fire five Snap Shots, hurling five of the massive shells into your soldiers' lightly armored back sides...

Edited by teukros, 13 January 2005 - 05:43 PM.

runs with primed grenades

#7 Shotgunner

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 11:24 AM

Entire squad panics or goes bezerk - X-COM commander proceeds to :Brickwall:
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#8 Snakeman

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 02:15 PM

I like it, its almost like tech sharing between cultures. Only its not heh.

#9 Shotgunner

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Posted 14 January 2005 - 03:16 PM

Well, my argument for making it possible for the alien races to use earth technology is that there is a chance that, since they evolved before humanity, they had the same tech a LONG time ago, and would therefore know how to use it, at the very least somewhat. After all, in UFO Defense, once you research plasma rifles, you can pick up the alien's weaponry and use it, at least until it's out of ammo(until you research the clips, that is). So why not the other way around? :rock:
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#10 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 15 January 2005 - 10:20 AM

Well, my argument for making it possible for the alien races to use earth technology is that there is a chance that, since they evolved before humanity, they had the same tech a LONG time ago, and would therefore know how to use it, at the very least somewhat. After all, in UFO Defense, once you research plasma rifles, you can pick up the alien's weaponry and use it, at least until it's out of ammo(until you research the clips, that is). So why not the other way around? :rock:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Alien and human tecnology are DIFFERENT, so some human weapons has things that alien ones does not have. (Traps like proximites, fire like incendiary ones, smoke to cover movements...) So aliens and humans should learn each from the other.

#11 Greylocke

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 08:44 PM

Well, my argument for making it possible for the alien races to use earth technology is that there is a chance that, since they evolved before humanity, they had the same tech a LONG time ago, and would therefore know how to use it, at the very least somewhat


If I put a Arquebus in your hands would you know how to load and fire it? (OK maybe if it was already loaded you might figure the firing mech out....) but that's an example of just 300 year tec gap since we were using them...
If the aliens had solid projectile weapons 500 years ago they prolly wouldnt know how to use em now.
But studying the tec to use it is an excellent idea, even along the line of best defense against it.

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#12 Tsereve

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Posted 30 May 2005 - 08:53 PM

LOL

I think aliens should have to research stuff like humans do, to keep it fair. I mean, if we have to weather hundreds of terror missions before we finish work on the Heavy Plasma?
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#13 Shotgunner

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 09:20 PM

LOL

I think aliens should have to research stuff like humans do, to keep it fair. I mean, if we have to weather hundreds of terror missions before we finish work on the Heavy Plasma?


Now that I think about it, aliens, even assuming that at one time they had the "current" humantech, will have probably have forgotten enough to have to research it once again.

Heh I forgot this topic was still up.....
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#14 Empyrean

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 04:21 AM

Modern firearms are really, really simple to learn how to use. Five minutes of observing someone with an AK shows you everything there is to know about that gun, and even if you have no assistance, modern firearms are still purely mechanical devices. Not only does requiring aliens to research the simplistic weapons of earth make no sense, it's a bad idea from a gameplay perspective. Why would anyone bother figuring out how to use an inferior weapon in the first place? They've got plasma rifles, what do they care about our primitive toys?

#15 Mad

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 04:27 AM

Why would anyone bother figuring out how to use an inferior weapon in the first place? They've got plasma rifles, what do they care about our primitive toys?

Well, because the newly developed Magnetic shield armour makes X-COM operatives almost immune against plasma shots... So relying on old projectile weaponry might be the only chance left... :)
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#16 Snakeman

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 05:21 AM

Not only does requiring aliens to research the simplistic weapons of earth make no sense, it's a bad idea from a gameplay perspective. Why would anyone bother figuring out how to use an inferior weapon in the first place? They've got plasma rifles, what do they care about our primitive toys?


Its been my belief that in a theoretical kind of game where you can play either side and both require research of each others' stuff - that the answer isn't about who has what advances over the other in the start. In my opinion, its all about what you can do with hybrids between the two as the game progresses as well as improvements being done to standard starting gear.

Humans think outside the box I would think more than an alien hive mind type culture might. But that doesn't preclude them necessarily from learning from their encounters with us.

#17 Empyrean

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Posted 17 July 2006 - 06:42 PM

I'd say that any culture capable of instigating and waging an interstellar war is probably going to have an edge over us in the "creative thinking" department.

Well, because the newly developed Magnetic shield armour makes X-COM operatives almost immune against plasma shots... So relying on old projectile weaponry might be the only chance left... smile.gif

So why would they bother making an inferior designs like ours? They've got super efficient antimatter power sources, remember? Why would they bother with a gunpowder weapon? Railguns or coilguns (coilguns are also known as gauss rifles) would make a much better weapon.

#18 Mad

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 01:02 AM

So why would they bother making an inferior designs like ours? They've got super efficient antimatter power sources, remember? Why would they bother with a gunpowder weapon? Railguns or coilguns (coilguns are also known as gauss rifles) would make a much better weapon.

hmm.. because they lost the ability to think creatively in complete new ways due to the mindcontrol? Or, because they are working on sth. like this, but since they never did sth. like this before, it takes longer than researching how to use human weapons. So they need our stuff for the transition phase.
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#19 Empyrean

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 01:56 AM

You've got to be kidding. That's a really weak excuse for an advanced civilization to "research" a bunch of primitive and readily available weapons. There are at most three moving parts that you need to be able to operate in order to fire a contemporary firearm, all of which are basically impossible to get wrong. You can't pull a trigger the wrong way, for example. Guns are really frigging obvious; you'd have to be way beyond mentally retarded not to be able to figure them out in less than five minutes.

In the United States in 1999, there were 73 children under the age of five who accidentally killed themselves with firearms. That shows about how hard it is to get a gun to operate. If these mind-controlled aliens have the brainpower necessary to distinguish soldiers from trees, they're probably smart enough to figure out how to use a gun.

You could include them in a tech tree along with "taking a crap" and "feeding yourself". That's about the level of complexity we're looking at, so if they've got to dedicate frigging scientists to figure out something that human infants are capable of, they'll probably need those others too.

Edited by Empyrean, 18 July 2006 - 01:58 AM.


#20 kafros

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 02:28 AM

Then, why should they conduct research anyway? In 1 hour, they will research the topic "Human weaponry", and in some days "Human Tactics". Then, they will kill us in a matter of weeks. Simple?

#21 Snakeman

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 02:47 AM

I don't think its that weak at all (some of the research aspects anyway). Look at it this way, If the brain had any brains, he'd figure out a way to make our weaponry that we've been good at killing his army with, and come up with new nightmarish ways to use those same principles against us in combat with something either as a hybrid or something completely new to intimidate us with. They thrive on terror and chaos and a smart warrior studies its enemies, especially where they've been successful against it.

Perhaps, in the meantime while they research their hybrids, make them more dangerous and let them use our old weapons if dropped in the field. Then, they won't just have the indirect ways to use them (psi) but direct as well. They've been spying on us a long time before we even knew of them, so between that and their psi powers, that would easily explain as well why they could just pick up and use something of ours.

That said, naturally I wouldn't expect their hybrids to look anything like we come up with with ours. This is probably where the strongest research will be, in hybrids. Beyond that for weapons, I imagine the only research left at the tail end would be WMDs.

I'm starting to think that the research should be broken down by 'haven't seens' if you will. Stuff that is or has to be in the other's research that the other guy hasn't seen or confronted yet. Aliens might be able to use the stock human gear right away, but what they can't use right away are any research improvements made to them by humans until they get their hands on it.

Alien research would probably go a lot faster too (in the single player campaign at least) they'd get all relevant sub research categories faster if they know how to use it from the get go. i.e. They know how to use and have in their possesion High Explosive packs that came from us (taken during battle). They can use them as they are, or they can research the E-155 variant, their update to their alien grenade, or <insert whatever your imagination can think of here>.

What happens here (I'm talking about everything on the human market) is that they don't have to research the original piece first since its known to them, but what they get right away are all the subcategories open to them. I think they should still have at least one of said item in their inventory to get it started though just like we do.

#22 Empyrean

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Posted 18 July 2006 - 02:12 PM

Then, why should they conduct research anyway? In 1 hour, they will research the topic "Human weaponry", and in some days "Human Tactics". Then, they will kill us in a matter of weeks. Simple?

That's a straw man. Tactics are orders of magnitude more complex than the weapons we're using, and even if you are familiar with the tactics that the other side uses, that doesn't mean you're going to win.

Look at it this way, If the brain had any brains, he'd figure out a way to make our weaponry that we've been good at killing his army with, and come up with new nightmarish ways to use those same principles against us in combat with something either as a hybrid or something completely new to intimidate us with.

If having "any brains" is the only requirement for coming up with new nightmarish hybrid weaponry, then neither side has any brains, otherwise somebody would have come up with hybrid weaponry.

They thrive on terror and chaos and a smart warrior studies its enemies, especially where they've been successful against it.

I don't know about you, but the weapons that I've been successful with happen to be the ones the aliens thought of in the first place. Heavy Plasma Rifles, Blaster Launchers, Alien Grenades... lasers aren't horrible, but they're hardly tipping the balance of power away from Blaster Launchers.

Perhaps, in the meantime while they research their hybrids, make them more dangerous and let them use our old weapons if dropped in the field. Then, they won't just have the indirect ways to use them (psi) but direct as well. They've been spying on us a long time before we even knew of them, so between that and their psi powers, that would easily explain as well why they could just pick up and use something of ours.

Other than the inherent simplicity of our weapons, simple enough that children can just pick them up and use them, that's a reasonable explaination. Allowing the aliens to just pick up and use our weapons makes sense, and being able to research different and new technologies based in part upon our designs would be a reasonable topic of research for the aliens.

#23 Blitzen

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Posted 19 July 2006 - 12:03 AM

Better yet? an Alien group is exploring a nearby star... They find a pretty planet! They investigate!! They sense on thier sensors a massive armada of thier old enemies (X-com) aproaching! They must dig in and prepare for the worst!!! FEND OFF X-COM!!!!



BTW X-com is NEW and IMPROVED!!! with disruptor armor! Devastator cannons! and more!!! you as the stalwart sectoid regional commander must capture, research, and build new weapons and armor! You must protect the innocent slaves of the world from the horrible atroctities that X-com will visit upon them!
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#24 Snakeman

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Posted 19 July 2006 - 04:50 AM

Look at it this way, If the brain had any brains, he'd figure out a way to make our weaponry that we've been good at killing his army with, and come up with new nightmarish ways to use those same principles against us in combat with something either as a hybrid or something completely new to intimidate us with.

If having "any brains" is the only requirement for coming up with new nightmarish hybrid weaponry, then neither side has any brains, otherwise somebody would have come up with hybrid weaponry.


Sometimes innovations in combat gear stem from actually having been in combat over a period of time however.

They thrive on terror and chaos and a smart warrior studies its enemies, especially where they've been successful against it.

I don't know about you, but the weapons that I've been successful with happen to be the ones the aliens thought of in the first place. Heavy Plasma Rifles, Blaster Launchers, Alien Grenades... lasers aren't horrible, but they're hardly tipping the balance of power away from Blaster Launchers.


And, using this logic, since the topic was orignally about playing as the aliens, it stands to reason they'll need other items to research as battles become a little more even. In my opinion, if it doesn't rest with hybrid or a seperate tier of research above the plasmas and launchers, then its my guess then that it'll have to rest with new breeds of terror agents or more of them in varied quantities and in any battle (more Zombies, Chryssalis, Cyberdiscs, Reapers. the lava rock creature and that spitting venom floaty sack thing (ok, I can't spell those last two)) despite whichever "primary handler" was seen by your HWD as being the UFO's crew.

It makes perfect sense that a human player playing the alien side would mix up their crew compliments anyway, but doesn't have to preclude improvements or enhancements even to them, or even how they're deployed (I had an idea once for base assaults that the aliens might come up with a launcher system for those rock creatures - to counteract their slow traveling speed at the start).

Perhaps, in the meantime while they research their hybrids, make them more dangerous and let them use our old weapons if dropped in the field. Then, they won't just have the indirect ways to use them (psi) but direct as well. They've been spying on us a long time before we even knew of them, so between that and their psi powers, that would easily explain as well why they could just pick up and use something of ours.

Other than the inherent simplicity of our weapons, simple enough that children can just pick them up and use them, that's a reasonable explaination. Allowing the aliens to just pick up and use our weapons makes sense, and being able to research different and new technologies based in part upon our designs would be a reasonable topic of research for the aliens.


Forgive my quote from Star Wars, but I thought it fit with this discussion since its also about tactics and you made a good point about that in your first response in your last post...

Rebel Briefing

Pilot: "What good are snubfighters against the Death Star?"
Gen. Dodonna: "What the Empire doesn't consider is that a small one man fighter to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense."

I think despite how the tech trees figure out for each side, tactics are very much as important as what toys you ultimately get to play with.

#25 Shotgunner

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 09:02 PM

You've got to be kidding. That's a really weak excuse for an advanced civilization to "research" a bunch of primitive and readily available weapons. There are at most three moving parts that you need to be able to operate in order to fire a contemporary firearm, all of which are basically impossible to get wrong. You can't pull a trigger the wrong way, for example. Guns are really frigging obvious; you'd have to be way beyond mentally retarded not to be able to figure them out in less than five minutes.

In the United States in 1999, there were 73 children under the age of five who accidentally killed themselves with firearms. That shows about how hard it is to get a gun to operate. If these mind-controlled aliens have the brainpower necessary to distinguish soldiers from trees, they're probably smart enough to figure out how to use a gun.

You could include them in a tech tree along with "taking a crap" and "feeding yourself". That's about the level of complexity we're looking at, so if they've got to dedicate frigging scientists to figure out something that human infants are capable of, they'll probably need those others too.


Empyrean, I will agree with you that firearms are not terribily difficult to operate and learn to operate. However, the sheer psychological value is wrth the effort of learning the "oldtech", shall we say.

Or, alien armors could be made to negate bullet damage, then laser damage. Or explosive damage, etc.

If humans are adaptable to situations, why not other species? After all, adaptation is a key of life - adapt and live, or ignore and die - it's that simple.
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#26 Blehm 98

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 09:47 PM

also as a note, someone who has been using weapons that fire a bright green glob of snot at enemies would certainly be confused when they shoot a weapon that makes a loud boom, makes recoil, and only one of three rounds can be seen
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#27 Empyrean

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 11:50 PM

Seeing a weapon fired a single time should let them know what to expect. Stop pretending the aliens are frigging brain damaged and think about it for a second.

#28 Blehm 98

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 12:01 AM

you could compare it to 15 years of shooting a bow and arrow, and then being given an M16
of course you'd learn to use it within a couple days, but it would takes weeks to learn proper technique, and years to learn to shoot it well. You'd also have to learn regular mantainance for the weapon, how to hold it, and how to compensate for recoil and bullet drop when shooting at targets long distances away. It takes months to years for humans to learn how to shoot a weapon made by humans very well. It would take much longer for an alien, who is used to their kind of weapon, to learn to shoot a human weapon with any real skill
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#29 Empyrean

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 02:29 AM

That's a ridiculous learning curve. Give a kid an AK and he'll know how to shoot it within five minutes. All this "years of mastery" stuff is pure crap. The USMC Scout Sniper program lasts two months, and most of that time is spent learning fieldcraft skills like stalking and camoflauge. A person can become a very proficient marksman in a month or less, and it's not like our weapons are easier to learn just because another human being made them. A person who's never seen a machine gun before knows precisely jack about it. This concept of an intuitive racial understanding is crap, too. Bullet drop matters when you're firing at ranges far beyond what most small arms are capable of, and even then, it's not like plasma isn't affected by gravity. It's got mass, remember? An arcing trajectory isn't a foreign concept.

Stupid line of reasoning. Abandon it.

#30 Shotgunner

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 06:48 AM

OK, how aobut a different line of reasoning - as humans, XCOM can capture or destroy UFO Supply Missions. Why not the aliens?

Besides, if they can sneak human-like members into governments, why can't they infiltrate an XCOM base? "bean-bol" ammo was a popular sabotage in Vietnam(bean-bol caused the weapon to explode when fired). And if the aliens don't know how humantech works, they can't sabotage it, can they? It would have to work like a Psi-Amp attack - a CHANCE of success, not guarenteed.
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#31 Snakeman

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 10:21 AM

An alternate way of infiltrating or hitting a base like X-COM I would think have to mean that they managed to get observers in among those that supply it. That's money trails, equipment trails, personell trails etc. not just to find a base location (apart from scouting with ships), but to send in smaller teams to cause damage, then either flees or is expected to die after it got there.

This might explain the logic of such an alternative strategy, but I run into problems of implimentation. Certainly, if this is a single player game we're talking about, this would probably just mean the same thing happens as with base assaults - the base battlescape loads. I'd have problems if this were multiplayer though (forcing a 'scape to load when another player didn't expect it).

Now, what are the objectives? Same as in base assaults I would imagine, but maybe this time its not so much the objective to kill the base with this team infiltration method (taking out the command center). Maybe its to damage or disable certain base modules to hinder the opponent's war goals for a time which forces them to rebuild, rehire or reconstruct units or reinstitute some feature the base now lacked because of this type of attack.

Targets or objectives I'd expect to go after at an X-COM base if I were playing as the aliens:

- Mind Shield - Opens the base to being detected by UFOs again a little easier.

- Any defensive structure - When the UFOs do come calling, improves the odds of one being able to land to conduct a traditional assault.

- Hangers - Reduces or eliminates the capacity for the base to have intercepting capability from there for a while.

- Alien Containment - Free any live captives to help you out as you do what you do. That would be the immediate beneift to you, having more units. Downside for the enemy is that research topics in progress become halted or postponed.

- Living Quarters - Disable one or more reduces the human capacity at the base (if not through outright killing) through its inability to support them.

- Stores - Same as living quarters, but reduces or makes unavailable those things that had occupied it.

- Radar and/or command structure - Could be broken down into separate objectives if the goal was not to destroy the base with this type of attack

------ 1) Capture a ranking leader for interrogation afterwards (one boon among others could be the location of at least one other X-COM base).

------ 2) Deactivation of weapons systems to allow for better odds at team extraction.

------ 3) Deactivation of internal defenses. Depending on the order of events, may mean how good a time you had as you progressed. Its bad enough if you have soldiers to go up against, its harder if there were any internal automated security stations to contend with as well.

- Access Lift - This is what brings you in if not through a hanger. If there are no hangers left, the access lift is the only way to leave the mission (unless I suppose if you didn't kamakazi yourself) alive. Once outside, its the only means to alert your people of the base location as a result of such an assault. Otherwise its only through long patrols with ships as the traditonal method.

- Labs and Workshops - Essentially the same thing as Living Quarters and Stores but dealing with manufacturing and research capacity/progress.

Some of these objectives could be linked together in order to get a desired outcome. For instance, for ratting out the base location, you not only have to make it to the exit rallying point, but maybe you also had to have taken out the Mind Shield at a minimum (maybe its effects extend a limited distance from the base as the reasoning here).

Another side objective (Dipstick came up with this one I think) could be to try to ride on supply ships from base to base, causing as much damage as you could before the inevitible. Course, I suppose it might have to mean hotwiring a ship to make the idea palatable. After all, alarms are going off around the base depending on what you did so it may be the only alternative to make base hopping assaults work. Otherwise I'd imagine it'd have to tie in with something else you do in the control center (find one base location, alert that base that they're about to recieve some "supplies" or whatever)

Infiltration to me means things like this, specific targets or objectives to do as well as interacting with the battlescape environments in different ways. It shouldn't always mean going in with guns blazing.

Edited by Snakeman, 26 July 2006 - 10:26 AM.


#32 Blehm 98

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 12:45 PM

a kid won't learn to shoot an AK47 well for quite some time
a very small number of people can be snipers

and don't forget, as i said before the aliens mastered a weapon with completely different characteristics than a rifle. Regardless of what you think, aliens would not learn to shoot a rifle with a high level of proficiency for several months at least

Also, another thing. If i were to, say, give my brother an Ak47, of course he could shoot it. But it would take him some time to learn to hold it, reloading it wouldn't be too tough, but he'd have to learn to fix jams, not to mention the fact that learning how to load magazines with bullets might take him a while to do proficiently. Don't forget the aliens have no one to show them how to use these weapons that are completely foreign to them, just getting used to recoil and invisible bullets would take some time

and a SAW or another machine gun... There's no way an alien could learn to use those unless they sat there for weeks. The recoil would be hard, but they'd learn to compensate. Then comes loading it, which isn't too tough. But the first time an alien cooks off a round, they'd have no way to stop it until the barrel melts and the gun gets destroyed (shooting with a melted barrel is not a good idea)
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#33 Empyrean

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 06:34 PM

a kid won't learn to shoot an AK47 well for quite some time

Unsupported assertion. Obviously false, considering the proliferation of child soldiers. If they couldn't fight, they wouldn't be used as soldiers.

a very small number of people can be snipers

Most people who drop out of sniper training fail in the stalking element, the marksmanship element is far easier. The History channel runs documentaries on sniper schools every once in a while. Watch one.

Besides, you don't need to be a sniper to be a proficient marksman, the short duration of sniper schools was just given to show that claiming firearms take "years to master" is absolute crap.

Also, another thing. If i were to, say, give my brother an Ak47, of course he could shoot it. But it would take him some time to learn to hold it, reloading it wouldn't be too tough, but he'd have to learn to fix jams, not to mention the fact that learning how to load magazines with bullets might take him a while to do proficiently.

Boot camp lasts two weeks in the United States, and only a small part of that is dedicated to actual maintenance of a particular weapon. This is not complex at all. Anybody can pick up a weapon, find a moving part, and push it. Very simple, very obvious. It doesn't take a scientist to figure this crap out. That is what we're debating, remember?

Don't forget the aliens have no one to show them how to use these weapons that are completely foreign to them, just getting used to recoil and invisible bullets would take some time.

Plasma has mass. Accelerating mass produces a counter-force. A weapon that launches plasma has recoil. You don't know your physics, so you should drop this point because you don't know what you're talking about.

and a SAW or another machine gun... There's no way an alien could learn to use those unless they sat there for weeks. The recoil would be hard, but they'd learn to compensate. Then comes loading it, which isn't too tough. But the first time an alien cooks off a round, they'd have no way to stop it until the barrel melts and the gun gets destroyed (shooting with a melted barrel is not a good idea)

Are you frigging kidding me? That is retarded. To begin with, crew served weapons aren't any more complex than typical small arms. Second, most squad-level support weapons don't have enough ammunition to melt a barrel in the event of a cook-off. The most common support weapons (the RPK and PKM) typically use boxes of 100 rounds or less. The SAW has a 200 round box, but it still won't melt a barrel before it runs dry.

You're grasping at straws, here. It's futile, you should just forget about it.

#34 Blehm 98

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 08:30 PM

I still don't agree with you, but lets get back on topic
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#35 Shotgunner

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 11:13 PM

OK, ok - Mexican Stnadoff. This headcutting is officially a tie. A lot fo good points made here:

- plasma DOES have some mass

- most support weapons(unless they have an unreasonably long belt of ammo) will not be fired long enough to damage the barrel

- Human weaponry isn't too difficult to learn

One small note aobut child soldiers though - most of them are forced into it, ability with weapons be damned.
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#36 Empyrean

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 04:27 AM

If they weren't worth something, it wouldn't be worth forcing them to fight.

#37 NKF

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 04:59 AM

edit: Executive Summary: Aliens - too smart - forgotten simple things

I haven't really been following this thread too closely, but the last few posts have made me want to share a story I studied in English Literature back when I was in high school.

I can't remember the name of it, and I do not remember the author. I keep thinking Roald Dahl for some reason. Anyway, it was a sci-fi story set in the far future. Man had progressed to such great levels of technology that they had machines do things for them. Of course, by then, humans had forgotten all the basics. Like simple addition and subtraction. Oh, and there was a war between two planets, and this was at a bit of a standstill, with neither side being able to beat the other.

This smart chap by the name of Myron Aub (the one bit I can remember accurately) rediscovers simple mathematics and baffles the bigwigs in his ability to perform calculations without the help of a calculator. This impresses them and all that.

The story ends up with the military misusing this knowledge to make missiles with human pilots and this Aub chap ends up committing suicide, not having intended his rediscovery to be used in such a way.

Perhaps, the aliens are so advanced that they are only able to work with their own technologies, and understanding the basic principals of ballistic firearms and gunpowder is an 'alien' concept to them. In order to properly 'remember' all this, they have to spend some time relearning how all the basics work. And I'm sure, some simple human-based technologies may be much more efficient than their high tech hyper energy or psionic equivalents. Imagine if their energy supplies, ammunition and exotic materials are low, they'd need to be able to work with what's around them on this alien world they're trying to invade.

Or something like that. Toodles.

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Edited by NKF, 27 July 2006 - 05:10 AM.

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#38 Blehm 98

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 11:47 AM

yeah, because of the hivish type society the aliens live in, the brain and his Etherial and Sectoid commanders probably have enough control over their lesser beings that they'd probably be the only ones capable of doing things beyond what they're supposed to do (if they are taught only what they need to know to do their job they'd have problems improvising or learning to use different weapons they are unfamiliar with)
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#39 Empyrean

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 01:30 PM

I can't remember the name of it, and I do not remember the author.

I remember reading this in middle school, although I think they were interested in weaning people off of their calculators more than anything else.

Link.

Blehm, stop pretending that the aliens are retarded. Look at the weapons they use. They've got triggers and clips. You point them at the enemy. The opening on the clip is even on the same side, and you still have to reload them manually. They can alternate between semi-auto and fully automatic fire. If I didn't know which was which, I couldn't tell you by the art whether the plasma rifle or the laser rifle were made by the aliens. That is how similar the weapons are.

#40 Shotgunner

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Posted 27 July 2006 - 02:42 PM

OK, ok - enough already! I dont mind the debate but guys - it's starting to sound like its aobut to become personal. No offense intended guys but please try to remember that this is just opinions.

NKF makes a good point about "forgetting" lesser technology. And besides, I don't think there is a single person on this board that has NOT had to revert back to older tech at some point in the game(not enough e-115, lack of money to produce plasma tech, etc.). Granted this will have happened in your first playing experiences, but i'm sure it has happened at least ONCE...well, to most people; I should be realistic with this comment.

And I don't mean to sound like Im siding with Emperyan, but the aliens are NOT exactly dependant on thier commanders to make decisions. I think it would fall more into the background of Geiger's Aliens - what the Queen knows the drones know also. For the purpose of this topic, it is a case of the Commanders learning and the lesser ones acquiring the knoweledge through telepathic or other means.

Lastly, once I have researched plasma pistols and plasma rifles, I tend to have my rocket teams, autocannon teams and/or heavy cannon teams scavenge these items for themselves(and others if needed). This is a reverse-case of what I was thinking originally when I first made this topic - allowing the aliens the ability to use human tech, once it is "learned". You going to tell me that once you learn the plasma pistols and rifles(before you have enough e-115 for constant manufacturing that is) that you don't grab weapons and clips off of the alien bodies for your own usage?
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#41 Kratos

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 01:35 AM

Blehm, stop pretending that the aliens are retarded. Look at the weapons they use. They've got triggers and clips. You point them at the enemy. The opening on the clip is even on the same side, and you still have to reload them manually. They can alternate between semi-auto and fully automatic fire. If I didn't know which was which, I couldn't tell you by the art whether the plasma rifle or the laser rifle were made by the aliens. That is how similar the weapons are.

From your view in the eyes of a alien soldier, you're correct. However, from a human soldier's perspective, they have the same view. Now the question is, why did the humans have to research? 1) You can't manufacture something without understanding the structure and material in the way it was built. (This goes for aliens as well.) 2) Gameplay. It is just how the game's rules went. And the only thing you can argue here is that the creator's were dumb, BUT they realized gameplay is another part of the game, which doesn't appear to be something you like to hear. :)

Now let's talk about "why" would aliens research our technology. A backwards gameplay of "Conserve and Gather" resources as much as you can to defeat the human race so you don't run out wouldn't be false since their food source is "us" and they "need" those funds for supply and demand, and we are not going without a fight. :)
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#42 Empyrean

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 02:59 AM

Don't try to portray me as being "anti-gameplay" or whatever that means. Just because I'm making appeals to common frigging sense doesn't mean I'm opposed to decisions made for the sake of better gameplay. Expending resources to develop inferior weapons is a stupid gameplay mechanic, in addition to making no sense at all.

Now let's talk about "why" would aliens research our technology. A backwards gameplay of "Conserve and Gather" resources as much as you can to defeat the human race so you don't run out wouldn't be false since their food source is "us" and they "need" those funds for supply and demand, and we are not going without a fight. smile.gif

This doesn't seem to make much sense. Economics happens to be my area of expertise, and I've never seen anyone suggest that funds are needed for supply and demand. Supply and demand exist separate from any particular medium of exchange. You're using some economic terms in very... unorthodox ways, and I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're getting at.

#43 Snakeman

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 06:00 AM

I think I do. The aliens economy to me doesn't have use for money. I think for them its all about the gathering of raw materials and manufacturing what they need to meet X capacity or capability. They take what's around them where appropriate. If anything, the closest thing to "money" would be E-115 for without it they couldn't do most of the things they do.

So unless they have an unknown method to ferry material back and forth to their other territories (wherever this element is plentiful) and this solar system, this actually becomes more of a race against the clock who can deplete who's stockpile of E-115 first besides attacking each other's war machines. Or its about being able to go out there and find more.

This is also a perfect example of why different technology or falling back on slightly less sophisticated space farring technology (or not as drastic a fallback - perhaps a parallel technology like nuclear, fusion or fission based) might be prudent.

See I think both X-COM's goal as well as one of the aliens' goals is to be self sustaining among others, but we rely on money to get things done where they don't. Even if X-COM could free its self from a money driven economy to stay afloat, we both rely on E-115 midstage. Ironic if you consider in what ways this element can be used or jeopardized along the way for both sides and whether there could be introduced a technological stalemate or not.

E-115 is basically the key I believe to whether or not both sides technology would need to ebb and flow in unexpected directions.

Nothing to see here. Just another pet theory of mine, move along

Edited by Snakeman, 28 July 2006 - 06:03 AM.


#44 Shotgunner

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Posted 28 July 2006 - 06:14 AM

You know, this is almost beginning to sound like the planning session for a NEW game, not a mod LOL.

Snakeman hit it squarly on the head - the supply and demand of E-155 dictates how quickly you can advance with technology. Once you have plasma weaponry, you can screw up several times(losing craft and/or weaponry) - that's a loss of E-115. If the squad was large enough it could potentially reduce your supply of E-115 to a dangerously low level, forcing you to rely once again on the "lesser" laser technologies(and possibily heavy & auto cannons, and rocket launchers) until said supply was returned to normal.
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#45 stewart

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 10:30 AM

Maybe a good way to handle this is. They can use them right away and use them but they'd have a penalty (BTW that could work both ways). Afterall we could pick-up an atlotl (sorry for the spelling Im too lazy to look it up) and probably get it working after a few cracks at it.

Maybe the point of research is to be able to build and use effectively the technologies.
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#46 Empyrean

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 11:03 AM

I think I do. The aliens economy to me doesn't have use for money. I think for them its all about the gathering of raw materials and manufacturing what they need to meet X capacity or capability. They take what's around them where appropriate.

Human economies work the same way. We just use money to calculate the costs and benefits of alternative uses of the same resources.

If anything, the closest thing to "money" would be E-115 for without it they couldn't do most of the things they do.

Money helps in economic calculation, but it doesn't give us any additional manufacturing capability. A few economists make this mistake as well, thinking that productive output is limited by the money supply, but because prices adjust to any quantity of money they are mistaken on that point. Money is just a medium of exchange, it isn't actually a resource or a component of production. E-115 is a commodity that would make a decent medium of exchange, but it's not actually money because nobody uses it that way.

Snakeman hit it squarly on the head - the supply and demand of E-155 dictates how quickly you can advance with technology.

A lot of people tend to refer to supply and demand without actually thinking about whether they mean one, the other, or both. In this case, I think you're just referring to supply, not demand. Your desire for E-115 isn't going to increase or decrease your rate of technological advancement. How much you actually have is what matters, and your demand for E-115 is in large part a function of your current level of advancement. Kind of a fine point, but where economics is concerned, no point is too fine. :)

#47 Lans

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Posted 31 July 2006 - 05:19 PM

A good example of how aliens could learn something from us is with the simple rocket launcher.

Yes, they got Blaster Launchers already, but what could happen if they find a rocket launcher and start researching it?

They could probably add a waypoint system to the rocket, make a rocket with alien alloys and way more elerium that they could need for a normal blaster bomb, making a way bigger blast, then just adjusting the rocket launcher to fire that missile.

With a Waypoint Rocket Launcher they could probably discard the Blaster Launcher, since the rocket they made based on the human rocket is more explosive that they normal blaster bomb.

But since this is way more heavy, probably only Mutons could use it.

Now if they start researching on a nuclear warhead...

I think i made some sense :huh?:

Sorry for bad grammar, english is not my native language

#48 NKF

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 02:23 AM

Don't worry about your grammar. A lot of native English speakers tend to be a lot worse. ;)

Unfortunately, I don't think that would work. See, why overpower a primitive weapon when they can do it better on their own?

Now, if the aliens were working on a limited amount of resources, and they too had to spend cash (or whatever passes for cash to the aliens - psibucks?) to build up their army, then perhaps using your enemies resources to bolster your own would come in handy. Re-learn primitive techniques that they've since long forgotten to improve their own equipment by being able produce similar if not better equipment using less hard-to-get materials.

In the current game as it is, the aliens have unlimited resources. But that's just a game idiosyncrasy introduced to allow the players an endless supply of missions to play. But if we were to actually play the aliens, I'm sure their resources would be limited to what they've brought with them, the small amount that they can ship from their home world from time to time (i.e. the parallel to nationwide funding - perhaps you need to please the funding alien warlords to get sponsored by them) and what they can scavenge off the primitive race they're trying to opress. Since it's easier to scavenge off the planet they're raiding and then using these resources to improve their war machine, they may as well try to understand what they're recovering so that they can use it and adapt it to their needs. Sure, they know about pulling the trigger makes it go bang at the other end, but do they know how to clean and service it and keep it in good shape? And other things that wouldn't make it into the game. But...

Blast, I'm starting to ramble - and think about crumpets. Never ever had one in my life and I'm thinking about them. Folks, whatever you do, remember to take regular breaks. It's imperative.

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Edited by NKF, 01 August 2006 - 02:28 AM.

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#49 Shotgunner

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 08:19 AM

Brwak? Whats a break? ;)
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#50 zaimoni

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Posted 01 August 2006 - 09:04 AM

If we added researching human weapons to a remake, the Alien Proximity Grenade could require both Proximity Grenade and Alien Grenade as prerequisites.

More interesting is armor and tanks. Even if the aliens were mentally blocked enough to not think of the armors, capturing samples might give ideas for the "smart aliens" (Sectoid, Ethereal, possibly Snakeman)

No intuition sure about how explosive weapons would relate to plasma tech, but surely there are applications for less impessive shootable explosives than the Blaster Bomb.

I'd assume that only UFOs with all power plants intact could recover samples.