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#51 Tuoppi

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 12:50 PM

Look this image and you´ll see that martial arts ar not so stupid.

I never claimed martial arts are stupid. They just don't serve any role in modern warfare. Not even in VerySpecOps™.

But aliens don't have 5mm thick iron armor--even the Mutons only have a tough skin layer (I think). Sectoids, Etherials, etc. only have an exoskeleton. Cyberdisks and Sectopods are the only ones immune to these weapons.

Ufopaedia says them be tough, most aliens took several riflehits ingame too. If i got it right, even sectoids are going to wear somekind of armor in xenocide. Still, this was mostly to demonstrate lack of damage potential of swords.(You can pump at least 10 shots with normal assault rifle in time of one swordblow. And which one do you think will damage worse, no matter what the armor?)

And a sword made from alien alloys won't be too unwieldy. A quick slash cutting off a weapon-arm would be extremely significant.

I didn't mean a sword as being unwieldy, its variants are the best melee weapon there has ever been. I meant that as it hungs and swings in its sheath from your belt, back or some other form of carryaid it is very likely to be the end of you as it makes noise, inbalances movement, gets stuck in places and weighs. Mobility and reactions mean life in building-combat (citywarfare?) as much as tactics.

Edited by Tuoppi, 26 January 2005 - 12:58 PM.


#52 JakeDrake

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 02:41 PM

Look this image and you´ll see that martial arts ar not so stupid.


LOL once again, those few brittle bricks are absolutely nothing compared to even modern human body armor; not only that but that martial artist has prepared for years and concentrated and prepared for that strike for much too long to perform in battle.

Look, its just not gonna happen guys. I am 99% certain (as certain as I am about anything in my life) that katanas and martial arts will NOT be included in the game. Did anyone read my earlier post? I think it is pretty clear from even just those points that this feature is incredibly improbable. As for this new idea of "grappling" with an enemy during reaction fire, its completely unnecessary. You say it could be used when opening doors as a quicker way to react instead of bringing your gun to aim at the enemy. Ummm...don't you think any soldier taking point through the entrance to an enemy alien's craft (even if he is a rookie) is gonna have gun ready and aimed right at that door??? Come on guys, don't try to justify this feature with realism because you will LOSE. Also don't bother trying to justify it through gameplay as I will make sure you lose there as well. Basically just stop. Stop posting on this thread so I can stop seeing it in the "latest post" button and I can stop coming in here to prove you wrong.

Seriously, there are more pressing matters here at PX.
pancakes?

#53 sir_schwick

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 05:00 PM

If you run around a corner into a Sectoid, both of you have to pull your rifle into ready position. A trained soldier could use the suprise and delay to get inside the maneuverability of the weapon. That advantage could be used to get a better firing angle or grab the weapon.

Basically just stop. Stop posting on this thread so I can stop seeing it in the "latest post" button and I can stop coming in here to prove you wrong.

Seriously, there are more pressing matters here at PX.


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#54 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 26 January 2005 - 06:00 PM

It´s not the strenght... it´s the inner energy, the real power of martial arts.

#55 centurion

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 02:09 AM

Ok, while I don't want to hear the word "chi" in a sci-fi game, holding down a Sectoid doesn't sound like something impossible (while inflicting more damage with a sword than with even a primitive firearm does). This will probably need some extra coding (not to mention the artwork), but it could turn out to be a nice immersing touch (maybe a research on Grey anatomy and behaviour would make those kind of attacks easier? maybe the friends of the held Grey would come in droves to the rescue? maybe you could prevent it with appropriate researched techniques?) that would make capturing live aliens a tad bit easier or at least provide alternatives to the [stun rod] (hit and forget) and the [small launcher] (advanced alien gizmo).
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#56 fux0r666

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 02:25 AM

If the squaddies were using any martial arts at all, it would be a military martial art like combat sambo or krav maga, and it would have nothing to do flying scissor kicks or chi attacks.

Edited by fux0r666, 27 January 2005 - 02:27 AM.


Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#57 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 08:09 AM

1. Oh well, but remember that chi (or ki) is the energy that can make human to damage the enemies vital organs, even if they are heavy armored. Then with psi training to power it, it could become into a devastating force.

Breaking bricks is only the first step. Then is to break waters flow and paper (not so easy, trust me) and finally to break only a determined brick from a pilar of them WITHOUT damagin the others. And that´s the point, by the way that a hit on muton would´nt punch through this skin. The only thing the guy would do is to project his energy inside of muton´s body, affecting the precious vital organs (that i doubt to be so strong). So the sergeant would kill the muton in one hit as in real life happens with the brick.

Edited by Adun_Toridas, 27 January 2005 - 08:19 AM.


#58 Phaze

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 10:54 AM

If you guys really want this, it could b mayb a really wierd mod for X-COM.... some ninja game... :P

#59 centurion

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 11:26 AM

1. Oh well, but remember that chi (or ki) is the energy that can make human to damage the enemies vital organs, even if they are heavy armored. Then with psi training to power it, it could become into a devastating force.

Breaking bricks is only the first step. Then is to break waters flow and paper (not so easy, trust me) and finally to break only a determined brick from a pilar of them WITHOUT damagin the others. And that´s the point, by the way that a hit on muton would´nt punch through this skin. The only thing the guy would do is to project his energy inside of muton´s body, affecting the precious vital organs (that i doubt to be so strong). So the sergeant would kill the muton in one hit as in real life happens with the brick.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't want to start the flames on whether the stuff you talk about is real or not. I'd rather not put anything like that into Xenocide, because for some, this is BS that would ruin an otherwise acceptable game.
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#60 sir_schwick

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 11:34 AM

It would be a good way to caputre aliens, lets go with that angle.

#61 kafros

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 02:07 PM

Come on guys, don't try to justify this feature with realism because you will    LOSE.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


We are not fighting in order to win or lose, we just have a conversation, we provide food for thought! And, if you think that it is useless talking (which you SHOULDN'T, we are i the labs after all), then just close the topic........... :innocent:

Edit: And, I agree that Xenocide needs futuristic stuff! Technology! Hi-tech! But, some stealth and melee fight (optional if you want!) won't hurt anybody...!

Edited by kafros, 27 January 2005 - 02:10 PM.


#62 Tsereve

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 06:22 PM

Well, this "chi" stuff is getting kind of wierd, but again, I side with having some form of martial arts/fist aspect in the game. No further arguments, Your Honor.
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#63 sir_schwick

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 07:41 PM

I think there are three camps in this debate:

1) Superninja, chimaster, kung pao types - I hate to be rude to anyone who falls in this category, but you guys are suggesting changing this game from X-COM to Hong Kong beatdown. That would make a good mod, but does not feel the general game.

On a side note this makes me want to add X-COM characters and aliens as Soul Calibur fighters(they do have weapons). Unfortuantely I have never seen a PC version of Soul Calibur.

2) I hate everybody types. - This group wants to be mean to people and talk about how stupid they are.

3) Some kind of melee option types. - We are the ones that want varying degrees of melee options.

Anyway, I think you should be able to use melee for situations were suprise is to your advantage(corner, from behind) and also be useful for non-lethal takedowns.

#64 tzuchan

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Posted 27 January 2005 - 09:58 PM

I agree that some melee options would be nice(ie, bash with two handed weapons could knock down the target's reaction, simulating a nice real life stunning blow to the head) but asking for martial arts in the game is just too ridiculus. First off, hefting around swords and shurikens is something you just don't see in real life armies. Yes, they have some melee combat training, but that's with bare hands and/or their standard equipment(ie rifles).

As to how to balance the effect of melee combat, and still make it a viable option, how about making the hit/miss dependent on the strength and reactions of both the initating unit and the target, and that the melee attack doesn't reduce hitpoints but reduces reaction and TUs for a turn? Not to mention it could increase the stun meter as well.

As for

Breaking bricks is only the first step. Then is to break waters flow and paper (not so easy, trust me) and finally to break only a determined brick from a pilar of them WITHOUT damagin the others. And that´s the point, by the way that a hit on muton would´nt punch through this skin. The only thing the guy would do is to project his energy inside of muton´s body, affecting the precious vital organs (that i doubt to be so strong). So the sergeant would kill the muton in one hit as in real life happens with the brick.


I have to say, even if it's possible in reallife(and the romantic in me definately hopes so..), it takes a dedicated person to master his/her ki enough to do that. I doubt your average soldier is going to be that skilled, or that a martial artist of that level is going to be in the army fulltime.

Adun, I have to say that you are a fountain of ideas, and that can be good. But you also have to consider the feasiblity of any ideas that you want to incoporate, and if it will really improve the gameplay. Don't suggest adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff...
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#65 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 07:57 AM

I agree that some melee options would be nice(ie, bash with two handed weapons could knock down the target's reaction, simulating a nice real life stunning blow to the head) but asking for martial arts in the game is just too ridiculus. First off, hefting around swords and shurikens is something you just don't see in real life armies. Yes, they have some melee combat training, but that's with bare hands and/or their standard equipment(ie rifles).

As to how to balance the effect of melee combat, and still make it a viable option, how about making the hit/miss dependent on the strength and reactions of both the initating unit and the target, and that the melee attack doesn't reduce hitpoints but reduces reaction and TUs for a turn? Not to mention it could increase the stun meter as well.

As for

Breaking bricks is only the first step. Then is to break waters flow and paper (not so easy, trust me) and finally to break only a determined brick from a pilar of them WITHOUT damagin the others. And that´s the point, by the way that a hit on muton would´nt punch through this skin. The only thing the guy would do is to project his energy inside of muton´s body, affecting the precious vital organs (that i doubt to be so strong). So the sergeant would kill the muton in one hit as in real life happens with the brick.


I have to say, even if it's possible in reallife(and the romantic in me definately hopes so..), it takes a dedicated person to master his/her ki enough to do that. I doubt your average soldier is going to be that skilled, or that a martial artist of that level is going to be in the army fulltime.

Adun, I have to say that you are a fountain of ideas, and that can be good. But you also have to consider the feasiblity of any ideas that you want to incoporate, and if it will really improve the gameplay. Don't suggest adding stuff for the sake of adding stuff...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Well you are right, so i renounce of giving more points about martial arts. All in all, they might be really powerful, but as you said they can not belonge to xcom world :Cry:

#66 Tsereve

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 09:15 PM

Well, at least some El Cabonging with rifle butts.
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#67 sir_schwick

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Posted 28 January 2005 - 10:39 PM

Even though the clubbing will not be quite the same, one of the best parts of Halo was running up to alien while they were turned and clubbing the **** out of them. Nothing like feeling the hard side of a Earth justice.

#68 Blehm 98

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 09:34 AM

Lets see

Sectoid and floater are talking(over radio)

Soldier runs up behind sectoid and slams him in the back of the head
sectoid is then rendered unconscious and soon dies of brain concussion

the floater doesn't here anything, floats in nochalontly, and gets hit in the face by a stabbing rifle bayonett

not only does the floater panic, but also can't see because there is a slash across face and blood flowing downward. Floater then dies to a knife wound or easy shot to the back of the head

see, it could be usefull, but to an extent though. No killing mutons with one hit to the back, but mutons can kill you in one hit to the back(or rip in half, same thing)
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#69 sir_schwick

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 03:43 PM

With power armour I imagine you could get a Muton in one hit, unless they make Mutons as powerful as they should be. In that case Mutons could chop your rifle in half and use you as a body shield.

#70 Tsereve

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 06:33 PM

With power armor, humans and Mutons should be equal at best. Add flying armor, though, and humans are slightly better.
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#71 Blehm 98

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Posted 29 January 2005 - 11:04 PM

I don't think so... because you can only be so strong

a muton should always be stronger than a human, they're bigger, ugglier, meaner, and should be stronger...

sort of like the master chief and a brute. The brute is extremely strong, but the master chief can still kill one if he hits him right. So same here. Flying suit can kill Muton, but only sometimes
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#72 fux0r666

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 05:47 PM

I don't really think that any current fighting style would be appropriate for troops in giant, machine-suiits. I think that xcom would develop a martial art for use in these suits as their experiences with them grew. It would probably draw on multiple disciplines and focus on holds and moves with limited flexibility.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#73 Tsereve

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 07:30 PM

But doesn't Power Armor+ allows full flexability, plus extra strength? I know I read that somewhere.
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#74 Blehm 98

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Posted 30 January 2005 - 10:06 PM

that's from TFTD about the increased strength

look at how bulky power armor is. Now could you do something like run through a small obstacle course with it on? It looks very bulky to me, and bulky means unmaneuverable
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#75 Quantifier

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:23 AM

did you see final movie from psx version?
these power-armoured guys look like their movements are not very restricted by their suits.

idea of power/flying suit is to be exoskeleton that amplifies strength and speed of every move. i didn't train combat sambo or krav maga, but i know they don't require superhuman flexibility like kung-fu or teakwondo do.

melee combat in game would be nice, like: punch, grab, throw, maybe bayonets and knives too, but nothing too fancy and always as last resort. (eg. when soldier runs out of ammo when facing alien, it would be faster to just hit it than pull out another weapon)
power suits would give chance in unarmed fight with big aliens like mutons.

#76 fux0r666

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 10:34 AM

Yeah, I don't think the giant space hands of the xcom suits would really allow for full flexibility.

The current suit for xenocide is slightly better but would, in no way, allow something even resembling a full range of motion.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#77 sir_schwick

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 11:23 AM

This gives me an armour idea: light, medium, and heavy armour.

Light armour actually increases range of motion(assists your motions) increases movement efficiency and jump abilities as well as reactions a ton. Best for stealthy roles and very close range combat.

Medium armour allows about normal range of motion for humans with moderate increase in strength. Has better armour and easier to integrate heavy weapons and grapple bucklers.

Heavy armour reduces range of mtion but increases strength to near Muton levels. You can increase armour, components, or add a flying component. Expect tons of goodies such as chest integrated flame-throwers(for Reapers) or such.

#78 Khai

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 03:05 PM

Yeah I'd say that dividing armor up into three portions is a good idea, but you have to watch for a descent into 'too many pointless options'...the tends to mark the slipperly slope into micromanagement heck.

What makes a game seem even more pointless is when you have options that are pointless to use...as there are better options.

How many people used Plasma Rifles? How many people used Personal armor after 4 months into the game? How many people used the Lightning? I'd much rather have options that are useful, rather than tons of options that aren't.

It sounds like in the case of armor...the heavy one would be the one you would use all the time...lets see, heavy armor...flamethrowers...flying mobility...kitchen sink etc etc. You lose balance in the game when one path isn't as useful as the other.

#79 JakeDrake

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 03:31 PM

nicely put khai, but if the armor discussion is going to be continued please start a new thread.

I had decided to step back and stop being a dick about this whole subject for a while. Just because I would abhore seeing martial arts in xcom doesn't mean I can necessarily put anyone down for suggesting it, so I apologize if I p|$$36 anyone off earlier. When PX is released it will be open source and at that time all of your ideas will be great for a mod Adun.

There is something new here that might work because it could be very easily programmed, easy enough even for V1. That is the ability to use your weapon to perform a melee attack on the enemy. There are a couple possible uses for such an attack: Attempt to capture enemy without outfitting everyone with a [stun rod], to provide an alternative attack when ammo is depleted, and to allow for a sort of "stealth kill" that would cause much less sound then the firing of a gun.

Basically any weapon being held in the hands would allow a new attack called "bash" or "melee" or some such sort, just below or above the "throw" option. "Bash" is very short range (you have to be next to the enemy to have it appear as an option so that it doesnt clutter up the UI) and basically lowers the stun meter of the target by a very variable degree (i.e. it can do almost no stun damage or very rarely knock them out with one hit) and with a chance to hit the same as a [stun rod] attack. The stun damage done relies solely on Strength and possibly on weight of weapon bashed with (though this requires giving each weapon a weight which is unnecessary if it won't be used for some other calculation). Bash attack takes large amounts of TUs so you definitely won't be able to do it more than once in a turn, and if the target by chance actually is knocked out by the bash then there is still a chance of it making a groaning noise that can still alert the enemy of the action (though maybe not to the same degree); therefore the whole bash attack is extremely risky and would not be a viable specialty for a soldier (i.e. i can't really imagine a super basher martial artist being very effective in combat).
This would be very easy to implement because it functions the exact same as a stun rod and the same function could possibly be called for 'stun' and 'bash'.

Does this appease everyone? Bayonets are a whole nother story and are subject to the same arguments as martial arts and ninjas was subject to.

Edited by JakeDrake, 31 January 2005 - 03:37 PM.

pancakes?

#80 sir_schwick

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 04:59 PM

What about using a heavy weapon or rifle as a ram when opening doors? Would suprise the alien and then your rifle would be forward to put holy lead into the aline scum.

Stun bayonets would be useful on rifles.

I assume when you finish an autopsy the effectiveness of stun attacks would increase to a good point(except with hard to stun aliens).

#81 fux0r666

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 07:47 PM

This gives me an armour idea: light, medium, and heavy armour.

Light armour actually increases range of motion(assists your motions) increases movement efficiency and jump abilities as well as reactions a ton.  Best for stealthy roles and very close range combat.


LOL. Assists your flexiblility. Can you imagine a suit of armour that cranks your joints around like chickenbones as it changes every motion you make into a contortionist's sequence? This suit sounds painful.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#82 Tsereve

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Posted 31 January 2005 - 07:53 PM

I think what he means is that the suit will sense your movements, then mimic them on low power. That way, you'll still be making all the movements, but each will take less effort.
Justice will be dispensed by cannonade and cutlass, and all manner of remorseless pieces of metal.

Take one more step, and I swear, I will kill you so hard you will die to death.

#83 Sinscale17

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Posted 07 February 2005 - 10:16 PM

Whilst it is true that ninja do not appear in modern warfare, to say that nothing like them now occurs is false. Ninja held true to what is nowadays conventional warfare - stealth, camouflage, and advanced tactics, the modern day "ninja" equivalent is that of a covert operative in a group such as the SAS, serving greater tactical roles without messing around like a moron with shurikens (which were actually appallingly inaccurate) when a well placed pistol complete with silencer got the job done far more easily.

However, this "niche" of the ninja rather empty in X-Com, and could easily be filled by a stealth camouflage light armour (similar to Schwicks armour caste) and the related tactics it allows - from invisible snipers to small arms/melee "assassin" units for sneaking up and stunning/slaying targets protected from more usual arms fire (or at least cheaper than using a fifteen blaster bomb spread to blast through all cover) - seems more than apt for the X-Com setting, allowing a trade-off on protection for extra suit design, rather than the typical "3 beats 2 beats 1 beats 0" armour system the first two games worked on.

Secondly, I notice much scorn on the notion of "dedicated" melee weapons; When it comes to overall armour penetration, quite right, human muscles aren't the most powerful effectors out there, even the katana - widely accepted to be the most advanced development in melee combat ever invented - cannot reasonably hope to penetrate even basic alien alloys.

However, with the dawning of energy weaponry, so too comes a revolution in hand to hand weapon design, for with almost every form of advanced energy, it is easier to generate the energy at short range in a contained form than to project it at distant targets (hence why a blowtorch is hotter than a flame thrower). As a result, short range energy weaponry will be able to project far a more focused and devastating power-stream than an equivalent-sized projectile weapon.
Let's take the laser for example.
To successfully utilise laser weaponry in the form of the pistol, a power source is needed, refinement and containment to maintain the integrity of the laser over often very long distances, the longer the barrel can be, and larger the "clip" - or power source - the greater the potential focus of, and supply of power, resulting in bigger weapons being more damaging and more accurate.

However, with a short range, self contained system of a laser projecting to a nearby receptor point, the level of refinement can be much, much lower yet still have the same strength beam.
As a result of this, in a close range equivalent of a melee laser weapon to the same "two square" scale as a pistol (basically, a laser version of the popular "army knife" idea), the power supply can occupy not only the "clip", or handle, but also the majority of any blade, which would be shaped in such a way as to accomodate a single "edge" where, upon activation, a single laser stream would be projected from hilt to blade tip.

So, due to the change in power output, a 2 square lasknife, though it lacks range, actually has the equivalent power roughly similar to the laser rifle instead - Just short of seventy.

Extend this concept to a blade the size of the laser rifle, where a stronger beam actually needs MORE, not less, attention on focusing that energy through the barrel, once again a problem far less limitting to the close range laser sword, which can again project a far more focused beam once more.

If we are generous and assume only one third of the laser rifle's construction is on the onerous task of getting its payload from muzzle to target, then the laser sword, with the majority of force dedicated to simply generating and maintaining short bursts of highly concentrated beams, the weapon nears 90 in attack power.

This is a multiple of almost 1.5 per size range. A complete jump A laser "axe" or similarly sized weapon of Heavy laser size, following this formula would feasibly be gifted with a power of 125, though at this size, it starts into the "heavy thermic lance" territory, and slowing down agents trying to get close enough to start swinging. However, this also stands second only to the Launcher, and hasn't even visitted the possibility of plasma weaponry (and probably won't, given the timeline delay before plasma swords come into play).

This brings forth a brand new tactic as well, with the general TU% cost for a single hit ranging from 5%, to 7%, to 9% to keep it roughly in line with TFTD equivalents, do you shoot that Morlock lurking in the alleyway with an autofire Heavy Plasma, or do you fly over the building, drop down behind him and slit his throat with superior sword penetration and still have TUs left over for reaction fire with your "ninja" laser swordsman? What about that arthopod? And while you're at it, why not just a laser bayonet laser rifle? Or skip it entirely whilst you build even bigger guns?

I think there's plenty of room for both stealth kills and really cool sword things in X-Corps, and in the end, isn't that what being a ninja is all about? :D (Ah yes, and if it comes to a ninja mod, you think it would be possibly to change the beserk to "n% is flipping out!"? ^_^)

As usual, feel free to comment on my ever so slightly off kilter ideas.
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#84 sir_schwick

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 12:40 AM

And the aliens could have 'plasma injectors' as well. They work by superheating an edge which reacts with armour and opens a hole. Hot plasma is then dumped directly into the hole and allowed to spread out.

Theorhetically the more combat oriented alien rifles(MuG12A, MuG14A, MuG14B) would have an alternator system that would incorporate the blade into the rifle. Mutons could use their fast reactions to melee whenever they are close enough to do the dance of death(that is when two opponents hop around after getting suprised by the other one).

Other combat troops might have a 'plasma knives' or the such for that discreet kill, along with other gear.

#85 Sinscale17

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 06:24 AM

If you like, I could put up a sketch of how a necessary laser "blade" design would be. The blade would be similar to a fluorescent light holder, (Essentially "[" in shape, with energy transmitted between the two points like the "lightbulb" - no light sabers here.) which would be the minimum for successfully projecting and maintaining an energy beam.
If designed with such a structure then a blade could be incorporated (though this gunblade would not bear all the advantages of a dedicated laser due to the smaller energy source mentioned earlier, but would allow greater accuracy and a slightly stronger beam to be focused as less energy is lost to the environment before striking.

Plasma could theoretically work with the same "[" shape to simply melt through armour and skin with the level of heat involved. However, whether in a dedicated "blade" or gun mode, this would likely require power clips to generate the plasma. Something to note is that a blade would have a larger overall clip that could last several missions, whilst a gun would likely use the same ammo in either form.

Something that might make good use of the properties of plasma is the idea of a plasma torch, basically a plasma "blow torch". Such a thing could probably melt through UFO walls, aiding in construction (a necessity to research before higher technology could be cheaply built), and given the focus, quiet possibly dealing in the realms of a 180 power weapon, something that rivals a Launcher explosion. Such a thing would probably be rather heavy however, but is certainly a possibility.
Morlocks could probably carry it in one hand. :hammer:

What you say does bring up an important matter though. Will Melee be subject to reaction fire a la Apocalypse's (slight cheat, given it's actually just a very short range "gun") sword? And will wielders actually have the nouse to actually move towards the enemy to facilitate this?

Also importantly, will these blades be able to destroy terrain, or restricted to the living, like the vibroblade? A supply of easy path clearing devices in the form of "swords" would help tank squads and scouts to no end, and the idea of guarding the door to an alien base when an alien melts through the wall behind you.... Great stuff.
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#86 tzuchan

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:47 AM

Hmm... Having watched several anime which showed a energy "blade" design much like sinscale17's, I have to agree that this sounds interesting, and is a viable tech. But for plasma only, I suspect. Lasers don't work quite well in this idea because laser beams are that, beams, and when the path of the beam is blocked by something, it has to burn it's way through in order to "cut" a path through, hence a moving blade would, I think, burn a trench(nad that means not entirely through) in the side of an object intersecting it. Plasma, however, can be contained using a strong magnetic field, and hence, could theoritically be projected and contained between two prongs such as sinscale17 suggested.

Also, as long as the design includes the two prongs, the "plasma blade" can't be used to drill holes through walls or anything like that... Unlike the thermic lances, which looked like they'd be able to drill holes through walls(and boy, was I disappointed when I learned that they can't...)
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#87 count_penta

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:48 AM

I guess we allready have melee weapons in the game. We have the [vibro blade] and the [stun rod]. We could put in more of them (laser/plasma sword) and we could then have a new stat called "melee". However.. what's it supposed to do? Make you hit more often? Melee allready hits every time. I don't suppose you want your attacks to cause more damage because you don't really "strike" with those weapons.. you just sorta touch it to their hide and let the laser/plasma/stunner do its thing.

A stunner attachment to a rifle would be nice though. And I REALLY would like to see a plasma blowtorch to get into UFOs from the back.

PS.: maybe there IS a use for a bash attack if you could use it on allready unconcious aliens to make SURE they stay that way.

#88 tzuchan

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:58 AM

in responces to coount penta:
There isn't a need for a new stat, less is better in the case of data we will be throwing at the user.

Besides, in a melee fight, what counts is agility(reaction) and strength. The way I'd program it would be that melee hit prob is calculated as a function of reaction of both the attacker and target, with modifiers for direction from which the attacker is striking (100% reaction for defender if from front, 50% if from sides, 25% if from back if attacker enters LOS when approaching, 5-10% is attacker is not seen when approaching back) and that damage done is a function of weapon type and attacker strength. I'd also suggest that unless weapons capable of penetrating alien armor/tough skin is developed, melee attacks only increase stun meter and lowers reaction for a period of time.
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#89 Serge

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 12:10 PM

I wonder how many of you guys suggesting to add martial arts to the game have actually taken some martial arts training in the real life? ;) Those movies about ninjas and super fighters are sometimes fun to watch, but most of them are very unrealistic and very stupid, especially american movies. I would not like to see ninjas in xenocide, some hand-to-hand attacks would be ok though :)
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#90 Sinscale17

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 09:03 PM

The thesis behind a laser blade would be the combination of a super heated edge (the flat length of the "[" would be sharp, rather than blunt), combined with the initial high speed sublimation of solids via super heating with the laser beam.
Also, is this really how laser tech in UFO worked? Lasers projected a beam of energy, rather than a solid length from gun to target. It may not be simply "light" rather than some other type of projected energy.

With this, initial penetration through armour and subsequent "incision" would be assisted by the primary laser beam, which would then continue to burn just ahead of the sharp edge, softening and cooking tissues to facilitate easier cutting (and extraction). You'd still have to swing for momentum of course, since it's still bound by the principles of any blade, but you wouldn't be applying only human strength to penetration.
As a possible, would one laser from each point of the "[" meeting in the middle be an improvement on its design? The focal point would be extremely hot though.


One point I'd like to mention, is that very rarely can you count on any melee weapon to cut straight through something as thick as a human torso unless you seriously swing with all your might and are lucky enough to miss most of the bones.
However, given the construction of most, if not all bipeds, you stand a very good chance of a fatal blow even if you only enter by three inches from any direction, what with the central nervous system and all that. Not every weapon needs to perform a coup de grace every strike to be a viable killing device.

You are right however, that this blade construction would not be useful when it came to wall demolition. You'd have to lay it flat against the surface and hold it there if a corner or hole wasn't already available, not the most efficient method in the world, hence the need for the "blowtorch" on things like UFOs and the like.
Unlike walls however, things like trees, hedges and fences would be easy to cut up and kick aside/down with these blades, if not just set on fire on contact.


If melee attacks were to be commonplace in Xenocide, I'd actually have to agree with count_penta on the necessity of a melee accuracy. You can be the strongest and most in the entire world, but it doesn't mean diddly if you can't actually hit.

Equally, with the "reactions/strength", many of the energy based weapons actually render strength irrelevant, and having to calculate manually by checking two stats is something I would find more onerous than simply checking a rookie and being able to see straight off whether he was worth kitting out with a laser sword or just a regular old combat knife, without having to check off against two different stats to find out. It makes otherwise useless 40 accuracy soldiers have another chance at being worthwhile, even if it's just as close combat scouts. This allows more in the way of

Lastly, people can't apply their reactions to dodging bullets, they shouldn't apply it to dodging punches either, it doesn't really seem X-Com if you can end your turn next to a Chrysalid without risk, just because your guy has 100 reactions. If a reaction can involve the target actually running to cover (á la apocalypse), then that should be the way all "dodging" is handled. Reactions already has the game use of allowing retaliation to melee attacks, don't make it even more powerful by giving it another.

Close combat could actually serve as the balancer of melee however. I always though it a little odd that you could shoot at point blank range and STILL miss with a gun, but never with that little stun rod. An overall unmodified accuracy, not improved by kneeling (possibly even worsened by kneeling, that'd be a great blow to the "everybody kneels at end of turn" bunch).
Most melee weapons would allow unmodified stat to be used, fist would allow a +10% bonus, something unwieldy like a stun rod or a heavy laser axe (which would be both two handed as well for further accuracy penalties) would have a -5% penalty or so. It would make choosing melee weapons more than just a case of "which deals the most damage" just like the game does with all other weapons.

And I didn't know the vibro blade was in Xenocide. Huh. Time to plot my army of drillers taking out Thanatos. :spank:

Edit: I can't believe I still can't post. -_- But, just for fun, here's a series of X-Com style melee weapons and their equivalent ranged weapon I made whilst I was taking a break from concept work. I won't insult you by saying which is which.

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Edited by Sinscale17, 09 February 2005 - 07:51 AM.

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#91 T-1

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 12:58 PM

You could make a combination of a conventional blade and a [ blade by making the | part of the [ sharpened like a sword so you burn them with the laser then cut through them with an alien-alloys vibroblade.

#92 sir_schwick

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 01:16 PM

That would be most efficient because then intermolecular forces between the heated molecules on the surface you are cutting are easier to get through.

#93 Sinscale17

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 01:31 PM

I said that. *Points.*
"The flat length of the "[" would be sharp, rather than blunt."

Without the vibroblade part though....
Have the general laser sword with an alien alloy chainsaw blade running along the length. :master: Now there's a plan! :chainsaw:
Superheated chainsaw blade combined with a laser beam for initial penetration.
If this carried through to the opposite side of the blade, then the edge without laser emitters could actually be used to cut through walls as well, simply using the heated teeth as they passed the laser.

It would require alien alloys research though, the blade and teeth would swiftly melt with standard materials.

New tech tree: Laser Weapons + Alien Alloys > Close quarters warfare?

Wow, good plan T-1. ^_^
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#94 sir_schwick

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Posted 13 February 2005 - 06:56 PM

The Advanced Viser Blade(VIbrating laSER) could use a mini-Xenium accelerator to push through the target with greater force than any biological entity.

Requires Plasma weapon research along with Close Quarters Warfare.

#95 T-1

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 04:53 PM

what about an electrified blade? This way you can burn, cut, and electrocute your target.

#96 sir_schwick

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 08:00 PM

I don't know of many, if any devices that use electricity in that manner currently. Electrocution weapons are usually for stun purposes. Someone more knowledgeable can explain the downfalls of this.

#97 Sinscale17

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 08:52 AM

The number one reason I'd consider to be the actual getting the shock to the target.

Typical warfare research is primarily about what's easiest to make, compared to the end result, as well as "what's already been researched". Sonic resonance devices can potentially shatter, break and liquify anything at the right frequency, but it hasn't been researched to anything like that level of advancement because bullets and explosives saturate modern warfare.

Factors as to why electrical weapons are not viable lethal weapons however, include reliability, duration, power source, circuitry, and efficiency.

Reliability: Shooting someone in the head is usually guaranteed unless you're commander Tommy, whilst an electrical shock is far from it - people have survived being struck by lightning, people have survived getting caught by mains electricity, and people have even survived the electric chair on occassion - but people have been reported to have died from licking a nine volt battery.

How? Nobody is really positive (Heh heh) how electricity kills people (unlike its rather more obvious effect on electrical devices). Most think it's cardiac arrest, but in some cases, the victim actually fries to death before they die, if at all.

Something that IS general knowledge is that the nervous system is electrical. Interfering with low danger stun guns and tasers to cause unconsciousness is a clear non-lethal method of disabling people, lethal electrical discharge simply lacks the "certainty" aspect available to t-wave technology.

Duration: It takes one minute on, ten seconds off to kill with the electric chair - though not always successfully. 2640 volts for a 70 kilo man, this could easily be higher for something as large as, say, a [Reaper], and if it fails to render an enemy unconscious in the first few seconds, they're fully capable of retaliating.

Power source: Think of the necessary size for an electrical generator. A car battery has the overall output of 12 volts, a decent current, and a decent lifespan, and even that would run low pretty quick if you leave the lights on overnight. A weapon which would produce the relevant voltage, amps et al, even to mildly cook a target would need something rather.... sizeable, shall we say.

Earthing: Something people usually overlook - electricity needs a current, and without it, you can't actually do anything. If you poke someone wearing rubber shoes with an electro-knife, then the electrical aspect would be utterly useless, the knife blade would not magically electrify them, because there would be no circuit, hence why tasers need two "prongs". Flesh is not actually the best conductor either, so even an earthed target would need a hefty dose, and no other circuit available through a shorter distance, or lower resistance substance.
Note also, that "shorting" would be a concern here.

Efficiency: When say, two-thousand volts could be used to power an electro-magnetic rail gun, it's obviously more useful than simply wasting those same twelve-thousand volts into someone. Combined with the inherent unreliability of electrical warfare, and you have something that ultimately is not worth researching, constructing, or using.


Hope that clears up some of the downfalls in electrical warfare.

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#98 T-1

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 04:06 PM

That little amount of shock could be the deciding factor in battle. And since there is a ] shape to the blade, you have two prongs. Now, if you can think of anything else to use that extra power for other than the laser, the electricity will certainly help.

#99 Sinscale17

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 04:07 AM

Two prongs that are required to be on either side of the target actually. The necessity for a L.E. Blade is to use the laser as primary incision making agent, not touch the emitters to them - you'd lose out on the primary offensive measure to use an inferior replacement.
If there's something large enough that you can't get between the Laser emitters, such as a wall, then it would be more damaging to simply strike with the reverse edge - a superheated chainsaw is still more deadly than an electrical surge, both burn the target, one just tears it as well.

The other inhibitive aspect would be the new drain on power - electricity, as mentioned, would require a large battery, producing a large, unrefined surge of energy to have more than say... a static shock effect would require a substantial part of the power supply on the example models, and would suddenly introduce an urgent need for insulation, lest the wielder kill themselves by brushing the hilt.

Whilst some weapons might lend themselves to an electrical weapon addition in some way, a second long shock is far less important in a laser weapon of this design compared to the dual trauma of an L.E. blade's slash and burn.

An electro sword would require a completely different design, potentially a large battery pack, and a standard blade, with spring loaded needles along the edge. On impact, the needles that struck would be caught in the body of the target, and then high voltage AC current released internally.

If a major organ, such as the heart or brain were impacted directly by such emitters, heart death, or swift brain death would be a strong possibility - assuming a standard alien's carbon-based biology is comparable to that of a human at least.
This would be a potentially useful lethal weapon, but whether it would be scientifically viable is another matter.
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#100 Adun_Toridas

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:13 AM

what about an electrified blade? This way you can burn, cut, and electrocute your target.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Mmmm why not giving the stunt rods and option to stab the enemy?