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Missile Warheads And Possible New Texts


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#1 Astyanax

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 04:45 PM

Hey guys-

I'm currently proofreading the rocket launcher CT, and I'd like to propose making all missile systems use "amorphous tungsten" tips as detailed in Dan2's version of the missile defense facility CT. In that text, Dan2 asserts that uranium warheads were banned after the Gulf Reformation Wars due to ecological concerns. I'd like to establish his reasoning as canon and change the relevant CTs to reflect the alteration.

These are the texts that would be affected:
Rocket Launcher
Sidewinder Light Missile
Titan Heavy Missile
Autocannon


The current Pistol, Light Rifle, and Heavy Cannon CTs don't mention uranium/tungsten, but future versions would also be affected by my proposition.

By the way, do you think we'll need Pistol Clip, Light Rifle Clip, and Heavy Cannon Clip texts? :naughty: If not, we should mention the clips in their respective weapon CTs.

This is for consistency and simplification purposes. To my chagrin, the toughest part about proofreading is ensuring consistency! :P Opinions?

Perhaps there might also be room for a new X-net CT available from the start: Missile Weapons Systems. This CT would describe the parts of a functional missile system (propulsion, explosive charge, the tip, the launcher), a bit of the history and evolution of the weapons' design, the differences between soldier and craft versions, and possible targeting systems.

Edited by Astyanax, 14 March 2005 - 04:57 PM.

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#2 dan2

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 04:59 PM

Your plan is ambitious, to bring order in the chaos, but I wonder how much time do we still have till the texts must be finished?
I'd love to see coherent texts, but is it possible in such a heterogenous team?

#3 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:00 PM

I don't see the point in doing so. Really, honestly, who will know (or care about) the difference between an "amorphous tungsten" warhead and an uranium one? Also, we have already introduced enough new texts, but have finished few, we should talk about new texts when we actually complete a good amount of the active ones.
About merging the clips texts with their correspondant weapon, that doesn't sound like a bad idea, but only for the standard weapons of course, plasmas will still have to have separate texts.

#4 Astyanax

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:01 PM

It's not that big a change, imho. Just change uranium/tungsten to amorphous tungsten. :P

And if the Missile Weapons Systems CT gets okayed, then the amorphous tungsten/ban of uranium explanations can be put in there, too.

In an odd way, this is very similar to the way the C++ progamming language works... Classes inheriting things from larger classes... Ok, I'm going on a tangent.

Edit- You're probably right about the your new texts point, Az.

In that case, the Missile Defense Facility CT should remove the lines regarding the banning of uranium to prevent inconsistencies between texts.

Edited by Astyanax, 14 March 2005 - 05:17 PM.

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#5 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:09 PM

missile weapons systems??, never heard of that, you mean Missile Defense Facility?

#6 Astyanax

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:12 PM

You're right. *fixes mistake* :P

Anyway, while I have everyone's attention, is it plausible that a rocket launcher be a scaled down version of an aircraft missile (the Titan missile)? I don't have the background to accurately comment on it.

Edited by Astyanax, 14 March 2005 - 05:16 PM.

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#7 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:15 PM

I'd say "no", that sounds a little exaggerated.

#8 Astyanax

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:20 PM

Ah, the vagaries of proofreading. Time to make some changes to the rocket launcher text. :unsure:
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#9 dan2

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 05:44 PM

In that case, the Missile Defense Facility CT should remove the lines regarding the banning of uranium to prevent inconsistencies between texts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Are you sure, you want me to remove that part of the text?

P.S. Just in case, a link to it:
http://www.xcomufo.c...ndpost&p=112214

Edited by dan2, 14 March 2005 - 07:00 PM.


#10 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 06:41 PM

Ah, the vagaries of proofreading.  Time to make some changes to the rocket launcher text. :unsure:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean that's already on the text?, in that case leave it. I thought you wanted to change it.

#11 Penta

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Posted 14 March 2005 - 08:00 PM

It's a bad idea. Take it out now, IMHO.

Why?

1. It's not Uranium that's used in weapons, it's Depleted Uranium. Big difference.

2. We've been doing lots and lots of research since 1991, and the research is profoundly mixed on the health/environmental impact of DU. You have to either ingest it (eat it) or inhale it (breathe it in) to get sick by it. Lots like with asbestos, if you go crawling all over it, you're gonna get sick. If not, you're fine. (At least that's what I recall the research saying...)

3. It's a very, very political issue, that mixes in with lots of other issues. Gaming should STAY AWAY from politics.

4. Amorphous tungsten? That makes no sense. WTF is Amorphous Tungsten?

#12 Penta

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 06:06 AM

Oh, that said, having looked at the current pistol CT...

FYI, DU would never be used in anything smaller than craft/XCAP weapons, and never in personal weapons. Why? For all its battlefield excellence, it is *heavy*.

#13 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 06:40 AM

It's a bad idea. Take it out now, IMHO.

Why?

1. It's not Uranium that's used in weapons, it's Depleted Uranium. Big difference.

Then we only have to add a single word.

3. It's a very, very political issue, that mixes in with lots of other issues. Gaming should STAY AWAY from politics.

I don't see how this is political.

#14 Moriarty

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 06:47 AM

there are heated discussions about whether or not the uranium traces given off by DUP (depleted uranium pellet) weapons cause cancer, gulf war syndrome, and other stuff like that. a lot of people want to ban the use completely, but many want to keep it because it is cheap and efficient. I probably didn't cover all viewpoints, as I said, it is heatedly discussed. perhaps we truly should look for an alternative.

so I guess I'll have to agree, DUP should probably be left out.

amorphous tungsten... well, I don't know if that exists, but it sounds reasonably "science fiction" to me :P actually, any kind of "exotic" material would do. tungsten is known to be something that makes super-hard alloys; amorphous stuff is hard-to-break because it is not a crystal. if it does not exist, who cares, perhaps someone will find a way to manufacture it in 5 or 10 years. why not keep it?
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#15 kafros

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 09:22 AM

1. It's not Uranium that's used in weapons, it's Depleted Uranium. Big difference.

Indeed, some people may think it is a silly difference. An example:
Would you ever say that ice is EXACTLY what water is? No!
You think it's silly? Then read this!

The misnamed 'Depleted' Uranium is left after enriched uranium is separated from natural uranium in order to produce fuel for nuclear reactors. During this process, the fissionable isotope Uranium 235 is separated from uranium.  The remaining uranium, which is 99.8% uranium 238 is misleadingly called 'depleted uranium'.  While the term 'depleted' implies it isn't particularly dangerous, in fact, this waste product of the nuclear industry is 'conveniently' disposed of by producing deadly weapons.

Depleted uranium is chemically toxic.  It is an extremely dense, hard metal, and can cause chemical poisoning to the body in the same way as can lead or any other heavy metal. However, depleted uranium is also radiologically hazardous, as it spontaneously burns on impact, creating tiny aerosolised glass particles which are small enough to be inhaled.  These uranium oxide particles emit all types of radiation, alpha, beta and gamma, and can be carried in the air over long distances. Depleted uranium has a half life of 4.5 billion years, and the presence of depleted uranium ceramic aerosols can pose a long term threat to human health and the environment.


http://www.cadu.org.uk/

3. It's a very, very political issue, that mixes in with lots of other issues. Gaming should STAY AWAY from politics.

It may not be stricly political, but: Politicians love it, Soldiers hate it. Military factors (generals) WANT IT! (as UNCLE SAM WANTS YOU!), but health care factors and ecologists want to BAN IT GLOBALLY. Pick and choose sides. Personally, I want it banned. War and military technology are only nice only in gaming, war simulators etc... :(

4. Amorphous tungsten? That makes no sense. WTF is Amorphous Tungsten?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:WTF: :WTF: :WTF: :WTF: :WTF: :WTF: :WTF:
If you provide some IN-DEPTH information about it, no problem. But, don't just talk about that doesn't exist! Then, why not talk about "gunions" (particles)??? :P :P :P

For all its battlefield excellence, it is *heavy*.

The standard auto-rifle in Unreal II is a gun with depleted uranium shells. But, it is "Unreal" anyway :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Don't forget: New materials pop-out, even if we don't get informed about it. New production methods! More durability with less material! Etc etc etc...

#16 dan2

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 10:49 AM

1. It's not Uranium that's used in weapons, it's Depleted Uranium. Big difference.
2. We've been doing lots and lots of research since 1991, and the research is profoundly mixed on the health/environmental impact of DU. You have to either ingest it (eat it) or inhale it (breathe it in) to get sick by it. Lots like with asbestos, if you go crawling all over it, you're gonna get sick. If not, you're fine. (At least that's what I recall the research saying...)
3. It's a very, very political issue, that mixes in with lots of other issues. Gaming should STAY AWAY from politics.
4. Amorphous tungsten? That makes no sense. WTF is Amorphous Tungsten?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1+2: Well, it's poisoning the environment with something having a halflife of 4.5 billion years. It's not very radioactive, but higher than the normal background radiation. It's like saying: "Yeah, who cares the Chernobil power plant exploded, it's not that much radioactivity for Europe anyway". Yes, it's not, but I hate increasing my chances of getting cancer just because some general want a material twice as heavy as lead for projectiles.
3: It's not political, it's mentioned they used it in TFTD, so I looked for a substitute
4. It does exist, it's made through rapid cooling. I saw once on "Discovery" how amorphous iron is made: they have a big ceramic wheel spinning very fast and on top of it a container with molten iron. When they started the wheel, molten iron fell on the wheel which was sending it continously ahead. The ceramic wheel and the air were absorbing heat much faster than crystallization of iron occurs, so they got about 1000 meters of amorphous iron band. It disolved much slower in acids, it wasn't rusting as usual.
Here are some articles (good old Google, still works):
http://www.ncbi.nlm....7&dopt=Abstract
http://www.mindfully...lloy30jul03.htm

#17 Astyanax

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 01:28 PM

Whoa, I hadn't intended to spark a debate of this intensity when I started this thread. I would like to point out that this isn't really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things- it basically amounts to at most a few lines in a handful of texts, and considering that we have a friggin' bunch of them... well, you get the idea. :)

Azrael: No worries, I was concerned about its plausibility, but I can work with the scaled-down missile system idea.

Penta: Adding "depleted" isn't too big a deal, imho; it's a minor fix. While it's true that there are many concerns about the health and environmental hazards depleted uranium poses, we cannot deny the fact that it is still being used today.

Everyone: That being said, I could go either way on the "material of choice" in Xenocide. Depleted uranium could work because it is a realistic approach (also, DUP heads were used in TFTD, and since there was not the furor that we're having now, I feel it's largely a non-issue), or a plausible new material that operates in a similar manner could be used (we are the Creative Text Department, so we can take some creative licenses :P).

However, why do we have to choose one or the other? As long as Dan2's Missile Defense Facility doesn't say depleted uranium was banned, amorphous tungsten and depleted uranium can both be used.

*shameless plug for the new Missile Weapons Systems CT*

In fact, it might be kind of neat if the world was undergoing a transition from depleted uranium to amorphous tungsten (and addressed fully in a new Missile Weapons Systems CT :naughty: ), maybe something along the lines of: "Amorphous tungsten technology was developed to address the health and environmental concerns associated with depleted uranium. While amorphous tungsten has largely supplanted depleted uranium, several prominent weapons manufacturers have chosen only to incorporate amorphous tungsten into their future designs. As a result, depleted uranium warheads and rounds are still available in the global weapons market."

By the way, Penta makes a good point- depleted uranium/amorphous tungsten are heavy (though elemental tungsten weighs less than uranium), and I'm inclined to believe his assertion that DU/AT would only be used in XCAPS or craft weapons, and perhaps the rocket launcher as well.

Edited by Astyanax, 15 March 2005 - 02:57 PM.

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#18 mikker

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 02:39 PM

what about,

"Also, due to the global banning on uranium, the source of the DOP warheads are broken, and those on the market now have sky-high prices. Although there is enough depleted uranium on the market to supply the needs of the x-corps, the fact that the new amorphous tungsten are much cheaper, and that they can be almost as good as depleted uranium, it wasn't a hard decission which to use. Amorphous tungsten is overall a better choice."

?

Edited by mikker, 15 March 2005 - 02:42 PM.

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#19 kafros

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 02:45 PM

Much better Asty :)

Hey dan, why should we look for a substitute? DU is widely used, no1 can take copyrights about it :P :P :P :P :P BUAHAHAHA :P ATARI S * * |< Z

Amorphous tungsten sounds CT-cool, indeed... But I think we should add more information to make it sound more rational and scientific, certainly not as simple as mikker posted. Mikker's is perfect for 1st draft, and if we make it up a bit (as Asty did), then we will end up with a wonderful solution :hmmm: :)

We could use Amorphous tungsten for Infantry weaponry and DU for XCAPs... :hmmm:

CTD rulez :whip: :pink:

#20 dan2

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 02:54 PM

Hey dan, why should we look for a substitute? DU is widely used, no1 can take copyrights about it :P :P :P :P :P BUAHAHAHA :P ATARI S * * |< Z

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's published about it in scientific journals, it cannot be copywrited. It's not a trademark or something like that, it's a metal that was prepared in a special way. I think it can be called even simply tungsten, if the amorphous explanation is given later in the text.

#21 dipstick

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Posted 15 March 2005 - 03:08 PM

Please would someone PM me with a summary of what is to be decided here, and Astyanax, Azrael and I will make a decision.

I am closing this thread, because it seems to be self-perpetuating, with no end in sight.
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