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Ufo2000 Weapon Concepts Discussion


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#251 ShellTox

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 06:33 AM

Hi everybody B)

I remembered this just now and i think it makes very sense to add to the weapons arsenal in UFO.

A tactical shield could be carried to battle by a soldier. It would increase its front armour a lot and be almoust invulnerable to standard bullet weapons. This increase in armour would be balanced by a really heavy and bulky shield. The real tactical shields can weigh up to 30 kg.

Give your opinions about this

cya ;)

#252 Exo2000

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 06:58 AM

This would require coding to add items that add armour. :P

I'll ask Judeau about it. (We talk on MSN regularly, y'see) He might be able to do something about it.
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#253 Judeau

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 10:07 AM

right right, i'll try to code in some of the ideas here
i'll post again with results later on
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#254 Hobbes

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 10:59 AM

Hi everybody  B)

I remembered this just now and i think it makes very sense to add to the weapons arsenal in UFO.

A tactical shield could be carried to battle by a soldier. It would increase its front armour a lot and be almoust invulnerable to standard bullet weapons. This increase in armour would be balanced by a really heavy and bulky shield. The real tactical shields can weigh up to 30 kg.

Give your opinions about this

cya  ;)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Like a riot control shield? In that case the soldier would have problems firing his rifle since one of his arms would be occupied and he would have to put his weapon over the shield to clear it in order to fire.

#255 Sporb

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 01:23 PM

Counter strike, Pistol in one hand, Sheild in the other

#256 CopyBass

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 03:59 PM

God no. Shield whores! :P

Well, I think it'd be a good item... It'd need to be made so that only one can be held.... and It could make for really ticked off players LOL
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#257 Exo2000

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 11:24 PM

Or just make the shield VERY heavy (20-30 pts) so that you can only hold it and a pistol. :P
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#258 deanfrz

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 12:22 AM

Or just make the shield VERY heavy (20-30 pts) so that you can only hold it and a pistol. :P

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Or perhapse a small submachine gun? You gotta give um a little bit of heat!

Hmmm... Maybe a small (4 shot) grenade launcher? Small grenades, but 4 of them! You could pepper people. It would be great. I mean, UFO2k isnt a riot is it? Its a war, and you have to bring a heater.

Sorry, that was my smoke and think about guns for the hour. Its a good idea though.

#259 Exo2000

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 03:57 AM

There's already a 40mm breach-loading grenade launcher. :P
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#260 Kratos

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 07:10 AM

I am alright with shields as long as they weigh 20 or more.

Edited by Kratos, 15 February 2006 - 07:11 AM.

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#261 Exo2000

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 07:36 AM

Take in mind that the Shields will not make you invulnerable to damage from that angle, only boost your armour and make it slightly harder to hurt you. :wink1:
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#262 CopyBass

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 07:53 AM

Tell that to the people I pissed off with my 30 kills and no deaths with a shield in CS
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#263 ShellTox

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 12:51 PM

Well to balance the sides a little bit more, the line of sight of the shield carrier should be decreased cause itīs not the same thing with empty hands or a large shield in front of you.

If Judeau can create some king of code for adding armour, maybe he can another code to decrese the line of sight

About the weapons allowed, or the shield is very heavy and the carrier can only use a pistol, or the two hand weapons feature is implemented and the carrier can't use weapons at all.

#264 Sporb

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Posted 15 February 2006 - 10:56 PM

my suggestion - The shield forces LOS of the soldier to a very small forward view with little or no periferal vision. A riot shield usually has a vision slot right? (does in CSCZ and that 100% true to life. YES IT IS ... NO I CANT HEAR YOU!!! DOO DEE DOO DEE DOO!!!) That way a soldier with a sheild cant be used to scout as effectively as a unit with a full LOS.

#265 Exo2000

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 12:46 AM

Some riot shields are semi transparent. ;)
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#266 Sporb

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 03:20 AM

im not sure about the riot sheilds made out of plexiglass but im fairly confident they are made to stop larger slower projectiles like rocks and bottles. Not sure if one would stand up to a bullet. Anyhoo, if this idea comes to fruition and your lookin for some sprites, im your man.

#267 Judeau

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 07:55 AM

im not sure about the riot sheilds made out of plexiglass but im fairly confident they are made to stop larger slower projectiles like rocks and bottles. Not sure if one would stand up to a bullet. Anyhoo, if this idea comes to fruition and your lookin for some sprites, im your man.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


only real problem i see is LOS
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#268 ShellTox

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Posted 16 February 2006 - 08:06 AM

Riot Shields and Tactical Shields are two diferent types of protection. As Sporb said, the riot shields are used against "non-letal" low velocity projectiles, and aren't bulletproof. These shiels are very light.

The tactical shield is mainly used in SWAT or urban operations. Itīs bulletproof up to level IV.

Here are the levels of body armour vests:

Level I:
Tested for: .38 Special at 850 fps
Comment: NOT RECOMMENDED
Early generation ballistic fibers, though bulkier, only stop fragmentation and low velocity pistol ammunition.


Level II-A: (16 layers of kevlar)
Tested for: 9 mm FMJ at ~1,090 fps / .357 Magnum JSP at ~1,250 fps
Comment: Minimum Recommended...
...for the vast majority of threats encountered on the street, though you would sustain more blunt trauma injury than Level II or III-A. The thinnest and best for concealability and comfort.


Level II: (22 layers of kevlar)
Tested for: 9 mm FMJ, at ~1,175 fps / 357 JSP at ~ 1,395 fps
Comment: A great balance...
...between blunt trauma protection, versus cost, and thickness / comfort / concealability. Handles the blunt trauma of higher velocity +P rounds better.


Level III-A: (30 layers of kevlar)
Tested for: 9 mm FMJ at ~1,400 fps / .44 Magnum at ~1,400 fps
Comment: 1,400 fps is to cover the velocity of 9 mm FMJ from a submachine gun.
The highest blunt trauma protection rating in soft body armor. The best for very high-risk situations to cover more of the uncommon or unusual threats.
Minimizes blunt trauma injury to allow more effective return fire.

***** Rifle Plate Protection Levels

Level III:
Tested for: .308 Winchester Full Metal Jacket = 7.62 X 51 mm NATO / 6 rounds at ~ 2,750 fps
Comment: ~1/4" Ballistic Steel (6 mm) / ~1/2" Ceramic (13 mm) / ~1" Polyethylene (25 mm)


Level IV:
Tested for: .3006 Armor-Piercing / .30 M2 AP / One round at ~ 2,850 fps
Comment: The highest rating for Body Armor.
~ 3/4" Ceramic (18 mm) / ~1/2" Ballistic Steel (12 mm)


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Level IV Ceramic Rifle Plates
Shot from ~25 Yards (~23m) with:
.3006 Armor Piercing • .223 SS-109 • 7.62 X 39 mm FMJ
Front
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Back
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Edited by ShellTox, 16 February 2006 - 08:08 AM.


#269 Blehm 98

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 09:35 PM

I like the idea of a shield, but it'd have to have some things done

1) yes, it would be very heavy, so 20 works fine
2) Regardless of whether or not it stops the bullet, you still get all the force transfered from the bullet to your arm, so it would be painful and probably numb your arm everytime you get shot. You would need some sort of penalty for every time you're hit, to make sure that you aren't shooting precision shots after being shot at by a full clip of bullets.
edit -
note: the level IV shie4lds are meant to be used to block bullets only, and any intelligent soldier or swat member would drop it the moment they need to start shooting

Edited by Blehm 98, 17 February 2006 - 09:36 PM.

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#270 Exo2000

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 12:23 AM

Good news from Judeau - he's getting there. Slowly, but getting there.

1) This is why I suggested 20-30.
2) Take in mind there is no recoil in XC2k, Blehm. If there was, autoshots would be a lot less useful. It doesn't have to be entirely realistic, y'know.
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#271 Sporb

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 03:28 AM

for those of you itching to get a hold of the newest UFO2000 weapon set complete with Fixes and some extra cool effects (thanks to Nachtwolf) can get it here: Mantis

be sure to remove the old version completely or risk problems

#272 Blehm 98

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 08:45 AM

sorry, i don't know if i said this correctly, but the Tactical shields that are class III are the ones with vision slots and IV have none. Just pointing that out
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#273 Blood Angel

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 09:24 AM

I don't like the whole idea of having shields. Do you see real soldiers carrying shields? Not since about 700 years ago.

Of course, if we were going to do a fantasy mod...

Edited by Blood Angel, 18 February 2006 - 09:24 AM.


#274 Kratos

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Posted 18 February 2006 - 10:43 AM

You are absolutely right BloodAngel. Shields should exclusively be provided as a fantasy mod. We have enough features to confuse the average xcom player, no need to increase the confusion.
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#275 Exo2000

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:22 AM

I don't like the whole idea of having shields. Do you see real soldiers carrying shields? Not since about 700 years ago.

Of course, if we were going to do a fantasy mod...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Then you've obviously never seen a movie with any SWAT guys in it. Or any recordings OF BLOODY RIOTS! Soldiers there are, invariably, almost always using Riot or Tactical Shields. <_< Walls of soldiers holding up Riot Shields can be a pretty common sight in recordings of riots.

You are absolutely right BloodAngel. Shields should exclusively be provided as a fantasy mod. We have enough features to confuse the average xcom player, no need to increase the confusion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I hate to break it to you, Kratos, but given the already-high complexity of X-COM, I doubt that a concept like Riot Shields will be hard to understand. Have more faith in the players.

And most of all, give it a test run before you bin the idea completely. Test it, and see what bugs there are with it by getting it out of the conceptual stage and into the game. If there's a massively game-breaking flaw, then don't use it. If there isn't, well, there isn't.
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#276 Sporb

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 02:54 AM

Conclusion: Swat and riot police use sheilds. Soldiers dont.

Since Xcom's weapons set is indicative of standard army equipment i think it's safe to assume that Xcom units can be called soldiers.

However, we now have a multitude of non standard weapons in the ufo2k set that a normal army wouldnt equip their men with. Thus i dont personally see the problem with adding a new weaponset with a sheild. If you want it in ufo2k set then no, It just wont fit in both concept and size but if a set were devised similar to a swat team's equipment ...

And remeber, we can never have enough weaponset LUA features. Every feature added adds extra depth to the game that can be combned to make ultra depth.

Edited by Sporb, 19 February 2006 - 02:56 AM.


#277 Exo2000

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 03:05 AM

Conclusion: Swat and riot police use sheilds. Soldiers dont.

Since Xcom's weapons set is indicative of standard army equipment i think it's safe to assume that Xcom units can be called soldiers.


X-COM Soldiers are supposedly taken from the best of each organisation, Law Enforcement, Military, SWAT, CT, etc. so yes. I worded that previous bit badly.

However, we now have a multitude of non standard weapons in the ufo2k set that a normal army wouldnt equip their men with. Thus i dont personally see the problem with adding a new weaponset with a sheild. If you want it in ufo2k set then no, It just wont fit in both concept and size but if a set were devised similar to a swat team's equipment ...


Particularly the Heavy Cannon and Plasma Weapons. And the Chainsaw. And yes, there is barely enough room left on the UFO2000 Special 'Sheet' at the moment. Maybe it could go in with the Modern Real set? (That's got loads of free space)

And remeber, we can never have enough weaponset LUA features. Every feature added adds extra depth to the game that can be combned to make ultra depth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Just visit the TFTD maps. They've got lots of depth. ^_^
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#278 Sporb

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 03:11 AM

TFTD maps are buggery to play. theres bit missing all over the place not to mention exploding sofa's - Damn do we ever need a GUI maping tool!

#279 Blood Angel

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 05:28 AM

not to mention exploding sofa's

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Nah, that was classic.

#280 Exo2000

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 07:36 AM

TFTD maps are buggery to play. theres bit missing all over the place not to mention exploding sofa's - Damn do we ever need a GUI maping tool!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Exploding Sofas = Win. B)

What we could really do with is a new version of DaiShiva's MapEdit program that works with UFO2000. But he hasn't made updates to that for a while. :(
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#281 Sporb

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 09:18 PM

even better, he releases the code for us to use. Thus the ability to add new stuff

#282 Exo2000

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 10:00 PM

True, but he hasn't really been heard from recently.
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#283 Sporb

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 11:07 PM

new editions to the ufo2k weapon set. Alien Breeching charge & Pulse detonator. They work in tandem to blow things up really good like! added for two reasons. 1- i dont like the fusion cutter but i like the idea of destroying objects easily 2- can be used to set up primitive traps. The main charge will be un throwable. We have far to few ambush technologies avaliable (A mine! yay)

weather they remain or not will depend on testing that will follow

Edited by Sporb, 19 February 2006 - 11:20 PM.


#284 Sporb

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Posted 19 February 2006 - 11:59 PM

possible way to clean up ufo2k set. Im going to split the two factions weapon sheets. This will mean that you will mean that each faction gets it's own sheet.

problems: Confusion, problems equiping squads at the sme time
benefits: much cleaner layout with more space avaliable for new items

AGAIN, this is tinering and probably wont make it to the set if there are stong arguments against

#285 ShellTox

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:44 AM

Well shields would serve too, to stop the usual strategy in games (scout & snipe).

And if a XCOM soldier can carry a chainsaw to a battle why can he take a shield?
LOL

The original XCOM games dealt with the lack of space adding a slide bar to the inventory box. Maybe this option could be implemented in Ufo2k and solve all the space problems. :)

Edited by ShellTox, 23 February 2006 - 02:45 AM.


#286 Sporb

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:47 AM

UFO never had a slide bar, it had a primitive paging system. Which is what the ufo2k set now has.
second, a Sheild is NOT a weapon (hurts if you smack somone with it tho) and Chainsaw is (the Chainsore is) it also doubles as an effective tool for removing various irritating objects and personelle

A variance on the shield would work tho, Alien Force sheild. Giant Alpha block of green that sheilds the user.

Edited by Sporb, 23 February 2006 - 02:48 AM.


#287 Exo2000

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:30 AM

UFO never had a slide bar, it had a primitive paging system. Which is what the ufo2k set now has.
second, a Sheild is NOT a weapon (hurts if you smack somone with it tho) and Chainsaw is (the Chainsore is) it also doubles as an effective tool for removing various irritating objects and personelle

A variance on the shield would work tho, Alien Force sheild. Giant Alpha block of green that sheilds the user.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I had a similar object in mind, a kinda forcefield if you will, like the ones from X-COM Apoc. They'd add extra ablative (rather than leaky) armour, BUT, this armour would be pooled between all faces. If it provided an extra, say, 50 ablative armour, then it would absorb 50 damage before being destroyed or useless.

And for those of you who are wondering what I mean by 'leaky', it's a new feature Judeau has added. Shots can 'leak' through armour and damage health anyway, but the more armour there is, the less leak, and vice versa. Locational damage is also implemented, making it very worth manual-aiming with aimed shots, because a headshot is 2x damage. OMG
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#288 Blood Angel

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:00 PM

Helmets, anyone?

#289 Exo2000

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 01:32 PM

Helmets, anyone?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Helmets won't help much anyway. :wink1:

Besides, that might mean the inventory screen would start heading towards X-COM Apoc style...
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#290 Blood Angel

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 02:21 PM

Apoc was a decent game. I just couldn't fathom out what the if-you-see-Kay was happening.

#291 ShellTox

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 02:16 PM

@ Sporb

A shield is not a weapon?? What is it then?? In my opinion the shield is a defensive weapon, just like the flying suit.

******

I agree with the force fields but they will make the game unbalanced, if don't weigh a lot.
Besides i think the tactical shield could be used against low velocity non-energy projectiles (rifles, pistols, cannons, etc) (the sniper rifle should make great damage with or without a tactical), and the force field against the high energy wepons (lasers, plasma)(same aplies, as above, to the plasma sniper rifle).


Helmets could be useful but only the soldier without any of the 3 available complete armours could wear it.

I remembered another item. If the code development allows, in-game modifications on the stats could open some more doors to new items.
To the night missions some night vision gogles, that would increase the LOS and the "light" arround the soldier who wears them.

Give your opinions =b

#292 Sporb

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 08:15 PM

A defensive weapon? isnt that a contradiction since a weapon is offensive?

anyway i view a sheild as a defensive item since it is not intended to be used to inflict harm but rather to protect the user from harm. Agreed it can be used as a weapon but so can a a flack jacket or anything for that matter.

As for the force sheild idea being unbalanced - i dont agree, so long as it is tweaked properly (IE 50 armour across all sides and only active for X turns and only stops high power weapons etc) it'd be just as ballanced as a physical sheild would be.

I beleive such items have already been discussed either here or on bug tracker.

Edited by Sporb, 25 February 2006 - 08:16 PM.


#293 Jamaru

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 08:17 PM

Actually...force fields being expensive would balance them. :)
~Plasma

#294 Exo2000

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 08:32 AM

@ Sporb

A shield is not a weapon?? What is it then?? In my opinion the shield is a defensive weapon, just like the flying suit.

******

I agree with the force fields but they will make the game unbalanced, if don't weigh a lot.
Besides i think the tactical shield could be used against low velocity non-energy projectiles (rifles, pistols, cannons, etc) (the sniper rifle should make great damage with or without a tactical), and the force field against the high energy wepons (lasers, plasma)(same aplies, as above, to the plasma sniper rifle).


I think you've hit an important idea here. Energy blocks energy, kinetic blocks kinetic, with the exception of bodyarmour. :)

Helmets could be useful but only the soldier without any of the 3 available complete armours could wear it.


Technically, the Personal Armour doesn't have a helmet. So helmets would only be useful for T-Shirt and Rifle troopers, who are invariably about 100% expendable and have a life expectancy of several milliseconds.

I remembered another item.  If the code development allows, in-game modifications on the stats could open some more doors to new items.
To the night missions some night vision gogles, that would increase the LOS and the "light" arround the soldier who wears them.

Give your opinions  =b

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I think flares were supposed to be being readded at some point, but I'm not sure. Would be cool if there was time-burn and permanent flares. (Time-burn last only a few rounds but provide plenty of light, whereas Permanent flares can be picked up and reused, lasting the entire battle, but provide little light)
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#295 Sporb

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 08:43 PM

We can have unique weapons! i just realised that weapons can exist while not appearing on a weapon sheet, this means we can have special weapons for squads that come with the game - Elite aliens could have those blue plasma guns i created and humans could have scoped guns and so on

#296 Kratos

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Posted 03 March 2006 - 09:15 PM

We can have unique weapons! i just realised that weapons can exist while not appearing on a weapon sheet, this means we can have special weapons for squads that come with the game - Elite aliens could have those blue plasma guns i created and humans could have scoped guns and so on

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

???
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#297 Blehm 98

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 12:54 AM

you mean like an empty space where... say... a heavy plasma would appear normally?
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#298 Sporb

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 03:12 AM

im using this teqhnique to clean up the ufo2k weaponset - if you designate a space in the sheet where another gun should appear, neither will show up. It's OK for now since we dont have any other way to do it. If one were to include a gun but purposely make it 'vanish' it would be hard to arm your men with it

#299 Kratos

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Posted 04 March 2006 - 10:12 AM

Oh that. That's just to prevent crashing. Yes it can give more space for more weapons, but unfortunately nobody can use them unless they edit their men through the squad lua file. In essence, hidden weapons...
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Posted 06 March 2006 - 01:15 PM

I don't see what is wrong with making the unit equiping more like APOC. APOC had a great meathod marred only by the fact that your units would not auto re-arm after combat. It would enable us to implement Riot Shields, Energy shields, helmets, Night vision, More mine types, Cloaking devices, limited range teleporters, etc...
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