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ART - Issue #87 - Morlock


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#1 gregie

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 12:48 AM

greetings to all.
i'd like to introduce myself, as i'm new here.
my name's greg, i'm 22 and live in israel.
this project seems to be of a very professional level, and i'm hoping to see it come to completion.

i'v started on the muton model. there seems to be some mixup with the concept art. i guess that the concept art shown here is out of date? (fuxor - plz confirm)
fuxor gave me the attached image.

i'v started with the head (see attached pics)

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#2 fux0r666

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 05:05 AM

I addressed most of this when I replied to your PM. The progression of the Morlock concept is available on this thread.

I chose the pink drawing because I prefer its face. The colour of it isn't really important at this point, and you will see many colour variations in that thread.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#3 Shinzon

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Posted 20 April 2005 - 05:50 PM

looks like a good start :D

glad to see some one else around here... its been getting a little bit too lonley :P

Hope to see more of you around here

#4 gregie

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 01:25 PM

an update.
c&c please.

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#5 guyver6

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 02:11 PM

Hmm, I'm not an artist, but... :)

Looks awesome for a first impression. Professional looking work.

And now constructive comments:
* How about having more polys, even if we'll need to cut that amount later for battlescape, it's nice to have more details first. We can even make bump mapping using normal maps so lo-poly model will have lots details, but to do this hi-poly one is needed. And XNet has pretty high poly limit, since one model at the time is displayed there.
* Arms and shoulders could look stronger, more tough.
* Chest look too human-like, muscles are too square, also it lack that muscle-helpers or whatever-name-that-funny-steel-parts-have :D (edit: maybe you'll add them later thou, if that's the case then never mind)
* The shorter finger look too thick or the rest is too thin.

Great start anyway. :)

Greetings,
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Edited by guyver6, 21 April 2005 - 02:14 PM.

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#6 gregie

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 02:46 PM

as for the poly count: i'd love to use more polys, but i'm afraid i'm barely gonna make the 2000 limit as it is... i'm cutting polys left and right.

i guess i'll need to somehow make two models. one lowpoly, and the other meshsmoothed. problem is: a model needs to be optimized for meshsmooth for the meshsmooth to look good.

i suppose that after i'm done i'll need to work it over and make a smoothed version? thats a lot of work... any modelers have ideas regarding this issue?
i suppose this issue is relevant for almost every model in the project.

========================

i see what you mean about the arms being too wimpy and the finger being too thick. i'll take care of that.

the metal parts... i *was* gonna add them at the end. but if anyone has a better idea, please let me know.

#7 fux0r666

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 04:33 PM

i suppose that after i'm done i'll need to work it over and make a smoothed version? thats a lot of work... any modelers have ideas regarding this issue?
i suppose this issue is relevant for almost every model in the project.

========================

i see what you mean about the arms being too wimpy and the finger being too thick. i'll take care of that.

the metal parts... i *was* gonna add them at the end. but if anyone has a better idea, please let me know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Yeah, complete this first, and add the appropriate shading groups and then you can think about meshsmooth. You can collapse the meshsmooth modifier after you've applied it and the program will increase the polycount of the mesh to look like it did in meshsmooth. From there I think you can add details as you see fit, although I'm certainly no expert on high poly techniques.

The humanness of the torso may be a function of its posture... although, admittedly, I was more interested in making the thing look like it had a natural anatomy than making it look alien as far as the torso was concerned. All of these issues may be remedied with some soft-select vertex manipulation later. I would wait to see what the muscular anatomy looks like with all the limbs and the neck in place.

Also, I think you should get a composition that looks good without the cybernetics and then tack those on. A lot of those details may be possible with a slight addition in polies and smoothing groups + textures- and then more seriously in the normal map's per pixel shading.

I agree, though. The arms could use a little buffening up- but let's not get too caught up in revisions before the model is finished.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#8 Vaaish

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 06:26 PM

Guyver: standing art policy is make it playable first then add fancy effects and high res models.

#9 red knight

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Posted 21 April 2005 - 08:32 PM

Yeap, we decided that after the much goes and comes that had arrisen two to three months ago.

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#10 guyver6

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 01:48 AM

Hmm, I just thought it looks a little less detailed comparing to human shirt model, but on second thought it'll be used in battlescape primarily, so it's enough for it. Sorry if my comment made you upset. I said I'm not an artist ;)

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#11 Vaaish

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 05:57 AM

Hmm, I just thought it looks a little less detailed comparing to human shirt model, but on second thought it'll be used in battlescape primarily, so it's enough for it. Sorry if my comment made you upset. I said I'm not an artist ;)

Guyver

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


nope not upset, just alerting you to what the policy is. Shirt armors are a little different; we are using them as the highpoly test run for you PRG boys. :)

#12 gregie

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 10:20 AM

i'v connected the head.
it's currrently at 2000 polys. i'm working on dropping that.
i dont wanna increase the size of the shoulders as the mesh will need to be refined if i do that - and i dont yet know how many polys i'll be able to free up.

also, what are the "RPG boys"

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#13 guyver6

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 10:59 AM

OMFG

I love that model. You could reduce some polys from head as it looks pretty detailed. and that arms... :rolleyes:

PRG = Programming, in example me :D

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#14 Vaaish

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 11:00 AM

Lookin good. I think that you have the spirit of the concept piece down. I think that the fingers are a little long right now and chould come to more of a point. I t also looks like th palm is a little short so maybe pull the points from the top of the palm up and shorten the fingers that way as well.

Side note, the arms and legs could stand to be a bit bulkier to accentuate his muscle structure and graphically show how tough he is.

Could you post a wireframe view? That'll help me see where you are burning most of the polys :)

Edited by Vaaish, 22 April 2005 - 11:04 AM.


#15 gregie

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:15 PM

????? i wanted to attach a 3ds file, but i cant seem to be able to attach files.

:blink2:

#16 Vaaish

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Posted 22 April 2005 - 12:16 PM

????? i wanted to attach a 3ds file, but i cant seem to be able to attach files.

:blink2:

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try attaching it as a zip file, it that fails upload it to the task tracker.

#17 gregie

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 09:16 AM

i think i have the body pretty much wrapped up. i'm starting to add the bionic stuff.

its currently at 2048 polys. i HATE shaving off polys. with every poly i take out - i feel like i'm ruining the model... i hope that normal mapping thing is as good as people say it is.

does anyone know what are the requirements for viewing normal maps in max 6? when i try to load a shader that displays normal maps, it says "undeclared identifier 'expand' ".
i have nvidia gforce 3 ti 200. maybe this card cant support normal maps...?
any nput on this would be apretiated.

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#18 red knight

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 10:53 AM

GeForce 3 cards cannot run pixel shaders (a requirement of normal mapping) ;)

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#19 Vaaish

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 11:37 AM

If you are 100 -150 polys over it's not going to kill performance.

#20 red knight

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Posted 23 April 2005 - 03:26 PM

The idea of the threadhold is not too overuse polygons, use what you need to get a professional looking model. However, watch out for the poly count. BTW lots of geometry issues can be corrected with normal mapping in higher level video cards. But that is out of scope (for now).

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#21 gregie

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 05:32 AM

well, i recon i'm just about finished modeling.
its at 2066 polygons.
i guess i'll just add a little more cyber stuff, and then start rigging.

about size: he's currently 200cm high when standing upright. due to the anatomy of his legs - he will rarely be upright. so his actual heigth will be closer to 165cm. that makes him shorter then most humans. i'm afraid that will heart his image as a big hulking guy. should i perhaps make him taller?

i'm posting some pics, and a max file. if anyone has any comments about any aspect of the model - please make yourself heared.

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#22 Vaaish

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 08:43 AM

Looking very good, I think you are pretty close to finishing it.

For the time being you don't need to rig the model. I'd like to get it textured first.

Before you call it quits on the model I think the feet nee a little work, they seem to be a little thin and could stand to have an extra poly or two to flesh out their shape a bit more. Also because of the way the legs bend it will be easier to get them set up in that position for when you rig and animate the mdoel later.

Edited by Vaaish, 24 April 2005 - 08:46 AM.


#23 red knight

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Posted 24 April 2005 - 11:50 AM

Great work, I like where this model is going. We can use some changes to the foots, and hands but it is looking good.

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Visit my blog at: flois.blogspot.com

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#24 guyver6

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 02:14 AM

And definitely it should be taller due to anatomy of his legs. (edit: maybe make middle part of legs stay the same and extend calf and a little thigh)

Guyver

Edited by guyver6, 25 April 2005 - 02:16 AM.

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#25 gregie

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 11:51 AM

umm... an update.
the hands are still a little funny. cant seem to figure out why.

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#26 Vaaish

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 12:47 PM

looks much better with the changes to the legs and feet.

the hands might just look odd because they are very human but lack five fingers. in the concept sketch they almost look webbed and end in much more pointed "claws"

#27 fux0r666

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 01:26 PM

Good job, manno. Nice anatomy. I think you did good justice to my concept. I'm quite pleased with your treatment of the idea!

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#28 Vaaish

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Posted 25 April 2005 - 09:54 PM

G: great work, after you tweak the hands I'd say pack it up and start texturing :)

#29 gregie

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 02:28 PM

i hate unwrapping.
:Brickwall:

#30 fux0r666

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Posted 27 April 2005 - 04:57 PM

Post number 95 in this thread has some suggestions about texturing.

I've found that you don't have to break the model up into elements, but it helps to do so if the various parts that you're breaking the model up into for the uvws are not seperated in an obvious way.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#31 gregie

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 12:59 AM

LOL.
yes. but the banging the head on the wall part is trying to fix all the stretching...
:)

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#32 Vaaish

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 05:38 AM

the stretcing doesn't look too bad, primarily on the head and hands.

#33 gregie

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 06:38 AM

yes, i hadent started the hands and head when i posted that.
but there is stretching all over the legs and the ribs...
nm that now. at some point you just have to say $crew it, and move on.

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Edited by gregie, 28 April 2005 - 06:39 AM.


#34 Vaaish

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 07:18 AM

looks good :) I don't think the texture is going to need much detail in the legs so the stretching might not even be noticeable

Edited by Vaaish, 28 April 2005 - 07:19 AM.


#35 gregie

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 10:36 AM

ok, i just realized we havent decided on any kind of colour/texture. fux said that the ref pic colour was just rudimentry.

so... what colour are we going for? are we sticking with pink? should i add some pigtails?

how will the skin look? any tatoos? boils? old battle scars perhaps...?

#36 Vaaish

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 11:08 AM

I would stay away from unique markings like battle scars since with multiple enemies it will look odd. Let see what Fux had in mind bvefore proceeding.

#37 fux0r666

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 03:20 PM

I was thinking that a sort of 2 tone natural marking skin would be interesting to look at. The pink and blue colour scheme was just to illlustrate my point.. and I seem to have a perpensity to try and make my aliens look fleshy. I would say that you ought to draw upon reptiles and amphibians for your inspiration.. animals with warning markings like poisonous toads and such.

Posted Image
darth maul in frog form.

Posted Image

Posted Image

I like the earthy tones of the latter 2 better, but that is my sensibility. See what you can come up with :)

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#38 Guest_Azrael_*

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 03:28 PM

I love how this model is coming along :), but don't you think that the feet look a little small? they don't seem big enough to support such a big body.
Awesome work =b

#39 fux0r666

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 04:02 AM

I think the feet should be fine. The morlock has an advanced equilibrium due to the fact that it's whole ear is inner ear.

That, and he has strong core muscles.

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


Posted Image

#40 gregie

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 05:42 AM

i'm not sure about the feet being small, actually..
they are about the same size as those of an ostrich, i believe.

note: the texture in the pic is just something i'm experimenting with, not something thats gonna be used.

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#41 ATeX

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 06:35 AM

I don't think that texture will need much tweaking. It's looking great already!!!

fantastic job you did there!


cheers!

#42 Vaaish

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 07:58 AM

I don't think that texture quite reads menacing. One reason is the multicolored patches in teh skin. Perhaps pick a single color for those patches and use them like face paint. Look at some more photos of poisonous animals to see what kind of colors to pick. Also tone down the "scales" and make them more subtle almost a leathery skin instead.

#43 gregie

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 09:05 AM

thx for the comments.
i knew i should have posted it without the texture :)

the texture is just what he happened to be wearing when i did the render. the render was to illustrate his feet, not the texture.
the coloured patches are just to see what those colours would look like on him.

i think i'm gonna go with earth tones, and some patches of desaturated colour add some interest.
i'm using comodo dragons and predatory dinos as reference.

i really love the idea of body paint though. if we wanna make them a traditional passionate warrior race, body paint would certainly be cool. or maybe some tribal tatoos? maybe done as a rite of passage..?
i'm gonna look at some tribal warriors body painting/tatooing.

#44 gregie

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 03:56 PM

progressing.

trying to choose colours and skin textures.
i'm not sure i like the color of the belly..
and maybe i'll go with a smooth skin.

i'm also thinking of maybe throwing a slight "sheen" on the model? sortoff like having alien alloyes embedded in the skin - which makes the skin tougher to penetrate.
i'm not sure i like the high specularity, but i cant seem to add a shin without adding specularity.

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#45 Shinzon

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 07:39 PM

Wow good job you are lighning fast :D

mabe make his belly and inner arms around the same colour as a crocodile?

#46 Vaaish

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Posted 29 April 2005 - 11:16 PM

I would stay away from the seond version it loooks too much like plastic wrap is on him.

Maybe have the tough leathery hide look on segments of him and then blend it into a softer flesh?

#47 gregie

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 07:54 AM

crocodiles' underbelies are too bright.. but i do plan on having a different coloured stomach.

i'm not sure what textures to use for flesh. i dont wanna make it look too soft. the front side should be most armoured.

vaaish - do u mean having most of him fleshy, and only small patches leathered?

what do you people think of using body paint and tatoos?

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Edited by gregie, 30 April 2005 - 08:01 AM.


#48 red knight

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 09:27 AM

Gregie are you using geometry for the alloys things? I recomend not to do that, use a bump map instead, you can use a gloss map too to add specularity only where you want.

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#49 fux0r666

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Posted 30 April 2005 - 10:42 PM

There was some discussion about tattoos quite a while ago, which is where the inspiration for the poisonous animal colouration came from.

Give it a shot!

Here I go an angry brother gonna make his move
But can I buck him in the city so I never lose?
See I'm a get him in the crowd with a couple heavies
And lay the barrel to the ground, hold the gat steady
And now I'm ready for my adversary, talk is cheap
I'm looking for a way to make a plan gonna keep it neat
So don't be telling me to get the non-violent spirit
'cause when I'm violent is the only time the devils hear it
'cause all I want to see is m****f***ing brains hanging


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#50 gregie

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:41 AM

hi.
the holydays are over, so i'll have less free time now.

using texture for the cyber stuff is prolly a good idea.
i'll do it, except for the bicep.

i'm having a hard time texturing the thing. perhaps the unwrap isnt good?

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