Shoot Down Over Ocean...

[MikeTheRed]

Hiya folks,

 

Question:

 

If I know I'm not going to bother to do a Crash Recovery (and just want to down the sucker), does it make any difference if I down the UFO over land or the ocean? The in-game difference being, of course, that it's entirely lost over the sea.

 

Does it make any difference e.g. for scoring? (Does it count as 'destoyed' vs. 'crashed' even if the fighter intercept screen says it crashed, but it disappears if downed over an ocean?)

 

Inquiring minds want to know! <~ too much coffee

[[Blehm 98]]

judging by the way the game works, i would guess that it would count as crash. But someone like NKF or zombie would need to check this for me.

[[stewart]]

My guess is no difference. Remember though if you visit a site and dust of immediately I think you do get SOME points.

[[Blehm 98]]

I don't know, stupid xcom can't give you exactly how many points you get, no... it has to be all stupid and give you a completely wrong amount of points

 

oh yeah, what do you mean no difference? blowing up a UFO grants a lot more points(doesn't matter for large ships, but for small scouts, you get 50 more points for its destruction)

[Zombie]

One of the first tests I ever did was dealing with points gained vs. shooting down/destroying UFO's. It does not matter where you shoot the UFO down; as soon as it crashes you get some points added to your score. (The amount depends on UFO size, see table below):

 

UFO Type            Destroyed          Grounded
Small Scout            100                 50
Medium Scout           150                 75
Large Scout            250                125
Harvester              500                250
Abductor               500                250
Supply Ship            800                400
Terror Ship           1000                500
Battleship            1400                700

Data taken from Table 1-1, pg 8 of the Official Strategy Guide by David Ellis

As you can see, you get double the points in destroying the UFO than forcing it to land. The reason why the destroyed values are higher than the grounded ones is because you cannot visit the crash site if the UFO is destroyed.

 

If you visit a crash site and dust-off immediately, you get 0 points. (You must actually do something to get points in X-COM). Say you force a Small Scout to crash land. That nets you 50 points. But you also get some points for visiting the crash site and killing or stunning the alien present, and also recovering the body and artifacts. For the Small Scout, it is very difficult to gain an additional 50 points for a successful mission. What this means is that the Destroyed Score will almost always be greater than the Grounded Score + Visiting the crash site Score. It is therefore much more fruitful to destroy this vessel than shooting it down because of the discrepancy in points awarded.

 

However, the larger the vessel is, the greater the probability that you will recoup the score difference by shooting down the UFO and visiting the crash site than just destroying it. The break even point depends on a number of factors, but a safe estimate would be that a Medium Scout or Large Scout will normally offer more points alive than dead. This really becomes apparent as you climb up the ladder to the bigger UFO's. A Battleship will always net you more than 1400 points if you shoot it down and visit the crash site. (And another note: you cannot destroy a Terror Ship, Supply Ship or Battleship. I illegally modified an Avenger to have dual Fusion Ball launchers with 200 for ammo and sent it out to shoot down the larger craft. After many, many attempts, I was unable to destroy these ships).

 

- Zombie

[MikeTheRed]

Thanks for nailing that down, Z man. One clarification pls:

If you visit a crash site and dust-off immediately, you get 0 points. (You must actually do something to get points in X-COM).

You then go on to describe situations that sound like completing a crash recovery mission. But you simply mean, you have to do things that get you points, a la the point listing helpfully posted by Danial in the wiki, eh?

 

In terms of partially completing a mission, you could e.g. kill an alien and then take off... or also, try to load stuff into your craft (including stunned aliens), then take off, eh?

 

All in all though, it sounds pretty all or nothing... you may as well either go all the way, or just leave it be if you don't want to e.g. deal with ethereals yet. (Or just don't want to bother with non-preferred combat missions. I'm only doing mutons these days, for the firing accuracy.)

[[stewart]]

If you visit a crash site and dust-off immediately, you get 0 points.

 

Not nessessarily, if there are corpses, don't you get credit for the kills?

[Zombie]

Right. If you visit a site and do nothing, you get no points. However, if you kill an alien and then dust-off you get some points for that. But the point is you have to actually do something to change that 0 point initial score.

 

In the StrategyCore forums, I am well known for the "smash 'n grab" routine for alien bases. I visit an alien base, kill all the aliens but one, drag all the bodies/weapons/elerium back to the green area and then dust off. You gain an enormous amount of points/weapons/bodies in which to better defeat the aliens, while still keeping the base intact for further pummeling.

 

As for the all or nothing scenario:

It may not be such a good idea to ignore sites when your points for the month are on the low side. Take a few Blaster Launchers along on an Ethereal mission. When you arrive, equip your first troopers with the Launchers. On the first round, nuke the battlescape into oblivion. (If you can see the ship, even better. One BB to open up the roof, and a second into the command center to kill a good chunk of the Psi-perpetrators does wonders). This immediately reduces alien morale making the mission easier to complete. Even if you don't have Blaster Launchers/Bombs researched yet, you can still go to a mission, kill a few Ethereals and then dust off if you anticipate trouble.

 

[Edit: Say a ship crash lands and one or two Engineers die from the Power Sources exploding. If you dustoff with those dead engineers sitting there, you still get 0 points. You must actually do something to get points on a mission. Incedental kills don't help your score. ]

 

- Zombie

Edited September 17, 2005 by Zombie

[[stewart]]

But what about the corpses as a result of the crash itself?

[Zombie]

See my previous post, stewart. I didn't want to double post, so I just edited.

[MikeTheRed]

I visit an alien base, kill all the aliens but one, drag all the bodies/weapons/elerium back to the green area and then dust off.

Hey wow that sounds cool - especially if I can get the muties to make a base. Dammit - why'd I free Scotland from their evil influence a few months ago? It was only Scotland, fer crying out loud

 

There's Elerium at bases?? Wait... I think I've seen it sometimes, in one of the modules that occasionally shows up. (Or is it in the command center?) I guess you can't take any furniture with you, eh?

[Snakeman]

You can find elerium in bases, but the module that its in is that upside down "U" shaped facility. There's one way in and a 1 tile grav lift to a second floor with 4 rooms. You want the south room. There are 2 power sources but only 1 has elerium you can grab out of it (check the overhead map for that little "+" that marks a map item artifact, that'd be the one to crack open).

 

I've been spending a lot of time hitting bases over and over, if nothing else, to see what kinds of maps generate each time. I don't recall ever playing the same alien base layout twice. I once had a Sectoid base spawn two of those U shaped buildings...good times.

[Zombie]

Nope, furniture stays with the base. Think of a Power Source as a refrigerator in a rented apartment. You can't take the frig along with you when you leave, but you can take any food contained within (Elerium). Unfortunately, in order to do this in an alien base, you need to destroy the Power Source to get at the Elerium underneath. (This may not be the perfect analogy, but you get the idea). The only weapons which work are the Heavy Laser, Plasma Rifle, Heavy Plasma, a HWP's Laser Cannon or Plasma Cannon. Some explosives can destroy the PS, but the Elerium is also destroyed since it is considered an "item".

 

So we are on the same page, I took some screenies a while back of where you can find the Power Sources. The first shows the module views from the map screen (Level 0 and 1):

 

 

The next screenshots are views from within the module (Level 1). The first shows the intact Power Sources, while the second shows the destroyed PS with the purple sphere representing the Elerium:

 

 

If you step on top of the destroyed Power Source, you can pick up the elerium (represented as yellow crystals in the soldier item screen). Then haul back with your loot and dustoff. Free Elerium for the taking.

 

Notice the destroyed Power Sources. Only one of them is powered (contains Elerium). The other one does not. Additional Power Source modules have both PS powered. I think the max number of this type of module is 4 for an alien base, so you could potentially be looking at 350 units of Elerium if the game creates this many.

 

- Zombie

[[stewart]]

Okay what if I make one soldier (at the back of my sky ranger) curtsey; is that doing something?

[MikeTheRed]

Thanks, you two! Good stuff. I'm putting it in the wiki!

 

Haha Stew! If it's one of those cute blonde soldiers, it could affect your scoring!

 

On second thought... damn these power suits!

Edited September 17, 2005 by MikeTheRed

[Zombie]

Okay what if I make one soldier (at the back of my sky ranger) curtsey; is that doing something?

Nope, that doesn't do anything.

 

How about this: you must kill an alien or recover an item to increase your score when dusting-off. On the flip side of the coin, if a soldier gets killed within the confines of your craft, you get negative points depending on the rank and skill of the soldier.

 

- Zombie

[[stewart]]

damm! <_>

[MikeTheRed]

Hmm... ok, so destroying the smaller guys is important, and it's especially good to destroy any that you don't plan to go fight.

 

What, then, are the best ways to increase chances of destroying vs. simply crashing a UFO? (not counting Terror Ship, Supply Ship or Battleship, which Z says can't be destroyed)

 

As a general rule, I have been simply putting plasma beams on everything, and using Firestorms for most interceptions, but the occasional Avenger if I need to catch a BB fast. Also for all interceptions I do "cautious attack", which keeps me out of range. Except for BBs, where I do aggressive, the idea being to shoot them down before they shoot me down. (Not sure if it really matters though, but I have yet to lose even a Firestorm after doing this a hundred times. Came pretty close once though.)

 

Usually that smallest craft is destroyed by the double PBs set to cautious. Others are less likely to be.

 

It's another little mini-game I never thought about much

[Danial]

I'd guess that destroying would be some percentage over the UFO's HPs, such as 150% or something.

 

So 100-149% would result in a crashing, and >150% would result in destroying. The question is, what are those numbers?

 

Some important numbers for anyone planning on testing this:

 

UFO Type      HP
--------     ----
Small Scout    50
Medium Scout  200
Large Scout   250
Harvester     500
Abductor      500
Terror Ship  1200
Supply Ship  2200
Battleship   3000

 

Weapon      Damage
------      ------
Cannon        10
Stingray      70
Avalanche    100
Laser Cannon  70
Plasma Beam  140
Fusion Ball  230

 

I'm not sure if craft weapons always nit their mark though, so it will be hard to know if a hit has been successful or not...

Edited September 18, 2005 by Danial

[Danial]

I've just done a few small tests myself with the following results:

 

- Large Scout[250] took 1xFusion Ball[230] hit... crashed!

 

- Battleship[3000] took 11xPlasma Beam[140] and 2xFusion Ball[230] hits... crashed!

 

- Abductor[500] took 2xFusion Ball[230] hits... crashed!

 

That's 92% damage for the Large Scout, 66.66% for the Battleship, and 92% for the Abductor!

 

From the looks of this very limited experiment, I'd assume that an attack needs to be >100% to destroy the UFO...

Edited September 18, 2005 by Danial

[[Blehm 98]]

which would explain why even duo interceptors will kill Small scouts. 50 HP is very limited

[MikeTheRed]

Danial, I'd been wondering if maybe I should try FBs to get more Destroyed results. But in your tests, it looks like that's not necessarily gonna be the case! especially if they'll crash with sub-total damage. Hmm...

 

As I see it, the variables are 1) weapon type, 2) attack type (cautious, etc.), and to a lesser extent 3) XCOM craft type. The craft only comes into play in terms of being able to catch up to a UFO (!) and being able to withstand damage, I suppose. (Not counting the oddball Lightning, which only accepts one weapon.)

 

As I was saying, I would've hoped the biggest bang would've been the best bet for going 'over the top' in damage, and getting a Destroyed. But that doesn't necessarily seem to be the case, and outfitting part of my fleet with FBs and part with PBs can make for messy logistics. Maybe with Medium Scouts is where they'd make the difference between a crash and a kill?

 

P.S. Z and Snake, I just played my first mission with a 'pet' Muton base. Even walked off with some Elerium. Thanks for the tip!

Edited September 19, 2005 by MikeTheRed

[Sharp]

Well this is an interesting topic, but after seeing the destroyed vs crash figures it still goes back to the original question. If you down a UFO over water, does it count as crashed or destroyed???

[MikeTheRed]

Hiya Sharp, welcome to the forum!!

 

I took what Zombie said above to mean that if it crashes over water (the Intercept popup says 'crashed'), it counts as Crashed, not as Destroyed. Of course, if the popup says Destroyed, it's Destroyed. As he said, "it doesn't matter where you shoot it down". Only what the popup says, governs the points you get. Correct me if wrong Z!

[[stewart]]

Migel, the purpose of the FB launcher is to give your interceptors teeth WRT battleships ONLY, and ONLY when you do not yet have UFOs of your own.

 

Four simulataneously attacking interceptors armed with dual fusion ball will smash a battleship. Often you will lose one interceptor, rarely two, but occasionally none (I have done it, more than once). If you lose that interceptor at the end of the month then who cares.

 

Beyond that FB launcher are pretty much useless.

[[NKF]]

Well, they're actually an extravagant way of getting rid of small scouts. I mean, if you are up to your ears in elerium, there's no harm in splurging on the e-115 stockpiles a bit, even for something as pointless as blowing a small scout out of the sky.

 

- NKF

[jack cloudy]

Perhaps not the way most people do this when they want to know. But for an ingame explanation, take a look at this. Somewhere in the manual of Terror from the Deep if my memory is correct, some guy who was explaining the Gauss guns said that the alien alloys dissolved in the salt water, causing elerium to leak out which killed the testing team. Now, X-com is fought in the skies, I think that they simply decided to forget about those ufo's that land in the water and instead focus on the ones they could more easily recover, coming back to the ones that hit the ocean after the war. If you know that alien alloys dissolve in salt water with lethal results (and just a plain waste of money and elerium), you're not going to test it! I think they didn't tried out if alien alloys dissolved when submerged in the ocean. Crashed simply means:,, Alright, it crashed in the ocean, we know where it did that. We'll go look for it someday, but first let us focus on saving the planet! We don't have time for these expensive recoveries. And next time, Charlie, wait till it's above land."

 

And yeah, taking an Avenger with dual Fusion Bombs against a small scout and have it attack agressive is kind of fun.

[Zombie]

I did some tests with craft weapons a long time ago. My observations at that time were that the greater the damage inflicted per-shot, the greater the probability of destroying the UFO.

 

Preconditions for these tests: Aggressive attack, Avenger, one Fusion Ball Launcher. For a Small scout, a single shot by a Fusion Ball is instantaneous destruction. The Medium Scout (200 for damage capacity) I did not test.

 

But I did test the Large Scout (250 damage capacity) against Fusion Balls. 73% of the time a Large Scout will crash after 1 shot with a Fusion Ball. 11% of the time it took 2 shots to bring it down. (16% of the time, a Fusion Ball would miss the target). Where it took 2 shots to down a Large Scout:

 

9/11 (or 81.8%) resulted in destruction of the Large Scout

2/11 (or 18.2%) resulted in a crash landing

in 3% of all encounters, the Fusion Ball missed both shots

13% of the time, the Fusion Ball Launcher had a 50% hit rate (one out of two shots).

 

As you can see, destroying a Large Scout happens about 9% of the time with a single Fusion Ball Launcher. Dual launchers will undoubtedly increase this percentage. For the large and very large UFO's (Battleship, Terror Ship, Supply Ship) it is impossible to destroy these craft with dual launchers. I have yet to test the medium sized craft against dual launchers, but it may be possible to destroy them. However, I know for a fact that single launchers will not destroy a Harvester or Abductor – it will only crash it.

 

- Zombie

[MikeTheRed]

Cool! I didn't realize you were testing with one gun. I've got an endgame (super rich) situation and it'll be fun to load up two FBLs, to test against those guys. If it involves loud bangs and bogeys going down in smoke, I'm there! Will report back after I get those results. Thanks for yours as always, Dr. Z!

[Zombie]

No problem.

 

The reason why I was using single launchers was because they do less damage. It is therefore easier to count the hits and misses, and will give closer numbers to damage needed to inflict a crash or a total destruction.

 

More tests today with Dual Fusion Ball Launchers and an unlucky Abductor (500 damage). I must have shot down that UFO about 300 times (seriously). Not once did I destroy it. So I'd have to say that the Large Scout is the biggest UFO which you can destroy with Fusion Balls.

 

- Zombie

[[stewart]]

Single volley, right?

[Zombie]

Single or dual volley, it just doesn't seem to be possible to destroy anything larger than a Large Scout. And from the limited tests I did today using dual Fusion Launchers against a Large Scout, the destruction ratio isn't any higher than what the single launcher can accomplish. Me thinks that the listed damage of the craft weapon is used to determine the ultimate fate of the UFO (crashed or destroyed). Though, there must be some kind of range involved since the Fusion Ball has a listed damage of 230, while the Large Scout has a damage capacity of 250. I say that because for the majority of encounters, the Large Scout crash lands after only one shot.

 

- Zombie

[MikeTheRed]

Me thinks that the listed damage of the craft weapon is used to determine the ultimate fate of the UFO (crashed or destroyed).

Dagnabbit. Not even dual FBs can take out a Large Scout?

 

But wait... if your statement is true, the flip side works in one's favor. I could (in theory) put 1 FB and 1 PB on most of my fleet... which should make the difference between Crashing or Destroying Medium Scouts. Everything else would be business as usual (just take longer to shoot down anything bigger), except that a some of my craft would still be dual PBs, to take down BBs.

 

I say "in theory" because the question of whether or not I/anyone would want to expend 4 E115 per FB, and the hassle of ammo, just for a 150 point difference every now and then, is debatable. Anybody got stats on how often the different sizes show up? It probably depends on a number of things, though, like whether retaliation is in order, whether scouts had successful missions (leading to larger followup UFOs), etc.

 

I'm deep into testing something else right now (experience points gained vs. number of primary combat actions taken) or I'd be testing/verifying vs. Medium Scouts already.

[Zombie]

Dagnabbit. Not even dual FBs can take out a Large Scout?

You must have misunderstood me. Dual or single Fusion Ball Launchers are able to destroy a Large Scout (albeit only ~9% of all encounters). But my limited testing with dual launchers showed no more destruction than a lone launcher did. If dual launchers had an instantaneous combined damage added to the UFO (460), I would have seen a larger increase in destruction percentage. I didn't see that. When dual volleys are launched, the damage from one missile is calculated first and subtracted from the UFO. Then the damage from the second missile is calculated and subtracted. It's as if you had a rapid-fire single launcher, except that if the first shot connected so will the second.

 

- Zombie

[[stewart]]

So if you have dula weapons the to-hit is calculated once? Is it the same with mixed weapons?

[MikeTheRed]

You must have misunderstood me. Dual or single Fusion Ball Launchers are able to destroy a Large Scout (albeit only ~9% of all encounters).

Er... sorry I wasn't clear... 91% crashes is close enough to "not being able to destroy it", for me to not want to bother with reworking my fleet to the hassle of expensive FBs. I still want to test 1 FB against Medium Scouts when I can... with any luck they'll be 100% toast

[Tuoppi]

What about with multiple interceptors? Can they hit simultaneously, hit the falling wreck or is there just one hit and normal crash?

[[NKF]]

It would be very difficult to get multiple ships to hit simultaneously, because you have to order each ship in sequence. By the time the order to the new ship has been issued, the other ship will already be ahead of it. And even if you do time it just right so that the second ship arrives just in time for the first ship's next volley, the first ship will be out of ammo.

 

- NKF

[Tuoppi]

That is why i didn't find out myself. This is the part in which one of you guys comes up with yet another bright idea. Or countless repeating tests.

[Zombie]

"Countless repeating tests" is my middle name.

 

Like NKF mentioned, you cannot get all the interceptors to attack simultaneously, simply because your reactions are not quick enough, and there isn't a way to control the craft in a group. Each attack is therefore limited to a singular nature.

 

However, there are some instances when you can manually finagle the intercept buttons a bit. For instance, if you order Craft#1 to attack aggressively, and then order Craft#2 to do the same, you might be able to hit the "disengage" button, or the "stand-off" button to back the first one off a bit. Then after the two crafts are at the same distance, click the aggressive button for Craft#1. This sometimes allows a simultaneous attack to begin. The weapons might be firing off-sync, but it is as close to a group attack as you can get. Sometimes you even get lucky and get the firing rates to coincide.

 

- Zombie