Guest Azrael Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Wasn't aware of that , can't capture one alive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Boxershorts Posted February 26, 2005 Report Share Posted February 26, 2005 Well, I think you could eventually manage to MC one quarter of a Cyberdisc (since, programaticly, they were four units hooked together). You couldn't access the it's weaponry though, and on the next turn, the other three quarters would see it as an enemy and shoot it, with predictable results. From the alien stats doc (which may be out of date, or ignored at this point), they were just going to be set to be immune to psi, along with Artopods. -The Captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Ok then, so the only way to obtain a live Terrordisc is to get the info from an engineer, ok, will fix it .Will probably have to fix Alien Breeding as well, remove live Terrordisc and live Artopod as requisites, it's fairly obvious anyway that they don't reproduce in normal ways.Thanks for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 you should also add the artopod to cloaks engineers, in similar fashion as the terror disk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted February 27, 2005 Report Share Posted February 27, 2005 Ok, will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 hey - after reading the recreation topic, i though that that topic should only be researchable AFTER psionic theory. It has alot of psi elelemnts integrated - nothing wrong with that, it fits, but it should only be researchable after psi theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 That has been pointed out already. Then it should be researchable after researching PsiLab, since Psionic Theory is a bonus entry which pops up without research hours required along with psi-lab.The options are either we change the tree to make it researchable after psi-lab, or we add a short paragraph at the beginning of the recreation entry saying that after several texts, it has been concluded that the device affects individual minds, since the effects on each subject is different. I lean towards adding the paragraph, what do the rest think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astyanax Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 (edited) Well, I lean towards changing the tech tree because psionics are so integral to the current Alien Recreation CT that adding an extra "disclaimer" paragraph (for cases where Alien Recreation is researched prior to the Psi Lab) cannot adequately address the extensive details about psionics, imho, and cutting out the psi sections would cripple the text. Then again, there's a conflict of interest on my part because it's right here on my proofreading queue... Edited March 1, 2005 by Astyanax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 I don't see why adding a short paragraph could not address this appropiately. After all, this is "light" psionics, not aggresive psionics which can control your mind, these are just illusions of the mind, it's not that hard to deduce that psionics are acting.But again, we can go either way, let's hear more opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 light, agressive, whatever, it's still psi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 So?, it's that hard to explain? Psionic Theory is for Psi attacks. After all, you CAN research Psionic Probe at the beginning, so it's pretty much the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astyanax Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 I'm not sure what changing the tech tree entails. If it's a HUGE amount of work, then sure, I'll change the Alien Recreation CT, no problem. But if it's only a small thing, I'd prefer to ask whether it can be done, because the Alien Recreation CT won't have to be limited- it can revel freely its full psionic glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 I'm not sure what changing the tech tree entails. If it's a HUGE amount of work, then sure, I'll change the Alien Recreation CT, no problem. But if it's only a small thing, I'd prefer to ask whether it can be done, because the Alien Recreation CT won't have to be limited- it can revel freely its full psionic glory. <{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's not that big problem, but I don't like it in this case. As I said, the Psionic Probe can be researched without Psionic Lab, so what's the big deal here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astyanax Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 While that's true, I feel the Alien Recreation text would be limited if constraints were put on the psi aspect. Admittedly, it's a whim, but purely for the fine details of the Alien Recreation CT. Instead of speaking vaguely- "we think this, and we suspect that it works by xx", and "we cannot fully fathom the intricacies of this device"- we can speak with certainty- "the xx does this, it works by xx", and "we are frankly stunned at the elegant simplicity of the device." The text would be much stronger for it, imho. Additionally, if Psi Lab is researched first, then the subsequent Alien Recreation CT would be unnecessarily vague. And lastly, I'd prefer the results of research to contain more certainty than uncertainty. But as I said, it is a whim- both are certainly possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Good point with the psi probe - maybe we could tie this, too, into the psi scheme? I mean, with this device, we might get the idea how to make the psionic amplifier. So Psi lab + psi probe = psionic amplifier. But how you would use it? Hmmm... Tough one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Good point with the psi probe - maybe we could tie this, too, into the psi scheme? I mean, with this device, we might get the idea how to make the psionic amplifier. So Psi lab + psi probe = psionic amplifier. But how you would use it? Hmmm... Tough one.<{POST_SNAPBACK}>That has been also discussed before, I would also love to get the psionic scheme more organised, but the problem is that changing into that would effectively slow down your progress to Psionic Amplifier, which is a very important weapon, and we cannot do that yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 hmmm... i guess you're right about this one too. I think i'll just stay out of this, you guys know more of it then I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astyanax Posted March 1, 2005 Report Share Posted March 1, 2005 Yeah, the Psi research is a great deal more important than Alien Recreation, and changes to that tech branch would likely encounter even more resistance. On another note, On my next version of Psi Theory, I'll highlight all the conditional text (references to the Mind Probe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kikanaide Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Did I see right that in the most recent XML we now grant the Alien Missions through the detection of UFO's on those missions (using the equivalent of a [hyperwave decoder]) rather than by capturing a huge string of live navigators? I'm just asking 'cause it's a change, although not one I can say as a player I would object to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astyanax Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 On a side note, weren't the Alien missions discovered through interrogating the live aliens (e.g. Alien Terrorist --> Alien Terror Mission) in the original X-Com? Like Kikanaide, I'm not criticizing the change; it's just a "cool, that's interesting" reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 (people keep criticising, *hmph*) The Tech Tree is in an alpha state right now , I found it more reasonable to receive the info via transmission decoder when you detected such ship... but might not do. It's just kinda illogical that you do need to interrogate a navigator when you've actually already been onboard one of these ships. It can be one way, but if you for example take a landed Terror Ship mission, you gotta learn something from it, I don't suppose the Terror Ship just "vanishes" when you finish the mission, right? that's kinda incoherent, I always found that X-Com3 was more logical in this point, you had to capture the ship and bring it to base in order to study it, what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kikanaide Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 (edited) I can see either way on those two issues, Az. And I think the difference lies in how the CTD's are going to/are reading. Let me explain: 1) The CTD's explain "what" or "how" - makes perfect sense to get this from intercepted transmissions. You might catch bits like "go here, blow this up, bring back this" and from that you can piece together what is going on. 2) The CTD's include info on "why" - since they are unlikely (IMHO) to be giving pep-talks like "remember, we have to do this because _____ so do good and don't screw up because ____ is at stake," it seems that gaining this information through transmission is unlikely. This is the sort of in-depth stuff that you can only get through an interactive conversation (even if he's tied up and you are torturing him, that's still interactive). Regarding the UFO entries, I would frankly thrilled with changing to a successful UFO recovery of each type, but I suppose I would want it to be a research topic (rather than automatic entries) which would mess with game balance...I could deal with it being automatic, I suppose, but if it is as in-depth as most of our CTD's (note that I've never read a UFO CTD) it would seem incongrous to have it be a "soldiers just got back and look what they found" sort of non-researched report. I think we need to consider two things with this, though...1) Capturing live aliens was important in the original, and by reducing the need to capture them we are significantly altering the way the game is played. Yet, 2) I never researched all of the UFO's and I never researched all of the missions, and I still won the game...it looked to me like maybe we've added special topics (I can't tell if they are necessary to win, but they look neat) which require all of those to be researched. If we still require capture, and require those technologies, then we have increased the important of live capture, which increases the difficulty (IMO). In the end, I'm fine with the change, it doesn't bug me and would allow me to capture, mostly, only leaders and commanders...but it is, I think, something that deserves thought depending on all the variables above. edit - I should add that I definitely agree that apoc was more logical in this aspect. And the disappearing terror ship has always annoyed me. Your reasoning is good, I just wanted to draw attention toward a couple possible impacts of the change. Edited May 6, 2005 by Kikanaide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 I guess this is the right place to put this kind of question... azrael, could you explain to me how the XML research tree works? If for example I'm reading it right, you need any one plasma weapon and any one plasma weapon clip to be able to research plasma principles. Is that the right way to read it with those "either" statements in there? and, secondly, is it intentionally done this way? for example, you research plasma pistol & plasma rifle clip, and that alone enables you to develop plasma principles, leading without further requirements to plasma cannon and plasma defence array? For one, I seem to remember that you needed Heavy Plasma and Heavy Plasma Clip to research Plasma Cannon (Plasma Principles is a bonus that didn't exist in the original game anyway). ...also, I would like to softly and carefully suggest that Xenium research be necessary for plasma cannon and plasma defence, since they have to involve some heavy modifications to alien plasma tech (requiring in-depth knowledge of xenium properties) if they are to use little to no xenium for operation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 (edited) Centurion helped me with the Plasma Principles thing, if it's correct (and I believe it is ) you need a plasma weapon and its correspondant clip, not just any clip.About the Xenium and altering the requirements, I've stated my position on that a lot of times, I seriously don't think we are in the position to do so at the moment, neither do we need to right now.About the rest of the XML, it's pretty self-explanatory (I think), there are requirements to be met to be able to resarch something, and once researched it grants something, such as an item (ability to manufacture it) or xnet entry (which is in turn another requirement). If you have any concrete questions, you can PM me. Edited September 25, 2005 by Azrael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted September 25, 2005 Report Share Posted September 25, 2005 ok my main question was the requirements for the plasma principles. "plasma weapon + corresponding clip" sounds reasonable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Does anyone know how to make a graphic version of this? Somewhere easily updatable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 (edited) Then you probably used Visio 2003, right? I guess one of the best alternatives out there are these two:SmartDrawOpenOffice Draw Edit: Azzy, could you please post, for our very pleasure , the latest techtree draft? thanks Edited October 21, 2005 by kafros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 (edited) Edit: Azzy, could you please post, for our very pleasure , the latest techtree draft? thanks<{POST_SNAPBACK}>It's on SVN, and as I posted in my log, since XML is hard to read I wanted to make a graphic version. Then you probably used Visio 2003, right?Dunno what that is, just tried with Word 2003. That looks very good kafros, thanks edit: SmartDraw adds a watermark to force you to purchase it, I'll try OpenOffice (or other means to remove that watermark, as I liked the program ) Edited October 21, 2005 by Azrael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 (edited) It's on SVN, and as I posted in my log, since XML is hard to read I wanted to make a graphic version.Yikez... It seems that I can't enter http://svn.projectxenocide.com/, access forbidden... Could you please post the direct link to that file? It will save me some trouble (downloading Turtoise, installing, setup the download folder etc) Dunno what that is, just tried with Word 2003.http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1473767,00.asp That looks very good kafros, thanks My pleasure edit: SmartDraw adds a watermark to force you to purchase it, I'll try OpenOffice (or other means to remove that watermark, as I liked the program <_>Well, if you have TONS of patience, use the Photoshop CS2 patch tool for that watermark Or, create the diagram you want, and capture a screenshot with ScreenHunter OOo is definitely a nice, free, and adequate solution. Edited October 21, 2005 by kafros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 (edited) Ok, I've found it here http://svn.projectxenocide.com/assets/Creative Text Department/ and downloaded it. May I help you with it? Are there any differences with the html version located in a post above? Edited October 21, 2005 by kafros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Ok, I've found it here http://svn.projectxenocide.com/assets/Creative Text Department/://http://svn.projectxenocide.com/asse...ext Department/://http://svn.projectxenocide.com/asse...ext Department/://http://svn.projectxenocide.com/asse...ext Department/://http://svn.projectxenocide.com/asse...ext Department/and downloaded it. May I help you with it? Are there any differences with the html version located in a post above?<{POST_SNAPBACK}>If you want to you can look for mistakes, I think I got most of them though, and PM them to me, but the general structure is pretty much done, I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted October 21, 2005 Report Share Posted October 21, 2005 Ugh, even with OpenOffice I obviously suck at making these diagrams, it will take me a while (if I manage to do them at all) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 (edited) I've tried different patterns... I even tried a "Human tech - Alien Tech" one, but it was too hard to implement. I've uploaded the latest draft I've been working on. I've thought of a major issue: the "prerequisite arrows". For example, look at Alien Goal:<prerequisite> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_BREEDING"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_PLASMA_PRINCIPLES"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_ABDUCTIONS"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_RESEARCH"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_HARVEST"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_RETALIATION"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_TERROR"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_INFILTRATION"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_THANATOS:_PROJECT_XENOCIDE"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_MEDICAL_ROOM"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_UFO_CONSTRUCTION"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_BASE"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_PSIONIC_AMPLIFIER"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_ALIEN_NUTRIENTS"/> <reference xnetid="XNET_BIOLOGICAL_RESEARCH_ROOM"/> </prerequisite>I already see a horror web, a spaggeti flowchart if you prefer... I think that the flowchart should include the basic stuff. For example: Alien Origins + Paradigm Shift -> Thanatos : Operation Xenocide (correct that in the xml, it says "project" :wink1:) -> Alien Goal At the end of the tree, I could include mini-trees, like the one above for Alien Goal. What's your opinion? Edit : Don't pay too much attention in the "weapons" branch, right now I am looking for a way to implement the most practical but as-complete-as-it-can-be tree. Edited October 26, 2005 by kafros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 That's looking very good, I have thought of something now, about what you said about mini-trees and syntax diagrams I was taught when studying programming. I guess we could divide the tech tree into separate trees, and those in smaller ones, for example, the main tree be the one that leads the research to Cydonia or Bust (Thanatos: Operation Xenocide), this one will include the different ships up to Vengeance, with subtrees that include the weapon research and different facilities. I have gotten a version of SmartDraw (complete), so I'll try to illustrate my thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 (edited) Allright, something closer to my thoughs (and to yours, I hope ): Edited October 26, 2005 by kafros Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 The arrows in the requirements for Alien Goal are inverted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 The arrows in the requirements for Alien Goal are inverted <_ grrr...> Definitely But that's minor right now, first of all, I have to make the scaffold, details come second, aesthetics last (but not least , right mikker? :wink1:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted October 26, 2005 Report Share Posted October 26, 2005 (edited) I have a freeware program called 'grids'. It's ment for flowcharts. I've been using it for schoolwork involving flowcharts. I'll see if I can use the program for this. edit: great. I was half way done with it when it crashed on me. Stupid me didn't save. And the program doesn't do backups. Nice. Edited October 26, 2005 by mikker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 Another draft. As you can see, the "upper section" will include the main flowchart ("this" grands "those"), and the lower one will include the subtrees ("this" needs "those"). 1) Any better ideas for the structure?2) Any idea about those arrows and colours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 1) Any better ideas for the structure?2) Any idea about those arrows and colours? yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 1) Any better ideas for the structure?2) Any idea about those arrows and colours? yes.2)Probably you mean monochrome . I agree with your point1) Hmmm... Definitely, that's a simple structure. And actually, it follows 100% the structure of the XML file. Now, try to implement it with, let's say, Alien Goal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 (edited) 1) Any better ideas for the structure?2) Any idea about those arrows and colours? yes.2)Probably you mean monochrome . I agree with your point1) Hmmm... Definitely, that's a simple structure. And actually, it follows 100% the structure of the XML file. Now, try to implement it with, let's say, Alien Goal Well, I succeeded with making it with plasma weaponry this way OK, hang on. Here. I didn't at all of them. That would basicly mean making the entire Xenocide Tech Tree. It's very easy to modefy the chart once you've made it with this program. But it's very limited. 3 types of boxes, 1 type of writing size and type, and you can only do black stuff (except arrows which turn blue). But that is editable in Paint. Edited October 27, 2005 by mikker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 27, 2005 Report Share Posted October 27, 2005 Well, maybe I over-do it with practicallity and compactity, so that's why I can't fit it in there So, if you don't have a problem with a 7-page-long tech tree which won't include the X-Net folders, then no problem, let it be that way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Any better? I've also noticed something... minor : Hehe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 Ok, these drafts are the last ones before the complete version.Actually, monochrome turned out to be more beautiful . Anyway, I can easily change the colour theme for all the project with 1-click, so that's no problem. I have to admit that the tree seems good. Probably not as organised as the template I've imagined, but this template isn't bad either! Maybe change the arrows a bit... DON'T ask for a specific hierarchy, as you can guess such a thing is IMPOSSIBLE with this template. But, nevertheless, I can fit all information in here with a little bit of effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 (edited) Looks good. One comment; Is it possible to remove the arrows? You might want to remove a few here and there. (and you might want to make the boxes have only 1 size - even though it wastes space, it looks more professional.) Edited October 28, 2005 by mikker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted October 28, 2005 Report Share Posted October 28, 2005 what's that at the bottom about plasma principles, psionic amplifier and alien goal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted October 29, 2005 Report Share Posted October 29, 2005 Looks good. One comment; Is it possible to remove the arrows? You might want to remove a few here and there. (and you might want to make the boxes have only 1 size - even though it wastes space, it looks more professional.)Thanks Which ones? I think that the ones which should be removed are those behind Alien Origins (live aliens) Well, Xenium Reactor, Xenium 122, ANS and Alien Composites will be just like Alien Nutrients, breeding etc. I told you that's a draft, I will work on aesthetics later.what's that at the bottom about plasma principles, psionic amplifier and alien goal? Look at the previous drafts I used the boxes on the bottom of the penultimate draft in order to create the new template. I don't like doing the same thing twice, especially if it involves a lot of typing. Res: ==> Item: ==> X-Net:... and put "Paradigm Shift: Offensive Operations" at the place of ... and do the same for 7 other topics...GIMME A BREAK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafros Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 *Buump! Ouch, my head...* Any progress on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Azrael Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 *Buump! Ouch, my head...* Any progress on this?<{POST_SNAPBACK}>No, but your post reminded me of it, I'm working on it right now, it's nearly finished, will post it later today, probably tonight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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