Grav Shield

[tzuchan]

In this thread,

http://www.xcomufo.com/forums//index.php?s...topic=1721&st=0 ,

Cpt. Boxershorts and GreatGold suggested that instead of using the original grav shields facility, that we try to work with the current UFO Nav CTD in that the aliens use a psionic mind link to control the ship, and we try to disrupt that mind link using some sort of psionic static generator, hopefully buying more time for the weapons to fire twice.

 

GreatGold also pointed out that there were points in the Firestorm as wella s the elerium 115 CTD to support the switch, but I haven't been able to find those points(GreatGold? can you elaborate?)

 

I'm, however, a proponent of the original grav shield facility, and while I can come up with several methods for both of them to be viable defences, I can't help feeling that the nav disruptors don't exactly strike me as a way to keep those battle ships in the sky long enough for you to pound on them one more time.

 

If it were possible to disrupt the link between the pilots and thier ufos, there's still the possibility that they still have manual backups. That won't slow them down much, although it would make them easier to hit. Even if they didn't have fallbacks, wouldn't that mean the ufo would lose control and just crash as soon as it comes into range for the nav disruptor to work? There's also the fact that they have different aliens of varying levels of psionic abilities. There's a very high possibility that while you might be able to jam the connections for mutons and snakemen, the sectiods and ethereals might very well be able to ignore it and keep on coming.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping that everyone can throw in thier opinions.

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

This is an offshoot of the Baseview Assets 2 thread to cover the Grav Shield discussion. Once we get a concensus on how it works, I'll write it up.

 

In the original, the Grav Shield was some sort of focused gravity waves that would repel an attacking ship once, and give your base defences an extra shot at it.

 

However, while the UFO Navigation entry was being discussed, the subject came up. It was suggested that the grav shield actually be a type of psionic disrupter or interference generator (like radio static) that would interfere with the navigator's control of the ship, and cause them to approach and land more slowly and carefully (roughly the equivilent of a psionic flat tire). This would give the defences the extra time to fire, and ties in nicely with the alien navigation.

 

Three main arguments were brought up:

1. All the alien equipment is psionic in some fashion.
    
   Well, yes it is. Even the plasma weapons are psionic to certain degree. While I doubt it started out that way, its become one of the identifying alien traits, similar to the techno-organic look and the iridium sheen. Since the Overmind controls all the aliens psionically (and two of the races are powerful psis), why wouldn't they have lots of psionic technology? It's really not that different in concept from humans having a lot of electrical technology. We use electricy in everything and we can't even control it that well.
    
    
   
2. If we can build a base-sized psionic inhibitor, why not a portable one?
    
   Ah...an easy one! Why can't we build portable mind shields too? Because they're just too bloody big. It's something that requires a small building to fit into. Think of the original computers...it took decades to get them portable.
    
    
   
3. The research tree doesn't hold up.
    
   

   UFO Power source + UFO nav + UFO alloys > Firestorm > Lighting > Avenger > Grav Shield
   
   Aliens with psionic abilities > Psionic abilities > Psi labs > Mind Shields

   
    
   Well, yes...this is a good point. However, I see two possible solutions. Firstly, the easy way out...we just explain it away. SOmething along the lines of "Now that we've built this bloody great spaceship, we noticed this little flaw in the nav systems..."
    
   The other is to converge the research branches....so that Grav Shield requires both Avenger and Mind Shield.
    
   or maybe a combination of the two...
   

-The Captain

 

edit: typos

edit2: Hey, you can bloody well curse in UK English! Bugger the censors!

Edited July 30, 2003 by Cpt. Boxershorts

[tzuchan]

Grumps... and I just started a topic just 20 minutes before you...

 

Anyway, I have a couple more points I want to add, copied over from said thread.

 

If it were possible to disrupt the link between the pilots and thier ufos, there's still the possibility that they still have manual backups. That won't slow them down much, although it would make them easier to hit. Even if they didn't have fallbacks, wouldn't that mean the ufo would lose control and just crash as soon as it comes into range for the nav disruptor to work? There's also the fact that they have different aliens of varying levels of psionic abilities. There's a very high possibility that while you might be able to jam the connections for mutons and snakemen, the sectiods and ethereals might very well be able to ignore it and keep on coming.

[miceless]

In the original, the Grav Shield was some sort of focused gravity waves that would repel an attacking ship once, and give your base defences an extra shot at it.

People should be more careful about how they word that statement. As i recall, the idea was that the grav shield slows the alien craft down with grav fields so that the defense get time to fire again. It does not throw the alien ship all the way back to the 'start' once it gets really close. Unfortunately, the gameplay setup makes it look like this.

 

However, while the UFO Navigation entry was being discussed, the subject came up.  It was suggested that the grav shield actually be a type of psionic disrupter or interference generator (like radio static) that would interfere with the navigator's control of the ship, and cause them to approach and land more slowly and carefully (roughly the equivilent of a psionic flat tire).  This would give the defences the extra time to fire, and ties in nicely with the alien navigation.

Makes sense to me. Along the same lines as the original, but in line with out new themes. But again, be very careful about how you word this.

 

Three main arguments were brought up:

1. All the alien equipment is psionic in some fashion.

 

Well, yes it is.  Even the plasma weapons are psionic to certain degree.  While I doubt it started out that way, its become one of the identifying alien traits, similar to the techno-organic look and the iridium sheen.  Since the Overmind controls all the aliens psionically (and two of the races are powerful psis), why wouldn't they have lots of psionic technology?  It's really not that different in concept from humans having a lot of electrical technology.  We use electricy in everything and we can't even control it that well.

I completely agree. I see absolutely no problem with this whatsoever. It makes good sense in fact.

 

 

2. If we can build a base-sized psionic inhibitor, why not a portable one?

 

Ah...an easy one! Why can't we build portable mind shields too?  Because they're just too bloody big.  It's something that requires a small building to fit into.  Think of the original computers...it took decades to get them portable.

Indeed. Easy. End of problem.

 

 

3. The research tree doesn't hold up.

 

UFO Power source + UFO nav + UFO alloys > Firestorm > Lighting > Avenger > Grav Shield

Aliens with psionic abilities > Psionic abilities > Psi labs > Mind Shields

 

Well, yes...this is a good point.  However, I see two possible solutions.

Actually, i dont see a problem. It still seems to make sense to me...

 

Firstly, the easy way out...we just explain it away.  SOmething along the lines of "Now that we've built this bloody great spaceship, we noticed this little flaw in the nav systems..."

This is actually pretty self explanitory to me. If you really feel we need to explain it then this would be the way to do it. I mean, now that we have all this experience with our nav system, why shouldnt we design a way to block theirs?

 

The other is to converge the research branches....so that Grav Shield requires both Avenger and Mind Shield.

Possible, but not necessary in my opinion. I would only do this if nobody else is of my opinion.

 

or maybe a combination of the two...

-The Captain

Some kind of compromise could well be achieved is enough people complain. Myself, i see no problems.

 

edit2: Hey, you can bloody well curse in UK English!  Bugger the censors!

Dont say that or those buggers will add the English curses to the bloody filter too!

 

EDIT: Typos

Edited July 30, 2003 by miceless

[j'ordos]

I've merged Tzuchan's and Cpt Boxershort's threads as they have a similar subject.

[miceless]

Yes, you see I dont have the power to do that kind of thing...

<looks around so he can glare at Micah or Stewart>

[GreatGold]

If it were possible to disrupt the link between the pilots and thier ufos, there's still the possibility that they still have manual backups.

We havent built a back-up system into their Nav controls. It seems to me that would be way to old-school. These guys are advanced, and if they have had success crossing interstellar space one way for who kows how long, why add something they have no need for.

That won't slow them down much, although it would make them easier to hit. Even if they didn't have fallbacks, wouldn't that mean the ufo would lose control and just crash as soon as it comes into range for the nav disruptor to work?

I think we just arent understanding eachother. I used this example before, and I'll ellaboroate on it. When an aircraft looses its radar (think of the radar as the nav control on the UFO), the airplane doesnt crash - it just needs more time to find its way to its destination. The Grav Sheild as its been planned, only interferes with the aliens Nav unit, we havent decided how yet, to the point where their control of the craft becomes more diffficult. Not lost completely. So now instead of the craft comming at your base at (make believe speed) mach 3, its mach 1. Giving you more time fire your defensive weapons.

 

Im late for work work, again, I'll respond some more tonight.

Gold

[miceless]

I have to say I agree with GG here.

[[dipstick]]

In the original, the Grav Shield was some sort of focused gravity waves that would repel an attacking ship once, and give your base defences an extra shot at it.

This could EASILY be tied in. These waves prevent the UFO from coming within 2km/mi of the grav shielded facility. Unfortunately, as it is still in the experimental stages the aliens can usually penetrate the field on the second attempt. (This could leave the door open for 3 or 4 shots from the defenses! :whatwhat: :: Maybe 75% of the time it takes aliens 2 tries, 10% 3 tries, and 5% 4 times. To compensate the remaining 10% of the time it fails!)

[miceless]

I think the idea of slowing down the UFO is better than the idea of pushing it away once it gets close.

 

Imagine the forces needed to 'throw' a very large UFO a reasonable distance.

[Breunor]

Here's a suggestion for how the grav shield works. Since you can't research it until you've researched various alien techs, you can assume that the alien navigation system has been studied enough to discover the alien equivalent to the gyroscope systems used. Even if the aliens use some type of psi interface, I think the nav system itself would not be psi dependant. Say there is some type of "gyroscope" that is receiving input from various sources-gravity, GPS-like info from the Mars base, etc. The grav shield could be designed to specifically inhibit or disrupt that input, and the ufo automatically starts correcting its flight path due to the disruption. It would start many tiny changes in directional thrust, causing a nasty ride until the aliens switch to manual control. It would slow them down enough for the defenses to fire a second time. I picture Star Trek:TNG, where they lose inertial dampeners and everybody gets tossed around. They don't expect it, and they have to recover. Imagine if it's not just a loss of the dampeners, but a reversal of them and they get thrown around the cockpit for a while. They fianlly crawl back to their seats/regain control and go to manual. It could be explained that the grav shield uses a huge amount of power to function, and the only way to power it is with some type of capacitor that can store the accumulated power for it. The grav shield fires, discharging the cells, causing the disruption for maybe 5-10 seconds. This is long enough for the base defenses to reload/recharge and fire a second time.

[miceless]

Thats basically along the lines of what were going for. I dont think we need to go into too much depth about capacitors and charges, as you can just say its permanently on, but only slows them down. Otherwise, why not have two capacitors?

[Fred the Goat]

It could also just create a reverse-gravity layer, that the alien ship isn't expecting. They're putting on their landing thrusters, and suddenly they pop back, and have to try again, meanwhile getting shot at. I don't really think it matters. All these ideas would work with the proper explanation. Personally, I like the original grav shield that just slows them down. The fancy new psi disruptor would work, too, but it's a little too fancy for my taste. I dunno. Whatever.

 

[EDIT]

 

On the other hand, it IS original and cool without betraying the flavor of the original game. Bah, it's a tossup.

Edited July 30, 2003 by Fred the Goat

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

According to the original UFOPaedia entry,

 

The Gravity shield repels alien craft attempting to land near the base long enough for all defenses to fire again.  In practice, this will double the effectiveness of any defense systems at your base.

 

To me at least, it sounds like they bounce and then come back. I still prefer it being a passive defense like the mind shield...it's always on, and inteferes somehow with the speed or piloting of the craft.

 

As for powering it, we can jsut say it uses a couple of kilowatts an hour or something (maybe that's why it's so expensive to maintain..you're paying the power bill too).

 

-The Captain

 

ps: Tzuchan, I didn't realize you had started a thread too, sorry. I probably took too long typing.

[miceless]

I think the key words in there are "... long enough..." as in its always on and not a one shot wonder.

 

Repel:

To ward off or keep away; drive back: repel insects.

To offer resistance to; fight against: repel an invasion.

To refuse to accept; reject: a company that was trying to repel a hostile takeover.

To turn away from; spurn.

To cause aversion or distaste in: Your rudeness repels everyone. See Synonyms at disgust. See Usage Note at repulse.

To be resistant to; be incapable of absorbing or mixing with: Oil repels water.

Physics. To present an opposing force to; push back or away by a force: Electric charges of the same sign repel one another.

 

v. intr.

To offer a resistant force to something.

To cause aversion or distaste: behavior that repels.

 

I think its all about resistance...

Edited July 30, 2003 by miceless

[Vaaish]

Have you guys nailed this down enough for me to start on the model?

[Cpt. Boxershorts]

Yeah, I think so. We can adapt the description to match whatever it looks like.

 

I can't wait to see it.

 

The Captain

[miceless]

We can always do some more nailing if you want.

 

Do let us know when you get something you can show us.

[Astyanax]

Dan2 continues to make wonderful contributions to the CTD... now if only he could post here...

 

Although seems pretty difficult to stop a huge ship from advancing, after some thought I realized stopping just the power reactors inside the ship would be a better explanation.

 

Now, there are several ways to stop a Xenium-deuterium fusion reactor from functioning.

 

[Magnetic Shield]

One is magnetically, when a powerful magnetic field unexpectedly shifts the hot plasma inside the reactor and the emergency systems bring the reactor off-line before the reactor explodes. That would leave the ship with just inertial speed, so there is enough time for defences to fire a second round. Unfortunately that huge magnetic field disrupts fusion reactors inside the base, too, so generation of a second magnetic pulse is impossible due to lack of enough power. Also, construction of a second shield would not accomplish anything more since one pulse can be generated during the assault.

 

[Neutrino Shield]

A powerful neutrino burst originating from the base would interact with the antineutrinos generated from the Xenium-deuterium fusion reaction and a sudden increase of the plasma temperature is forcing an automated shut-down procedure for any fusion reactor in the vicinity of the base. The rest of the story is as above.

 

[Graviton Shield]

As above, but this time gravitons strongly inhibit/activate the fusion reactions. I don't like this one since it's not proved scientifically.

[Astyanax]

Magnetic Interefence: The interfering with magnetic containment aspect really piques my interest; instead of causing external damage, hostile craft would be damaged from within. That's a neat touch. Also, it comes complete with a good idea about why it can only be fired once, but maybe mention that firing of the mag shield must be coordinated with the temporary shutdown of the base's reactors? However, in the original X-Com, aren't multiple Grav Shields more effective (each repelling the UFO once). If that's the case, you might say that each Grav Shield facility contains an ultra-capacity capacitor (er...) that allows it to fire once before requiring a relatively long recharge?

 

Neutrino Shield: I'm not entirely sure we can aim neutrinos very well? In any case, how do we generate neutrinos aside from particle accelerators (I'm not really sure here either)? In any case, the first idea is my favorite.

 

Graviton Shield: Likewise, I prefer the CTs to have some basis in fact, although I'm sure we could put together some decent technobabble.

 

-Asty

p.s. there are some threads here that have been kicked back to Active: Creative Text for extensive revision, Dan2. Check them out if you have a chance!

[Robo Dojo 58]

I wrote up a CTD about this. The grav shield is a facility with a gigantic, modified Xenium engine. It's designed to create powerful gravity ripples (tidal forces, whatever you want to call it) over a remarkable distance, to interfere with the opposing UFO. Considerable engine power and pilot control are required to travel through the affected air space, and the UFO has to slow down to progress. The process is very painful on the grav shield, and there's no way 2 active facilities could hope to affect the same airspace at the same time, never mind staying active for long.

 

I suppose a gigantic device which disrupts UFO airspace may be a little excessive, as opposed to attacking the alien power source itself. But it certainly is cooler, IMO.

 

The final hybrid craft is a prerequesite to get the grav shield. So, to keep the tech tree straight, some discovery in making that craft made the grav shield possible. The craft (Nova, I think?) isn't so much about throwing together pieces of alien tech, as it is building custom hybrid tech from the ground up. So there must be immense knowledge about alien technology at that point. Just be sure to keep that in mind, if you want to include other ideas about how the Grav shield works.

 

Also, there is some dispute over how many grav facilities a base can have. In the versions I've played, (PSX and DOS...1.4?)you can not stack grav shields to increase their effect. So however you're hindering the UFO, it should be something that matches whether or not the facilities can stack.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Robo Dojo 58

[Guest Azrael]

Changing the whole operation of the Grav Shield, as tempting as it sounds to me, can be a little complicated. Why?, because the Grav Shield text is complete and changing the operation would be equal to rewriting the whole text, thus scrapping the whole text. The author might hurt you, but aside that, it would have been a nice idea before the text was actually written, now, well, I'd think it five times before scrapping a perfectly nice looking text. Don't get me wrong, I'd absolutely love to change the functionality, as the grav shield was already in X-Com 1, a complete change of how it works would be awesome

[Astyanax]

Oops, I didn't realize that the Grav Shield had a CT already. Sorry peeps. Edited February 24, 2005 by Astyanax

[Guest Azrael]

Grav Shield is Robo Dojo IIRC, if he expresses his will to rewrite it, I can arrenge things , if not, it stays right where it is

[Robo Dojo 58]

Heheh, just do a search on my name and grav shields!

Here ya go: http://www.xcomufo.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3211&st=35

 

I guess I'd be a little hurt if the CTD were changed, and it's probably not the best idea to change the CTDs at this point. But, I don't see a problem with further discussion on the grav shield. There is more leniency in how the facility can work, considering how strange it is, as opposed to other CTDs.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Robo Dojo 58

[Robo Dojo 58]

Hmm... I was wondering, should my entry have more technobabble? More detail on how it achieves it's effect, or maybe describe some of the tech that went into it?

 

I'm not hot on going into detail about processes that essentialy have been invented for this game. But I wouldn't mind talking about how the device itself was made to be so large and powerful.

Edited February 24, 2005 by Robo Dojo 58

[Astyanax]

Well, changes won't be made without your consent, Robo Dojo (well, maybe small proofreading changes, but nothing as drastic as you might be worried about), so rest assured.

 

I found your Grav Shield CT amidst the Phase 1 texts... it just slipped my mind and I didn't realize there were two threads about it. Sorry 'bout that.

[Guest Azrael]

Well, changes won't be made without your consent, Robo Dojo (well, maybe small proofreading changes, but nothing as drastic as you might be worried about), so rest assured.

 

I found your Grav Shield CT amidst the Phase 1 texts... it just slipped my mind and I didn't realize there were two threads about it.   Sorry 'bout that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I should have closed this to avoid me the trouble

[Guest Azrael]

Since there are still many texts left active, this text will remain in Complete as it is good as it is, since this is no longer open for discussion, this thread is closed and will be moved. Edited February 27, 2005 by Azrael

[Robo Dojo 58]

Well, I doubt I'd be able to do the other possible ideas justice. If someone wants to propose another text, that's fine by me. We could then pick the one that works the best.