Aosar Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I tought that this dilemma should be desided by a "vote..." Personally I think that the Mutons should at the very least be clever and cunning warriors... What do you think? Emphasize(sp?)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j'ordos Posted August 4, 2003 Share Posted August 4, 2003 I believe they should be good at one thing, and one thing alone: combat. Nothing more, nothing less...(They may favor frontal assaults over sneaky attacks in the rear, but at least they should be good at what they do) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglachel Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I figure they would be like Antonio Banderaz (sp?) in The Mask of Zorro when he was asked if he knew how to use a sword. "Of course, pointy end goes into the other man." They might not know the workings of plasma, but something like a hunters instinct is needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miceless Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I would not say they are geniuses (except in battle) but I would not say they are extremely stupid. You cant really be a good soldier unless you have at least decent intelligence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jim69 Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Good at killing, but otherwise stupid. They shouldn't be the greatest tactitions in the world, but they shouldn't just charge at u either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge_Deadd Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 Wise! Intellignet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demich Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 They are very good tacticians - they are clever, they prefer "war" knowledge instead of academic knowledge. In this case they are in oposite to etherals. They don't know how blaster luncher works but know how to use it with more devastating effect Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Squad Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 (edited) Aosar . U just couldnt leave it be. IMO They are still stupid. :alienmad: Edited August 5, 2003 by Raven Squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aosar Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 Aosar . U just couldnt leave it be. IMO They are still stupid. Yeah, I never could and I never will. I'll stop only when I'm dead, but probably not even then... And if I am right you voted; "no?" Ha HA HAR! Thus I succeeded in a great psychological trick, by woting "yes" instead of "no" wich is what I was running for(okay, I accidentally voted wrong, like it hasn't happened to you... Right?)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Squad Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 (edited) I actually voted the third option, but dont tell anyone Edited August 5, 2003 by Raven Squad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aosar Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 TIMMY! So currently Mutons are bad donkey warriors that rule the battle field, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt. Boxershorts Posted August 5, 2003 Share Posted August 5, 2003 I always saw as sort of like the Kzin (See Larry Niven's Known Space books). Reasonbly bright, but not genius level by any stretch of the imagination. Their main advantages are being big, strong, well armored and more violent than their opponents. To stick with the Kzin theory of stategy, Mutons start with "scream and leap" as the basic plan (ie: attack on sight), and then fall back to "feint and pounce" (try to distact them, and then charge). -The captain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aosar Posted August 5, 2003 Author Share Posted August 5, 2003 bad donkey warriors On a strange level that amuses me to no end... To stick with the Kzin theory of stategy, Mutons start with "scream and leap" as the basic plan (ie: attack on sight), and then fall back to "feint and pounce" (try to distact them, and then charge). Hmm, personally I'd like to see them use tad bit more advanced tactics though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolp Posted November 25, 2003 Share Posted November 25, 2003 How about the muton's pretty much just charge you, but they can throw your people if they don't have armor. So suddenly your walking along a seemingly empty road in a terror site. You haven't seen any enemies, and you are starting to wonder. You stop being as careful with your troops, and you are just moving them as far as TU allow... Suddenly 3 mutons run out of the shadows, and pick up 3 of your soldiers and throw them at another soldier, effectively killing 3 soldiers and injuring 3 other soldiers... It would be a whole 'nother ball game if you had to worry about your people getting thrown around, suddenly you would be as careful as with a crystallid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 I voted for the third option. Why? I've always seen the mutons as the embodiment of the ultimate warrior. Strong, fast, wily and will not go down no matter what you throw at them. I say they'd prefer a direct assault route coupled with a pincer attack. Depending on the circumstances two or three directly charge weapons firing (which should worry any xcom player) and then another attack comes from two more flanking round either side. By the time the player has dealt with the main assault they'll have two more laying down crossfire on their wounded operatives. Coupled with their high tolerance for taking damage it should be enough for any player Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 Until the Psi amp starts being used... Actually, Mutons aren't that bad, just douse them with heavy plasma fire and they go down nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gutter Monkey Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I think it would be cool if Mutons acted smarter if a live Etherial was on the map as well. The origonal game said they acted as foot soldiers for Etherials, and that they had a psicic link that was essental to thier survival and communication, but the gameplay never built on this. Perhaps Mutons attack head on, but making good use of cover and popout attacks when they are alone, but if there is an Ethierial around they start doing things like flanking moves, setting ambushes, using supression fire, etc. And while they aren't genuses, they should definately not be treated as idoits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikker Posted December 7, 2003 Share Posted December 7, 2003 for 1.0, there will never be any ethereals nearby [spoiler!!!!] unless you are on Cydonia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 i agree on that they should know how to handle a gun. I just can't picture myself a muton readin' a book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 But can you picture a muton using advanced tactics such as feints and pincer movements against you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Dojo 58 Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 I think Mutons should be about as smart as the easterlings from Lord of the Rings. The only things a Muton would need to know is fighting, tactics, and fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenebrae Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 (edited) The muton would be best used(and we even could put that into some alien research) as your old run o' the mill grunt. Strong, smart enough to understand that if you pull the trigger and point that thing into your enemy it kills him, but not some guy who would stop in the middle of battle to discuss phenomena like plasma or laser. To add to his semi-brutality we could add reports of X-Corps operatives who'd seen the mutons going berzerk and had to retreat when facing their fury. "And then I just saw Rookie Gomez trying to stun what seemed to us as their commander...the next minute I knew it 10 of those things came out of nowhere and were blasting their guns at us and showing their teeth in menacing way, a way I hadn't seen before. Rookie Gomez was KIA shortly after(in a most gruesome way) and I'd rather have my squad retreat into the Skyranger(which I diligently did) than to have to face that kind of raw fury and lose all my men. Squaddie, sorry...Sergeant Robertson, Rookie Smith and myself were wounded during the retreat. " - Robert Woodrow, Captain, recently awarded the Blood Cross - X-Corps Edited December 26, 2003 by Tenebrae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 Mutons are Genetically modified right? so their makers would make them smart so they dont get slaughtered in battle, but because they are so strong they dont want them deciding to rebel or anything so they make them pure predatorial instinct rather than intellegence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathskull Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 They need to be smart enough to pilot a complex ufo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 And intelligent enough to use advanced tactics. Mutons are supposed to be the ultimate soldier (imo); strong, intelligent, fast, tough to kill, and completely loyal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 if they were intelligent why would they let themselves be used as gruntz without any resistance, wouldn't they be ever so slightly peed off.maybe they have behaviour control implants, or they are not smart just instinctive, they know that if they sneak up behind u that u dont run but they dont know why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RustedSoul Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 well, i would relate their intelligence to that similar of a human soldier. Only that their role is more instinctive/appropriate based on their genetic makeup. Like an ants nestqueen> worker> soldier each having the required intelligence to conduct their role in the colony efficiently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChonkE Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 I agree that they would exhibit forms of intelligence relating to martial fields. Soldiering, operation/maintenance of weapons, advanced infantry tactics, combat measures, ect. As to why they wouldnt exhibit academic intelligence they could be raised in a combat training environment from birth. Much like the Spartans sent their male children to learn the arts of war, conditioning ect. A warrior caste of sorts like Rusted was saying with the hive mentality. Education of science, engineering and other such concepts is "discouraged" or perhaps thought to be menial tasks for such "great" warriors. Another explanation could be brainwashing/socialization methods used by the aliens to make an unwavering, high motivated soldier out of a Muton. Like Frank Herbert's Dune when Hawat talked about the Fremen; play on their superior physical skills and upbringing, deprive them and show them the perks (More cow meat!) of being a good soldier ect. The warrior caste system would seem much more logical in my opinion but either *could* be a possible explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 ect????or etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 13, 2004 Share Posted January 13, 2004 Personally i think it would ruin the gameplay to have all the aliens smart. there needs to be variation like uber strong, instinctive killers that cant do maths, and the frail less combat skilled but superdy duper smart boffin etherials.with the sectoids etc. in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aosar Posted January 24, 2004 Author Share Posted January 24, 2004 Well, consider this; the state and norms of a society are what essentially a individual's "intelligence" is formed upon. Humans atleast adjust very well to their enviorment and society. For instance, there is both great difference in the technological "intelligence" with today and a couple centuries ago. And then there is the "sub-cultures" that morph our intelligence as well. For instance, we - computer geeks, nerds, gamers - understand computers much better than say a professional athlete would. So since the alien overlords have ripped the Mutons out of whatever their "normal" society might have been. They have not been able to adjust into anything else than combat and military life. There for, they are intelligent in combat, but have knowledge of nothing else, wich makes them appear less intelligent that the average human soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Exactly wot I thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fux0r666 Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Intelligence as ability to adapt to societal norms is an interesting postulation, but how are the mutons unlike our own military? The military is a very strict, stringeant culture where divergence is punished harshly. If anything, the focus on military conquest would necessarily produce a certain proficiency at it. Moreover, they are at least rudimentarily capable of piloting a spacecraft and operating various technological devices and weapons. If anything, I think that the mutons would be fit for the role for which they were developed for (in terms of augmentation, development and control) and they would be the best species out of all of the species in their hegemony at what they do. Whether or not the mutons succeed in intelligence tests is a moot point. You have to consider their willingness to participate in experiments. Since they are violent, and since they die without a psychic link, I doubt they would be up for the challenge. At best the data gathered would be incomplete. 'Alien-like' intelligent species on planet earth are still a mystery to us. What is the intelligence of a Dolphin or an elephant? Both have very complex cultures and at least rudimentary forms of language... but their morphology is so different that it would be impossible to impose a human measure of intelligence on them with the hopes gathering meaningful data. I think that there should be mention of their cunningness in battle and ability to perform complex tactical operations and such, and play up the non-humanness, violence and aggressiveness of the alien... for instance, their absolute and violent contempt for their confinement and the fact that they try to attack any of their captors who present the slightest opportunity until the moment of their death... but mentioning whether they are smart or stupid is explaining too much for a number of reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicAndy Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 being clever in battle is completely different to being adept at battle. mutons should be fairly stupid but not completley dumb, nor should they have exellent battle inteligence and tactics. Rather, speed, strength, skill with weapons and being-extremely-hard, are their natural advantages. They'll run straight at ya in a battle, because they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I would rather that they know everything about advanced tactics, but don't know how to do anything not related to combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puasonen Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I can see what you mean MagicAndy, being a tactical master needs a lot of brains so it's kinda weird that they would be completely stupid in everything else. And you need common sense in battle too! But I still have to agree with facehugger, it's still cooler that they are masters of the battlefield but otherwise idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I reckon everybody is agreeing on this one, it may be 'inpolitically' correct to think of some aliens being dumb @rses but thats how the first game portrayed them and thats what every one seems to want.So we are in agreement, they are intelligent killers, highly insinctorial and tacticful while being unable to use an abacus. agreed? just to contradict myself: weren't there muton engineers, navigators etc in Xcom1? if so then we may have to rethink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Those 'mutons' don't pilot the ship/repair it with their own skills, they have a psionic link to an etherial nav/engie that provides them with instructions. (Now cut that wire, NO! Not that wire!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 aha I see. Thanxs.so once again we all agree goodyBTW who is doing the muton CTD (cant be @rsed to look) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 BTW who is doing the muton CTD (cant be @rsed to look)I believe that Aosar is working on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aosar Posted January 27, 2004 Author Share Posted January 27, 2004 Well, it's done, or atleast hanging untill we get some art to base the CTD on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puasonen Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Well muton navigators and engineers know something that a complete idiot wouldn't know. It will be hard to explain why it is so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Nyyp, look above, Those 'mutons' don't pilot the ship/repair it with their own skills, they have a psionic link to an etherial nav/engie that provides them with instructions. (Now cut that wire, NO! Not that wire!) I think thats the explanation you were looking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo Dojo 58 Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 IIRC, the navigation system is extremely intuitive. If you ARE the UFO, learning to fly it will be as easy as learning to walk. Cyber enhancements would help here, too. Engineer Mutons could have cyber enhancements, that let them know how to repair the engines. Or it could just give the muton instructions. Mutons are very much like soldiers, they don't need to be smart to follow orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aosar Posted January 27, 2004 Author Share Posted January 27, 2004 Mutons are very much like soldiers, they don't need to be smart to follow orders. True, but optimal execution of those orders needs atleast average intelligence. We should focus more on the single track mind of the Mutons, battle - battle - eat - battle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kamikazee Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I always imagined mutons as super strong (maybe moderatly intelligent) super soldiers. They will not act smart as in hiding behind a wall and shooting, they will do whatever is neccassary to complete their orders, even if this means doing the opposite to what their common sense tells them. they just follow orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puasonen Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 So if you capture a muton navigator, how does he know how to explain everything that is needed to get a hyperwave decoder? Why are they talking at all? They are almost like machines, they feel no pain or at least can take all the pain they get! Why are they telling us any information at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpl. Facehugger Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 Psychic probes. Well, there is other methods of extracting information...We can always starve them to death. Or something else... Please note: My explanation is only my opinion. It isn't the true Xcom Canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicAndy Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 Well, there is other methods of extracting information...We can always starve them to death. Or something else... yeah like manipulation, see my thread on alien entertainment in the UFOpedia section Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puasonen Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 yeah like manipulation, see my thread on alien entertainment in the UFOpedia sectionyes, I was actually thinking about that.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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